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Subject: [DECK] Jamieson Jinteki rss

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Kris Jamieson
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For those that follow Bad Publicity [ https://www.youtube.com/ANRBadPublicity ] you know that I'm pretty private about my decks, but this time I thought I would share. I am normally born and bread NBN corporation player, have been from the beginning and have stuck with them through the slow start to being but a dot in the what is now ocean of NBN players. After I pulled the cards from the newest data pack I started to have "Second Thoughts" of my own. I was very interested in the two (2) sets of one (1) point agendas included in the group and how it could be used as an advantage in a Jinteki - Personal Evolution deck.

The deck balance is probably about 70% damage win, 30% agenda advance win.
It had not lost, in 15 games.

I have run tests against a few various builds. The first game I keep the deck a secret to the runner and have no issues winning. The second time I let them see the full deck and even with knowing what is I have still taken the win. They still have to run with caution and at a slow pace. It really is quite fun watching Andromeda players get their opening hand ripped apart do to net damage. Or Shaper players spending clicks and credits installing a rig and breaker set.

The deck has no trouble with economy. "Hedge Fund" and "Celebrity Gift" keep you in good shape with more than enough (since you are not rezing expensive ICE all over). Added bonus of a scored "Profiteering" (you will definitely take the full 15 credits every time) and/or "Gila Hands Arcology" keep you in the money.

"Trick of Light" complements the traps like "Cerebral Overwriter" and "Project Junebug" in case the runner suspects it because you have them installed and advanced for too many turns without doing anything else to them. This can help with some Fast Advance agenda scoring out of hand.
Scored agendas put pressure on the runner to make mistakes.

Use the little bit of ICE strategically- I like some "Chum" and a few "Data Mine"s over R&D with a "Hokusai Grid" installed in the Root.

"Neural Katana" can sit over hand or a remote (if you even care to ICE remote's)


You don't have to rez the ICE the first time they run. Don't be scarred to let the runner have an agenda. Most games they need to steal 7 anyway. Rez the Chummed Data Mine or a Katana when the forget about their hand size. Max the damage on a run. Hope they hit a Fetal AI, then add the Hokusai damage and the Personal Evolution Damage. On your turn drop a single or double "Neural EMP" for the kill shot.

Use all the typical "Jackson Howard" tips and tricks - shuffle your snares back into R&D, ditch agendas in archives then shuffle them back, and most important right after and "Indexing" run to change up that order.

Have some fun with this and love to hear how it goes for you

-Jamieson
Bad Publicity


Jamieson Jinteki (49 cards)

Jinteki: Personal Evolution

Agenda (16)
1 Braintrust
3 Clone Retirement
3 False Lead
3 Fetal AI
3 Gila Hands Arcology
3 Profiteering

Asset (10)
2 Cerebral Overwriter
3 Jackson Howard
2 Project Junebug
3 Snare!

Upgrade (3)
3 Hokusai Grid

Operation (11)
3 Celebrity Gift
3 Hedge Fund
3 Neural EMP
2 Trick of Light

Code Gate (3)
3 Chum

Sentry (3)
3 Neural Katana

ICE (3)
3 Data Mine

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Scott
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As you're running all agendas that can be scored in a single turn... why did you go for advance-able traps + trick of light?

You didn't find this deck archetype working better with non-advance-able traps (i.e. Edge of World) and trap-like upgrades (Bernice, Red Herrings) and high trash cost economic stuff (Private Contracts, SanSan, etc.)?
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Wesley Kinslow
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↳ Do one brain damage ↳ Do one brain damage ↳ End the run
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This blows my mind. How can you only use 7 influence?

You can cut a junebug for another Cerebral Overwriter. Junebug is terrible in Jinteki IMO. They just draw up/eat it or Deus Ex it off the board.
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Asterisk CGY
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Hell if you have Influence room, throw in some San Sans.
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With 8 influence you could add 1 scorched earth, 3 shadow, and a pop up or something. If they eat a snare tag 4th click, or second with false lead scored, they blow up. And it works with trick of light really well.

And did you try ronin? I'm a huge fan of at least 1, to make them respect traps or take a huge sword to the face. Plus trick of light. I would love to hear feedback, cause I love ronin.

Edit: I thought the same thing about the assets, but with all the bad publicity even sansan would be trivial to trash. With enough trick of lights and clone retirement you could get pretty close to game, with maybe one or two cyber babies snuck out. If I played this, I would consider -1 profiteering, -1 false lead (maybe gila, because 1 scored is enough?) And add another brain trust just to have a chance of getting closer to game point, where the advance able stuff becomes dangerous. They even have to run your baby! That's 3 damage right there!
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Asterisk CGY
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Oh bad publicity is good for EVERYTHING.

Haven't played enough with it to realize that.

Ouch, that'd hurt NBN.
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Kris Jamieson
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Thanks everyone for reading and giving feedback.
Love to hear all the questions and comments.


mwanafalsafa wrote:
As you're running all agendas that can be scored in a single turn... why did you go for advance-able traps + trick of light?

You didn't find this deck archetype working better with non-advance-able traps (i.e. Edge of World) and trap-like upgrades (Bernice, Red Herrings) and high trash cost economic stuff (Private Contracts, SanSan, etc.)?


Not all agendas can score out of hand. Agenda has to be done and in play at least a turn. If I didnt have traps they would run anything I put down. That's why trick of light. I can pull off the advance-able trap. It also gives alot of Bad Publicity and sansan get trashed too easy.

wedgeex wrote:
This blows my mind. How can you only use 7 influence?

You can cut a junebug for another Cerebral Overwriter. Junebug is terrible in Jinteki IMO. They just draw up/eat it or Deus Ex it off the board.


