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The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: 2P Hero interaction: Merry & Brand Son of Bain rss

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kimchi fried rice
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So i was dual wielding a solo game playing around with various hobbit builds, when i came across a 2 player hero interaction that made question my interpretation of the rules between these two heroes.

Merry's hero ability reads as follows:
Response: After Merry participates in an attack that destroys an enemy, ready another character that participated in that attack.


Brand's hero ability reads as follows:
Response: Ranged. After Brand son of Bain attacks and defeats an enemy engaged with another player, choose and ready one of that player's characters.


So Brand participates in a ranged attack with Merry killing an enemy. Merry readies Bard because of his ability, then it would seem Bard would in turn ready Merry.

Unless I have my rules mixed up, it would seem a mob of any size with 6 health or less (assuming 0 defense) falls in one combat turn to this ever-readying combat duo (assuming Merry is teamed up with 2 other hobbit heroes for an attack strength of 3)

Does that sound right? Feels way OP to me as the only enemies that slow me down are bosses or enemies with unusually large amounts of HP or defense.

Thanks in advance for the insight!
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James Ludlow
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You are not breaking any rules.
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PC ichigo
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Brand son of Bain's effect is happened with you attack and defeat an enemy engaged with another player.

So, if you play solo, then Brand effect is never happen (unless you play as 2 or more player by yourself).

If that is the case, assume that Brand is in different player team (to make this effect happen). Then what would happen is the enemy on Hobbit team side is likely to die very quickly, while enemy that engage Brand player will keep gathering more and more. (Since you will use Brand to help Hobbit side for effect)

Hope this help. : )
 
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Mighty Rauros
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Wow. Combine this with The Hammer-Stroke (Encounter Action: Engage Each Enemy in Play) and something to stop your enemies from actually attackig you (a few options) and you have a pretty amazing combo for enemy-heavy scenarios.
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pcichigo wrote:
Brand son of Bain's effect is happened with you attack and defeat an enemy engaged with another player.

So, if you play solo, then Brand effect is never happen (unless you play as 2 or more player by yourself).

If that is the case, assume that Brand is in different player team (to make this effect happen). Then what would happen is the enemy on Hobbit team side is likely to die very quickly, while enemy that engage Brand player will keep gathering more and more. (Since you will use Brand to help Hobbit side for effect)

Hope this help. : )


yes, playing 2 handed here.

i've been kitting samwise with all sorts of defensive buffs (gondorian shield/steward, hobbit cloak, boots of erebor, multiple fast hitches, etc.) to make him effective for multiple defends with as much as 6 defense (with his +1 def for higher engagement enemies). the fact he readies after questing when engaging higher threat enemies is just gravy.

couple samwise with sentinel defense from someone like beregond or aragorn (any strong defender really) on brand's team, it forms a solid wall to strike back hard from behind.

i've always found combat heavy quests challenging, but i feel like this Brand/Merry combo changes things in some profound ways.

can't wait to try it this weekend on some against the shadow scenarios.
thanks for confirming all!

jrsinor wrote:
Wow. Combine this with The Hammer-Stroke (Encounter Action: Engage Each Enemy in Play) and something to stop your enemies from actually attackig you (a few options) and you have a pretty amazing combo for enemy-heavy scenarios.


yeah i've been using son of arnor and one or two other events that allow the hobbits to get engagement priority to help enable this. but hammer-stroke takes this to the next level. thanks for suggesting that!
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Milen Krastev
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pcichigo wrote:
Brand son of Bain's effect is happened with you attack and defeat an enemy engaged with another player.

So, if you play solo, then Brand effect is never happen (unless you play as 2 or more player by yourself).

If that is the case, assume that Brand is in different player team (to make this effect happen). Then what would happen is the enemy on Hobbit team side is likely to die very quickly, while enemy that engage Brand player will keep gathering more and more. (Since you will use Brand to help Hobbit side for effect)

Hope this help. : )


He is already breaking the rules, why not using the response. Its house rules anyway
 
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Scott Wheelock
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You found a good use for Brand!

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Rob Jennings
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Too bad it's hard to play thicket of spears in your all-hobbit deck! Otherwise, you could drop the hammerstroke in the staging step in order to ignore the threat of all the enemies, then use thicket of spears to make all of them not attack, and use merry/brand to slaughter them all. As long as we're making up impossible scenarios, let's throw in Hama also in order to get some recursion on those events.

Edit: Actually, this might work if you can keep the number of enemies down. If all you have is two enemies to deal with, then for the first one you attack with merry, hama, and brand, ready hama and brand. For the second one you attack with hama and brand. If merry is your only hobbit, that's an attack of 7 on the first guy, 6 on the second, assuming no daggers of westernesse or other attack boosts. Playing thicket of spears and the hammerstroke each turn will get expensive fast, but you only have to play them on turns where there are enough enemies to matter. If you can block or quest through them, then you don't have to play out the whole combo.

If you have Thalin in one of the parties, then every enemy will start with some damage already. You could turn the quest into a real meat grinder for the enemy, and minimize the amount of willpower you need and the number of defenders you have to hold back at the same time!
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sechen_rob wrote:
Otherwise, you could drop the hammerstroke in the staging step in order to ignore the threat of all the enemies...

The Hammer-stroke is an Encounter Action, so it can only be played during the Encounter phase.
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Rob Jennings
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AdmiralACF wrote:

The Hammer-stroke is an Encounter Action, so it can only be played during the Encounter phase.


Right, right. Stupid rules getting in the way of cards being broken!
 
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Marko Dobranic
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You can use attachment Dunedain Cache (from The Dead Marshes AP) to make Merry ranged. In 2-4 player game, they can together destroy most enemies in 1 round. Pretty powerful
 
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yeah i was messing around with this some more and i concur, it's pretty insane.

looks like Brand Son of Bain and Merry have become my new MVPs in the Against the Shadow cycle!
 