Im glad I was able to blow your mind - ill just assume you ment it in the good way ;)
There are tons of good cards out there to pick from these days. To put cards in I have to take something out. And influence is not mandatory to MAX out. I have run decks with less. you have to go with what the theme of the deck is. I did have beanstocks in there but removed them for space and the fact I dont need the money anymore.
Junebug and Cerebral overwriter - you make a good point. This being version 1.0 I have both. Junebug packs more of a punch with 2 damage per advance though. Over writer does brain damage which is good but you only have to discard hand size at the end of the turn so you can still draw up and run. Since my agendas are only 3 to advance I dont usually have more than 2 tokens on a trap anyway. A turn of install, advance, advance is really scary.

AsteriskCGY wrote:
Hell if you have Influence room, throw in some San Sans.


It wasnt an issue with money - it was that I dont really protect remotes and any caliber of player is not going to let a san san sit unprotected. It was definetly a thought cause "hell yeah" I would love one in there to be ripping off agendas. But at what cost. I used to splash in Biotic Labor to score out of hand. But at the end of the day look at the point value. How much work do you want to do or money to spend to score a 1 point. Plus with the possibility of the runner taking alot of Bad Publicity off of Profiteering, sansan is an easy trash.

Boogie knights wrote:
With 8 influence you could add 1 scorched earth, 3 shadow, and a pop up or something. If they eat a snare tag 4th click, or second with false lead scored, they blow up. And it works with trick of light really well.

And did you try ronin? I'm a huge fan of at least 1, to make them respect traps or take a huge sword to the face. Plus trick of light. I would love to hear feedback, cause I love ronin.

Edit: I thought the same thing about the assets, but with all the bad publicity even sansan would be trivial to trash. With enough trick of lights and clone retirement you could get pretty close to game, with maybe one or two cyber babies snuck out. If I played this, I would consider -1 profiteering, -1 false lead (maybe gila, because 1 scored is enough?) And add another brain trust just to have a chance of getting closer to game point, where the advance able stuff becomes dangerous. They even have to run your baby! That's 3 damage right there!


Scorched Earth - with one copy I find this a waste, I played worlds and the amount of people running multi Plascret Carapace is like 99% I think meat damage is something everyrunner is prepping for so its not going to be as dominate going forward. Plus you still have to stick a tag and I would prefure more ways to do that then just snare. If you read the articles by Alex Frog or on Stimhack you can see even them shift way from Scorched Earth in NBN tag decks. People are not surprised by it anymore.
The best thing about Scorched Earth Right now is that it exists and people can just think that its there. Since as stated Im not using all my splash so people counting influence wont know what I have.

Shadow - It would be an okay pick because I like that it wont end the run but I dont need the money and I dont care to tag or pay the trace. It also does not do damage which is what I was looking for. Damage Ice that will not end run.

Pop-up - A great ICE. One of my fav but I dont need the money and with possibility of giving so much Bad Publicity to the runner it becomes a walk through. So it didnt make the cut, felt it just took up 3 spots.

Ronin - lol love the huge sward to the face comment. I tried Ronin but really found it a little slow to charge up. I started with it in there but the low trash cost was my downside to it. A typical turn is install, advance, advance. I find that really scary to play against.If I do that with a Ronin and someone wants to be a cowboy and run nothing happens and he is trashed, time wasted. If I was running more end run ICE or more ICE in general I would for sure use him. Im playing the fear aspect of Ronin I guess. People have to believe its in the deck the first time they play against it.

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I'm sorry, but I do not see how this deck works at all. For starters, with 9 ice, you're likely to only start with one, if any. Except only three of them are useful by themselves; Chum and DM are largely positional.

Any skilled runner would tear this deck apart. you should probably reconsider spending the rest of your influence.

 
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Lysander1 wrote:
I'm sorry, but I do not see how this deck works at all. For starters, with 9 ice, you're likely to only start with one, if any. Except only three of them are useful by themselves; Chum and DM are largely positional.

Any skilled runner would tear this deck apart. you should probably reconsider spending the rest of your influence.



I think the point of this deck goes along withe the way Damon Stone talks about playing NBN and Jinteki.... that the ICE isn't to stop you from getting in, but to punish you. Yes there are only 7 ice... but you have to steal 7 agendas, and each run has the potential to be the source of multiple net damage. Instead of making you bank credits to run like big ICE can, you have to bank cards to run, which slows you just as much if not more. Making 2 runs in the same turn against a deck like this is dangerous, especially if one is out and advanced and could be a trap, or if Hokusai Grid is out.
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Lysander
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Yes, I get that, but with primarily one pointers and the difficult to score Fetal, he's going to be hard pressed putting pressure on the runner, allowing them time to play around his strategy. The problem with one-pointers is that the corp has to allocate an entire turn and 3c to score each one, which gets costly in the long run.

Long story short, he needs to apply more pressure. It'd be very easy to simply run R&D once or twice a turn against this deck, and there's very little he can do to slow the runner down or force them into a different tactic.
 
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Dave Sutcliffe
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mo8ius wrote:
Instead of making you bank credits to run like big ICE can, you have to bank cards to run, which slows you just as much if not more. Making 2 runs in the same turn against a deck like this is dangerous, especially if one is out and advanced and could be a trap, or if Hokusai Grid is out.


I don't see how banking a card (1 click if you have taken damage) can possibly slow you down as much/more than paying gaining credits to install a breaker, spending clicks to draw a breaker, gaining credits to use a breaker.

Multiple runs are only dangerous if you hit one of the few cards that deal multiple damage (eg. Snare! and, uh, Snare!?). I imagine you can run naked against this 2-3 times per turn and unless you're trying to repeatedly run through a Katana nothing can go particularly wrong.

"Click 1 draw. Click 2 run your server. Oh dear it's Chum. Ignore it and access the next Ice. Oh dear it's Data Mine. Take 4 damage, jack out and invalidate everything you invested in installing that pointless server of ice that made me discard 4 cards that I didn't need against you anyway because you're playing a deck that I don't need cards to beat"

If you hit an Agenda and take 1 pt you run again, hit a Snare and you stop to redraw, then run again. You'll have plenty of spare cash to trash Hokusai after 1pt of damage.

I don't know why you would EVER run against an advanced card in this deck. It's either a Cerebral Overwriter, Junebug, or Fetal AI, all of which you're happy to avoid. Putting an advancement counter onto a card is like putting a big flashing neon "IGNORE ME" sign on it to help the runner out. Oh noes, you have Trick of Light! Congrats on using it to score 1 agenda point.
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Derrick Billings
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Magicdave wrote:
mo8ius wrote:
Instead of making you bank credits to run like big ICE can, you have to bank cards to run, which slows you just as much if not more. Making 2 runs in the same turn against a deck like this is dangerous, especially if one is out and advanced and could be a trap, or if Hokusai Grid is out.


"Click 1 draw. Click 2 run your server. Oh dear it's Chum. Ignore it and access the next Ice. Oh dear it's Data Mine. Take 4 damage, jack out and invalidate everything you invested in installing that pointless server of ice that made me discard 4 cards that I didn't need against you anyway because you're playing a deck that I don't need cards to beat"

If you hit an Agenda and take 1 pt you run again, hit a Snare and you stop to redraw, then run again. You'll have plenty of spare cash to trash Hokusai after 1pt of damage.

I don't know why you would EVER run against an advanced card in this deck. It's either a Cerebral Overwriter, Junebug, or Fetal AI, all of which you're happy to avoid. Putting an advancement counter onto a card is like putting a big flashing neon "IGNORE ME" sign on it to help the runner out.


Minus the sarcasm, this is kind of my worry with this deck, and has been the downfall of other Jinteki Box-of-Pain decks I've tried. Ronin is the only thing that I know of that can keep the runner honest, and they get trashed a LOT.
 
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If you tend to have spare cash floating around and free influence points, would 'Matrix Analyser' work here if you could squeeze it in?

That scary "Install, advance, advance" becomes even scarier when you get a 'free' (in click terms) third advance. If they continue to run and it's a trap, it's mighty painful if not a outright flatline. If it was an agenda and they jack out scared, you just saved yourself a click and wasted one of theirs.
 
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Dave Sutcliffe
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Grimwalker wrote:

Minus the sarcasm, this is kind of my worry with this deck, and has been the downfall of other Jinteki Box-of-Pain decks I've tried. Ronin is the only thing that I know of that can keep the runner honest, and they get trashed a LOT.


This. Ronin should be the Jinteki Scorched Earth but it's simply too hard to use.
 
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Magicdave wrote:
Grimwalker wrote:

Minus the sarcasm, this is kind of my worry with this deck, and has been the downfall of other Jinteki Box-of-Pain decks I've tried. Ronin is the only thing that I know of that can keep the runner honest, and they get trashed a LOT.


This. Ronin should be the Jinteki Scorched Earth but it's simply too hard to use.


True, but it only takes one to slip through and drastically improve your board state. With Jackson to recycle trashed Ronins, the runner would have to be faceplanting every advanced asset you place. Mind you, it's no scorched, but net damage is primarily intended for small bursts whereas meat is typically in larger bursts.
 
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Lysander1 wrote:
Magicdave wrote:
Grimwalker wrote:

Minus the sarcasm, this is kind of my worry with this deck, and has been the downfall of other Jinteki Box-of-Pain decks I've tried. Ronin is the only thing that I know of that can keep the runner honest, and they get trashed a LOT.


This. Ronin should be the Jinteki Scorched Earth but it's simply too hard to use.


True, but it only takes one to slip through and drastically improve your board state. With Jackson to recycle trashed Ronins, the runner would have to be faceplanting every advanced asset you place. Mind you, it's no scorched, but net damage is primarily intended for small bursts whereas meat is typically in larger bursts.


I don't know if it does 'drastically incmprove your board state', though.

If you get a Ronin to 4 counters without the runner checking it then I agree, but if you're having it sat on 2 counters (so you can AA-Shoot) then I'm going to play around it by never ending my turn with only 2 cards in hand. I was already playing around double-EMP anyway so it's not a major inconvenience.
 
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Magicdave wrote:
Lysander1 wrote:
Magicdave wrote:
Grimwalker wrote:

Minus the sarcasm, this is kind of my worry with this deck, and has been the downfall of other Jinteki Box-of-Pain decks I've tried. Ronin is the only thing that I know of that can keep the runner honest, and they get trashed a LOT.


This. Ronin should be the Jinteki Scorched Earth but it's simply too hard to use.


True, but it only takes one to slip through and drastically improve your board state. With Jackson to recycle trashed Ronins, the runner would have to be faceplanting every advanced asset you place. Mind you, it's no scorched, but net damage is primarily intended for small bursts whereas meat is typically in larger bursts.


I don't know if it does 'drastically incmprove your board state', though.

If you get a Ronin to 4 counters without the runner checking it then I agree, but if you're having it sat on 2 counters (so you can AA-Shoot) then I'm going to play around it by never ending my turn with only 2 cards in hand. I was already playing around double-EMP anyway so it's not a major inconvenience.



True. I typically advance my traps, Fetals, and Ronins to five advancements (sometimes gradually, sometimes in rapid succession) so that the runner is forced to run what could be a loaded Ronin, or a 5-advanced overwriter.
 
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Lysander1 wrote:
I'm sorry, but I do not see how this deck works at all. For starters, with 9 ice, you're likely to only start with one, if any. Except only three of them are useful by themselves; Chum and DM are largely positional.

Any skilled runner would tear this deck apart. you should probably reconsider spending the rest of your influence.