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Mighty Rauros
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sechen_rob wrote:
Too bad it's hard to play thicket of spears in your all-hobbit deck! Otherwise, you could drop the hammerstroke in the staging step in order to ignore the threat of all the enemies, then use thicket of spears to make all of them not attack, and use merry/brand to slaughter them all. As long as we're making up impossible scenarios, let's throw in Hama also in order to get some recursion on those events.

Edit: Actually, this might work if you can keep the number of enemies down. If all you have is two enemies to deal with, then for the first one you attack with merry, hama, and brand, ready hama and brand. For the second one you attack with hama and brand. If merry is your only hobbit, that's an attack of 7 on the first guy, 6 on the second, assuming no daggers of westernesse or other attack boosts. Playing thicket of spears and the hammerstroke each turn will get expensive fast, but you only have to play them on turns where there are enough enemies to matter. If you can block or quest through them, then you don't have to play out the whole combo.

If you have Thalin in one of the parties, then every enemy will start with some damage already. You could turn the quest into a real meat grinder for the enemy, and minimize the amount of willpower you need and the number of defenders you have to hold back at the same time!


Thalin, Legolas, Rain of Arrows, Beoring Beekepers, and (if it gets desperate) Boromir (tactics) could all add a lot to the mix.

What if one player was mono-tactics and the other was tactics + a blend of something? Or would it be even possible to make two mono-tactics decks work?
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King Theoden sure helps make that a possibility with his WP boost, at least until he buys your heroes enough time to bring in allies to help carry the questing duties.

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Mighty Rauros
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Great point! And you can switch things to Battlefield, if needed
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Andrew Dickie

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I'm wondering if you need to parse your card text a little more carefully.

Specifically, "participates in an attack that destroys" (Merry) differs from "attacks and destroys" (Brand Son of Bain Son of Bard).

This would seem to imply, to me anyway, that BSoBSoB needs to attack solo in order to trigger his ability.
 
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Douglas Tempel
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He does not need to attack solo. From the FAQ (p. 9):

"Q: Can Brand son of Bain (SoM 72) trigger his
response if he participates in a ranged attack that
defeats an enemy engaged with another player instead
of declaring the attack himself ?
A: Yes. Declaring an attack and participating in an
attack are both subsets of attacking. In both cases
Brand attacks and can trigger his response if the enemy
is defeated."
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Richard Morris
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A J Dickie wrote:
I'm wondering if you need to parse your card text a little more carefully.
Generally, No. FFG have done a very, very poor job of being consistent with wording and terminology. They simply did not seem to realise how important it was until after they released a pile of cards and were flooded with (fairly obvious) questions.

So what you have to do is be prepared to accept that there are going to be multiple interpretations, and that you need to keep up to date with FAQs. Or, alternatively, decide for yourself on the spot: many of the FFG responses feel like they were made with about 15 nanoseconds of thought.

This is a very good game, despite (as well as because of) FFG. Had they done the sort of thorough job done with, say, Dominion, it would have been a great game.
 
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yeah all the errata in this game breaks my heart

if FFG only knew a kitten dies every time they release a new card errata... cry
 
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Andrew Dickie

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dougtempel wrote:
He does not need to attack solo. From the FAQ (p. 9):

"Q: Can Brand son of Bain (SoM 72) trigger his
response if he participates in a ranged attack that
defeats an enemy engaged with another player instead
of declaring the attack himself ?
A: Yes. Declaring an attack and participating in an
attack are both subsets of attacking. In both cases
Brand attacks and can trigger his response if the enemy
is defeated."


Nice. Thank goodness for the FAQ.
 
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Mighty Rauros
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I've been thinking about this combination for a bit and came up with these decks. Not 100% happy with them yet and would love feedback.

Deck 1: Brand, friend of Merry

Hero (3)
Brand son of Bain (THoEM) x1
Legolas (Core) x1
Bard the Bowman (OtD) x1

Ally (20)
Beorning Beekeeper (CatC) x3
Descendant of Thorondor (THoEM) x3
Vassal of the Windlord (TDM) x3
Landroval (AJtR) x3
Eagles of the Misty Mountains (RtM) x3
Beorn (Core) x2
Radagast (AJtR) x3

Attachment (15)
Black Arrow (OtD) x1
Great Yew Bow (OtD) x3
Book of Eldacar (EaAD) x3
Horn of Gondor (Core) x2
Support of the Eagles (RtM) x3
Born Aloft (CatC) x3

Event (15)
Rain of Arrows (Core) x3
Hands Upon the Bow (SaF) x3
The Eagles Are Coming! (THfG) x3
Thicket of Spears (Core) x3
To the Eyrie (AJtR) x3

Deck 2: Merry, friend of Brand

Hero (2)
Merry (TBR) x1
Pippin (TBR) x1

Ally (15)
Erebor Hammersmith (Core) x3
Defender of Rammas (HON) x3
Warden of Healing (TLD) x3
Barliman Butterbur (TBR) x3
Master of the Forge (SaF) x3

Attachment (12)
Black Arrow (OtD) x1
Dagger of Westernesse (TBR) x3
Horn of Gondor (Core) x2
Resourceful (TWitW) x3
Mighty Prowess (TDF) x3

Event (23)
Halfling Determination (TBR) x3
The Hammer-stroke (TBoG) x3
Unseen Strike (TRG) x3
Feint (Core) x3
Take No Notice (TBR) x3
Secret Paths (Core) x3
Risk Some Light (SaF) x3
Lorien's Wealth (Core) x2
 
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