Lysander1 wrote:
Yes, I get that, but with primarily one pointers and the difficult to score Fetal, he's going to be hard pressed putting pressure on the runner, allowing them time to play around his strategy. The problem with one-pointers is that the corp has to allocate an entire turn and 3c to score each one, which gets costly in the long run.

Long story short, he needs to apply more pressure. It'd be very easy to simply run R&D once or twice a turn against this deck, and there's very little he can do to slow the runner down or force them into a different tactic.


It's okay. I accept your apology. No sorries needed. I think you are falling into a trap where you are not fully understanding the archetype of a Jinteki build. You look at this and see small ICE and auto assume that it will not work. I appreciate the comments but sometimes I feel criticism like this is why more people don't post ideas and deck lists. Its because without any testing or plays of the deck people just say "oh that wont work". Stopping people from thinking outside the box and starting open discussion about it. Maybe your style is to promote netdecking an Andy and HB build since they are tested and true and if thats what you know its all good and have fun. No need to build anything else if we have something that works. Don't reinvent the wheel. But being, if you didn't know what is in this deck and you just start running blind it will bite you hard, as I have seen in the test games already. I am only sitting with version 1 of this build and was really opening this up for people to try out and engage in ideas around making this build better. Having fun with Jinteki. As I feel that's what Jinteki players do. They have fun with the game. Everyone knows that a Jinteki build can be worked around with draw and they are not ranking high on the competitive scale currently. But they are getting a lot of new tricks and cards that are going to make them stronger and more of a threat so why not start exploring it now. I'm not advocating you take this into a regional or if worlds was tomorrow. Thinking this is not competitive I gotta shake me head. Im a bit lost when you say comments that there is no pressure on the runner.

Magicdave wrote:
mo8ius wrote:
Instead of making you bank credits to run like big ICE can, you have to bank cards to run, which slows you just as much if not more. Making 2 runs in the same turn against a deck like this is dangerous, especially if one is out and advanced and could be a trap, or if Hokusai Grid is out.


I don't see how banking a card (1 click if you have taken damage) can possibly slow you down as much/more than paying gaining credits to install a breaker, spending clicks to draw a breaker, gaining credits to use a breaker.

Multiple runs are only dangerous if you hit one of the few cards that deal multiple damage (eg. Snare! and, uh, Snare!?). I imagine you can run naked against this 2-3 times per turn and unless you're trying to repeatedly run through a Katana nothing can go particularly wrong.

"Click 1 draw. Click 2 run your server. Oh dear it's Chum. Ignore it and access the next Ice. Oh dear it's Data Mine. Take 4 damage, jack out and invalidate everything you invested in installing that pointless server of ice that made me discard 4 cards that I didn't need against you anyway because you're playing a deck that I don't need cards to beat"

If you hit an Agenda and take 1 pt you run again, hit a Snare and you stop to redraw, then run again. You'll have plenty of spare cash to trash Hokusai after 1pt of damage.

I don't know why you would EVER run against an advanced card in this deck. It's either a Cerebral Overwriter, Junebug, or Fetal AI, all of which you're happy to avoid. Putting an advancement counter onto a card is like putting a big flashing neon "IGNORE ME" sign on it to help the runner out. Oh noes, you have Trick of Light! Congrats on using it to score 1 agenda point.


Kind of really surprised on your comments here. The comments are all coming across like that because I'm telling you the deck list in advance. There is no way you ever sit down across the table and play someone and say "Hey Im running all 1 point agendas and very little ICE." What you are saying here really leads me to believe you have never run against Jinteki ever. If you match up against an unknown Jinteki deck and don't run against advanced cards you are walking dead for a Ronin. You have to make a move before they ever have a chance to charge a card with 4 tokens. You have to play with caution knowing that any damage you take could be the cards the you "think" you need. And I definetly wont be using trick of light if you are going to tell me that everything I put down and advance, your not going to run at. That's why the speculation deck reviews dont work. I say here is my deck list. You say okay Im never running a remote with an advancement token. Then I say "every agenda I get I will put down and advance once". Then now what are you going to say. "Okay I will start running remotes", and we go back and forth speculating moves because we are playing open handed. Timing is a very impotent part of netrunner. Obviously I am not going to rez a data mine if you are running on second click. You just take damage and draw for final clicks. You want to damage when they end the turn with low cards and then you can Neural EMP.

Im more surprised you didnt say the weakness was sneak and peak.
Cards that expose installed unrezzed cards. Like Infiltration. As that is where my mind has been at.
How can I put Zaibatsu Loyalty in here. Then we could have had more of a discussion.
But you chose a different tangent to travel on.

-
Disclaimer FootNote:

You can sit there and say this is not going to work but 2nd paragraph I already tell you that I'm catching people off guard and winning.

You look at some people that try and move the bar set by this game. BGG user N/A Travis Chance is a great example [Big Respect]. He posted an Exile deck that got its very share of negative reviews and comments. People thinking he was crazy and didn't stand a chance. Through all the negative comments a few people worked with him to build and tweak the deck providing some input which Travis used to make tweaks and spawn new ideas and modifications. People thinking him crazy but he takes it and wins a Plugged In event. Now people talk about remembering when Exile won a tournament.

Do you remember when NBN the "world is yours" came out. Scud on cardgameDB posted an article about running very low ICE count and boy did he get slammed in the comments. Fast forward to the team covenant regional and we see a world is yours deck in the top 8 playing only POP-UP window as ICE, less ICE then what Scud was getting torn apart for. We start giving that build credit for catching everyone off guard.


What would really happen if instead of saying this cant work that someone actually sat down, built this and started to exchange ideas with me on thread. And cheers to the people that do. Hit me up with your ideas and discussion points and your test results. Lets make this OUR DECK. Cheers to those that try and tell me 'this deck blows'. Cheers to those that try and say "hey I didnt win but man was that a fun game". But to those that try it out and message me with thoughts, ideas, open discussion points tweaks and modification reports. Thank You.



I do not mean to come across negative or sounding angry here. I am not.
I just dont believe in providing criticism based on theory and comments based around negativity with no constructive criticism.
In a real game you never know what some one has in a deck. Laying a deck list out anyone can pick out a counter to it.
"Dont put that Heindall in your deck because I'll just play a DeusX and break right through it for zero."
This is a great game with a counter built for everything.
Whats fun is do you have the right counter at the right time and can you predict what your opponent has. Can you play something to catch the runner off guard that they were not expecting. Can you do something that pushes the limits just a bit father than the last time.


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Dave Sutcliffe
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resCube wrote:
Lysander1 wrote:
I'm sorry, but I do not see how this deck works at all. For starters, with 9 ice, you're likely to only start with one, if any. Except only three of them are useful by themselves; Chum and DM are largely positional.

Any skilled runner would tear this deck apart. you should probably reconsider spending the rest of your influence.



Lysander1 wrote:
Yes, I get that, but with primarily one pointers and the difficult to score Fetal, he's going to be hard pressed putting pressure on the runner, allowing them time to play around his strategy. The problem with one-pointers is that the corp has to allocate an entire turn and 3c to score each one, which gets costly in the long run.

Long story short, he needs to apply more pressure. It'd be very easy to simply run R&D once or twice a turn against this deck, and there's very little he can do to slow the runner down or force them into a different tactic.


It's okay. I accept your apology. No sorries needed. I think you are falling into a trap where you are not fully understanding the archetype of a Jinteki build. You look at this and see small ICE and auto assume that it will not work. I appreciate the comments but sometimes I feel criticism like this is why more people don't post ideas and deck lists. Its because without any testing or plays of the deck people just say "oh that wont work". Stopping people from thinking outside the box and starting open discussion about it. Maybe your style is to promote netdecking an Andy and HB build since they are tested and true and if thats what you know its all good and have fun. No need to build anything else if we have something that works. Don't reinvent the wheel. But being, if you didn't know what is in this deck and you just start running blind it will bite you hard, as I have seen in the test games already. I am only sitting with version 1 of this build and was really opening this up for people to try out and engage in ideas around making this build better. Having fun with Jinteki. As I feel that's what Jinteki players do. They have fun with the game. Everyone knows that a Jinteki build can be worked around with draw and they are not ranking high on the competitive scale currently. But they are getting a lot of new tricks and cards that are going to make them stronger and more of a threat so why not start exploring it now. I'm not advocating you take this into a regional or if worlds was tomorrow. Thinking this is not competitive I gotta shake me head. Im a bit lost when you say comments that there is no pressure on the runner.

Magicdave wrote:
mo8ius wrote:
Instead of making you bank credits to run like big ICE can, you have to bank cards to run, which slows you just as much if not more. Making 2 runs in the same turn against a deck like this is dangerous, especially if one is out and advanced and could be a trap, or if Hokusai Grid is out.


I don't see how banking a card (1 click if you have taken damage) can possibly slow you down as much/more than paying gaining credits to install a breaker, spending clicks to draw a breaker, gaining credits to use a breaker.

Multiple runs are only dangerous if you hit one of the few cards that deal multiple damage (eg. Snare! and, uh, Snare!?). I imagine you can run naked against this 2-3 times per turn and unless you're trying to repeatedly run through a Katana nothing can go particularly wrong.

"Click 1 draw. Click 2 run your server. Oh dear it's Chum. Ignore it and access the next Ice. Oh dear it's Data Mine. Take 4 damage, jack out and invalidate everything you invested in installing that pointless server of ice that made me discard 4 cards that I didn't need against you anyway because you're playing a deck that I don't need cards to beat"

If you hit an Agenda and take 1 pt you run again, hit a Snare and you stop to redraw, then run again. You'll have plenty of spare cash to trash Hokusai after 1pt of damage.

I don't know why you would EVER run against an advanced card in this deck. It's either a Cerebral Overwriter, Junebug, or Fetal AI, all of which you're happy to avoid. Putting an advancement counter onto a card is like putting a big flashing neon "IGNORE ME" sign on it to help the runner out. Oh noes, you have Trick of Light! Congrats on using it to score 1 agenda point.


Kind of really surprised on your comments here. The comments are all coming across like that because I'm telling you the deck list in advance. There is no way you ever sit down across the table and play someone and say "Hey Im running all 1 point agendas and very little ICE." What you are saying here really leads me to believe you have never run against Jinteki ever. If you match up against an unknown Jinteki deck and don't run against advanced cards you are walking dead for a Ronin. You have to make a move before they ever have a chance to charge a card with 4 tokens. You have to play with caution knowing that any damage you take could be the cards the you "think" you need. And I definetly wont be using trick of light if you are going to tell me that everything I put down and advance, your not going to run at. That's why the speculation deck reviews dont work. I say here is my deck list. You say okay Im never running a remote with an advancement token. Then I say "every agenda I get I will put down and advance once". Then now what are you going to say. "Okay I will start running remotes", and we go back and forth speculating moves because we are playing open handed. Timing is a very impotent part of netrunner. Obviously I am not going to rez a data mine if you are running on second click. You just take damage and draw for final clicks. You want to damage when they end the turn with low cards and then you can Neural EMP.

Im more surprised you didnt say the weakness was sneak and peak.
Cards that expose installed unrezzed cards. Like Infiltration. As that is where my mind has been at.
How can I put Zaibatsu Loyalty in here. Then we could have had more of a discussion.
But you chose a different tangent to travel on.

-
Disclaimer FootNote:

You can sit there and say this is not going to work but 2nd paragraph I already tell you that I'm catching people off guard and winning.

You look at some people that try and move the bar set by this game. BGG user N/A Travis Chance is a great example [Big Respect]. He posted an Exile deck that got its very share of negative reviews and comments. People thinking he was crazy and didn't stand a chance. Through all the negative comments a few people worked with him to build and tweak the deck providing some input which Travis used to make tweaks and spawn new ideas and modifications. People thinking him crazy but he takes it and wins a Plugged In event. Now people talk about remembering when Exile won a tournament.

Do you remember when NBN the "world is yours" came out. Scud on cardgameDB posted an article about running very low ICE count and boy did he get slammed in the comments. Fast forward to the team covenant regional and we see a world is yours deck in the top 8 playing only POP-UP window as ICE, less ICE then what Scud was getting torn apart for. We start giving that build credit for catching everyone off guard.


What would really happen if instead of saying this cant work that someone actually sat down, built this and started to exchange ideas with me on thread. And cheers to the people that do. Hit me up with your ideas and discussion points and your test results. Lets make this OUR DECK. Cheers to those that try and tell me 'this deck blows'. Cheers to those that try and say "hey I didnt win but man was that a fun game". But to those that try it out and message me with thoughts, ideas, open discussion points tweaks and modification reports. Thank You.



I do not mean to come across negative or sounding angry here. I am not.
I just dont believe in providing criticism based on theory and comments based around negativity with no constructive criticism.
In a real game you never know what some one has in a deck. Laying a deck list out anyone can pick out a counter to it.
"Dont put that Heindall in your deck because I'll just play a DeusX and break right through it for zero."
This is a great game with a counter built for everything.
Whats fun is do you have the right counter at the right time and can you predict what your opponent has. Can you play something to catch the runner off guard that they were not expecting. Can you do something that pushes the limits just a bit father than the last time.





Wow. Just... wow.

You're right.
I've never researched Jinteki decks (http://thesatelliteuplink.blogspot.com/2013/09/psychographic...).
I've never played against Jinteki decks (http://thesatelliteuplink.blogspot.com/2013/09/winning-deckl...).
I've never built a Jinteki deck (http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1062429/deck-jankteki) (http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1070809/deckgrim-perfection).
In fact I've no experience at all of Jinteki, which is why I don't agree with you.



I'm not the god of all things Jinteki, but I know it's weaknesses well enough because I've tried building many different types of Jinteki deck, including something very similar to your deck here. From my experience your deck won't work for the reasons stated above.

Meanwhile your entire defense is "I know Jinteki and you clearly don't know jack, so I am right and you are unfit to comment". Good luck with that attitude, fella!

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Lysander1 wrote:
Yes, I get that, but with primarily one pointers and the difficult to score Fetal, he's going to be hard pressed putting pressure on the runner, allowing them time to play around his strategy. The problem with one-pointers is that the corp has to allocate an entire turn and 3c to score each one, which gets costly in the long run.

Long story short, he needs to apply more pressure. It'd be very easy to simply run R&D once or twice a turn against this deck, and there's very little he can do to slow the runner down or force them into a different tactic.


Yeah - I think the deck needs to do something more to speed up that "race" (as it were); if the Runner's turn is "Run, draw, draw, draw" and the Corp's turn is "Install, advance, advance [score]", I think the Runner wins that race. I'm surprised this deck doesn't run 3 Trick of Light for this reason. If you're going to turn the game into a balls-out race, I think you've got to put some fast-advance tools in. 8 spare influence says "2x Biotic Labor" to me.
 
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I'll try this out tonight and report back.

I tried out one of Lysanders decks once that looked kind of interesting and it ended up being *way* better than I would have thought. Hopefully this is the same.
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Magicdave wrote:
resCube wrote:
Lysander1 wrote:
I'm sorry, but I do not see how this deck works at all. For starters, with 9 ice, you're likely to only start with one, if any. Except only three of them are useful by themselves; Chum and DM are largely positional.

Any skilled runner would tear this deck apart. you should probably reconsider spending the rest of your influence.



Lysander1 wrote:
Yes, I get that, but with primarily one pointers and the difficult to score Fetal, he's going to be hard pressed putting pressure on the runner, allowing them time to play around his strategy. The problem with one-pointers is that the corp has to allocate an entire turn and 3c to score each one, which gets costly in the long run.

Long story short, he needs to apply more pressure. It'd be very easy to simply run R&D once or twice a turn against this deck, and there's very little he can do to slow the runner down or force them into a different tactic.


It's okay. I accept your apology. No sorries needed. I think you are falling into a trap where you are not fully understanding the archetype of a Jinteki build. You look at this and see small ICE and auto assume that it will not work. I appreciate the comments but sometimes I feel criticism like this is why more people don't post ideas and deck lists. Its because without any testing or plays of the deck people just say "oh that wont work". Stopping people from thinking outside the box and starting open discussion about it. Maybe your style is to promote netdecking an Andy and HB build since they are tested and true and if thats what you know its all good and have fun. No need to build anything else if we have something that works. Don't reinvent the wheel. But being, if you didn't know what is in this deck and you just start running blind it will bite you hard, as I have seen in the test games already. I am only sitting with version 1 of this build and was really opening this up for people to try out and engage in ideas around making this build better. Having fun with Jinteki. As I feel that's what Jinteki players do. They have fun with the game. Everyone knows that a Jinteki build can be worked around with draw and they are not ranking high on the competitive scale currently. But they are getting a lot of new tricks and cards that are going to make them stronger and more of a threat so why not start exploring it now. I'm not advocating you take this into a regional or if worlds was tomorrow. Thinking this is not competitive I gotta shake me head. Im a bit lost when you say comments that there is no pressure on the runner.

Magicdave wrote:
mo8ius wrote:
Instead of making you bank credits to run like big ICE can, you have to bank cards to run, which slows you just as much if not more. Making 2 runs in the same turn against a deck like this is dangerous, especially if one is out and advanced and could be a trap, or if Hokusai Grid is out.


I don't see how banking a card (1 click if you have taken damage) can possibly slow you down as much/more than paying gaining credits to install a breaker, spending clicks to draw a breaker, gaining credits to use a breaker.

Multiple runs are only dangerous if you hit one of the few cards that deal multiple damage (eg. Snare! and, uh, Snare!?). I imagine you can run naked against this 2-3 times per turn and unless you're trying to repeatedly run through a Katana nothing can go particularly wrong.

"Click 1 draw. Click 2 run your server. Oh dear it's Chum. Ignore it and access the next Ice. Oh dear it's Data Mine. Take 4 damage, jack out and invalidate everything you invested in installing that pointless server of ice that made me discard 4 cards that I didn't need against you anyway because you're playing a deck that I don't need cards to beat"

If you hit an Agenda and take 1 pt you run again, hit a Snare and you stop to redraw, then run again. You'll have plenty of spare cash to trash Hokusai after 1pt of damage.

I don't know why you would EVER run against an advanced card in this deck. It's either a Cerebral Overwriter, Junebug, or Fetal AI, all of which you're happy to avoid. Putting an advancement counter onto a card is like putting a big flashing neon "IGNORE ME" sign on it to help the runner out. Oh noes, you have Trick of Light! Congrats on using it to score 1 agenda point.


Kind of really surprised on your comments here. The comments are all coming across like that because I'm telling you the deck list in advance. There is no way you ever sit down across the table and play someone and say "Hey Im running all 1 point agendas and very little ICE." What you are saying here really leads me to believe you have never run against Jinteki ever. If you match up against an unknown Jinteki deck and don't run against advanced cards you are walking dead for a Ronin. You have to make a move before they ever have a chance to charge a card with 4 tokens. You have to play with caution knowing that any damage you take could be the cards the you "think" you need. And I definetly wont be using trick of light if you are going to tell me that everything I put down and advance, your not going to run at. That's why the speculation deck reviews dont work. I say here is my deck list. You say okay Im never running a remote with an advancement token. Then I say "every agenda I get I will put down and advance once". Then now what are you going to say. "Okay I will start running remotes", and we go back and forth speculating moves because we are playing open handed. Timing is a very impotent part of netrunner. Obviously I am not going to rez a data mine if you are running on second click. You just take damage and draw for final clicks. You want to damage when they end the turn with low cards and then you can Neural EMP.

Im more surprised you didnt say the weakness was sneak and peak.
Cards that expose installed unrezzed cards. Like Infiltration. As that is where my mind has been at.
How can I put Zaibatsu Loyalty in here. Then we could have had more of a discussion.
But you chose a different tangent to travel on.

-
Disclaimer FootNote:

You can sit there and say this is not going to work but 2nd paragraph I already tell you that I'm catching people off guard and winning.

You look at some people that try and move the bar set by this game. BGG user N/A Travis Chance is a great example [Big Respect]. He posted an Exile deck that got its very share of negative reviews and comments. People thinking he was crazy and didn't stand a chance. Through all the negative comments a few people worked with him to build and tweak the deck providing some input which Travis used to make tweaks and spawn new ideas and modifications. People thinking him crazy but he takes it and wins a Plugged In event. Now people talk about remembering when Exile won a tournament.

Do you remember when NBN the "world is yours" came out. Scud on cardgameDB posted an article about running very low ICE count and boy did he get slammed in the comments. Fast forward to the team covenant regional and we see a world is yours deck in the top 8 playing only POP-UP window as ICE, less ICE then what Scud was getting torn apart for. We start giving that build credit for catching everyone off guard.


What would really happen if instead of saying this cant work that someone actually sat down, built this and started to exchange ideas with me on thread. And cheers to the people that do. Hit me up with your ideas and discussion points and your test results. Lets make this OUR DECK. Cheers to those that try and tell me 'this deck blows'. Cheers to those that try and say "hey I didnt win but man was that a fun game". But to those that try it out and message me with thoughts, ideas, open discussion points tweaks and modification reports. Thank You.



I do not mean to come across negative or sounding angry here. I am not.
I just dont believe in providing criticism based on theory and comments based around negativity with no constructive criticism.
In a real game you never know what some one has in a deck. Laying a deck list out anyone can pick out a counter to it.
"Dont put that Heindall in your deck because I'll just play a DeusX and break right through it for zero."
This is a great game with a counter built for everything.
Whats fun is do you have the right counter at the right time and can you predict what your opponent has. Can you play something to catch the runner off guard that they were not expecting. Can you do something that pushes the limits just a bit father than the last time.





Wow. Just... wow.

You're right.
I've never researched Jinteki decks (http://thesatelliteuplink.blogspot.com/2013/09/psychographic...).
I've never played against Jinteki decks (http://thesatelliteuplink.blogspot.com/2013/09/winning-deckl...).
I've never built a Jinteki deck (http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1062429/deck-jankteki) (http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1070809/deckgrim-perfection).
In fact I've no experience at all of Jinteki, which is why I don't agree with you.

:what:

I'm not the god of all things Jinteki, but I know it's weaknesses well enough because I've tried building many different types of Jinteki deck, including something very similar to your deck here. From my experience your deck won't work for the reasons stated above.

Meanwhile your entire defense is "I know Jinteki and you clearly don't know jack, so I am right and you are unfit to comment". Good luck with that attitude, fella!



I respect your opinion and apologize for negativity or attacks you felt towards you as a player and as part of the community

I had a reply typed out but I deleted it.
I dont believe this is going to end up any where constructive so I will just end it here.

Thanks you for taking the time to read my original post and provide your feedback.

Happy gaming.


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I must say I have also been taken aback upon seeing criticism of my own Jinteki decks without proper testing, so I wholeheartedly understand where you're coming from and apologize for being critical without fully understanding the nuances of the deck. I'll let you know my findings if I have time to test this out.

Personally, if I may, I don't believe much has changed for Jinteki on a competitive level, nor do I think any of the spoiled cards apart from Caprice shows particular promise (their cumulative effect may swing things enough in Jinteki's favor, though I'm doubtful). My Jinteki decks, like many others, are very powerful, but crumble against users such as Sneakysly and Alexfrog. As soon as Jinteki obtains additional pressure I'll jump back in headfirst and not look back.
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Lysander1 wrote:
I must say I have also been taken aback upon seeing criticism of my own Jinteki decks without proper testing, so I wholeheartedly understand where you're coming from and apologize for being critical without fully understanding the nuances of the deck. I'll let you know my findings if I have time to test this out.

Personally, if I may, I don't believe much has changed for Jinteki on a competitive level, nor do I think any of the spoiled cards apart from Caprice shows particular promise (their cumulative effect may swing things enough in Jinteki's favor, though I'm doubtful). My Jinteki decks, like many others, are very powerful, but crumble against users such as Sneakysly and Alexfrog. As soon as Jinteki obtains additional pressure I'll jump back in headfirst and not look back.


Totally sounds good, would love to hear what tweaks you think we can throw in here.
Agree that against some runner builds Jinteki can fold up like origami. But I believe its time put our minds together and come up with something.
Its gotta start somewhere right? ;)
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resCube wrote:
Lysander1 wrote:
I must say I have also been taken aback upon seeing criticism of my own Jinteki decks without proper testing, so I wholeheartedly understand where you're coming from and apologize for being critical without fully understanding the nuances of the deck. I'll let you know my findings if I have time to test this out.

Personally, if I may, I don't believe much has changed for Jinteki on a competitive level, nor do I think any of the spoiled cards apart from Caprice shows particular promise (their cumulative effect may swing things enough in Jinteki's favor, though I'm doubtful). My Jinteki decks, like many others, are very powerful, but crumble against users such as Sneakysly and Alexfrog. As soon as Jinteki obtains additional pressure I'll jump back in headfirst and not look back.


Totally sounds good, would love to hear what tweaks you think we can throw in here.
Agree that against some runner builds Jinteki can fold up like origami. But I believe its time put our minds together and come up with something.
Its gotta start somewhere right?


Shout out to Bad Publicity!

I've got a few questions for you that you may or may not already have the answers to, but if you do, maybe it will help clarify an area where your deck is strong, and if not, maybe it will help be a mental foil for making it stronger!


Some background:

When I started trying to make a Jinteki deck (this was around March/April, and I haven't played Jinteki more than a handful of times since), one of the principal goals I started out with was that I wanted to make sure that running my remote server was a dangerous nuisance. Magnum Opus was still pretty popular at the time, and it was hard to force the Runner into a tempo hole to give myself an opportunity to score. Furthermore, Emergency Shutdown had just recently come out and added a pretty significant improvement to Criminal's ability to shenanigans their way into a server every time a remote card was installed.

Jinteki seemed like the obvious choice in this case - the Runner will have to run into traps if they want to hit my remote server over and over! I'll melt all their brains! Bwahahaha!

The issue with Jinteki for me was that it just took way too many damn clicks to advance the cards that needed to shill for each other (agendas and traps). Not only that, but because I was spending so many clicks on advancing, then credits became a problem too since I wasn't spending clicks on getting them and I was spending them with those clicks instead.

My NBN Never Advance deck was born from this problem. Edge of World was just released, and it was the perfect opportunity for me to use obfuscation exactly the way I wanted without having to deal with the advancement issue, because now I had a sufficiently dangerous trap that worked unadvanced. The problem now was why would anyone ever run a unadvanced Jinteki card? No one cared if I scored a few Braintrusts - I can't win with just those. It didn't take very long to come up with the solution to that problem. NO ONE wants to let the Corp score an Astroscript Pilot Program. The rest is history.


I feel like a lot of the complaints that Jinteki is weak at their core are probably related to the additional advancement burden they have over the other factions that they garner from trying to take advantage of some of the cards that make them unique. You could look at this from the standpoint that Junebug and Ronin need to be advanced to be effective, but that's not even what the problem is. The problem is, Nisei is their most powerful agenda, and in order to use it, you're in many ways stuck using the masquerading class of cards that must be advanced on a turn prior to being scored. Trick of Light can assist with this, but that in turn requires existing advancements. Fetal AI is very powerful as well, and also must be advanced on a turn prior to being scored.

To reiterate: I feel like Jinteki's burden to spend clicks on advancing things is disproportionately large.

That's not to say it can't be worked around. I think most deeply involved A:NR players are familiar with Hollis' "Love Affair w/ Jinteki" article and the fact that the 1st place player at the GenCon tournament played Jinteki. That said, I do feel like one of the most basic questions that needs to be answered with regards to a particular Jinteki build and the strategy that goes along with this is "How to do do you either take advantage of this burden of advancement issue in your deck, or barring that, mitigate its negative impact?"


So how do you deal with that in your deck? I think this question is especially interesting in your build (and particularly so because you are a fellow NBN player) - you appear to have the opportunity to go either way. You've included quite a few more 3 advancement agendas than I think we typically see in a Jinteki deck.

Do you find yourself taking advantage of that by scoring them the same way I favor in NBN Never Advance?

Do you instead take advantage of the Runner's distaste for running advanced remotes in Jinteki by advancing these and scoring them when they're ignored?

Is it not one or the other, but the flexibility to go back and forth - even potentially in the context of a single game - that makes the build powerful?

Do you find that using the 3/X agendas gives you leeway to take advantage of upgrades the same way that I do, or does that not factor into how you play your upgrades?

You said that flatlining comprises 70% of your wins - how does your agenda strategy feed that win condition? I feel like it must somehow, or you wouldn't have made the decision to include as many 3/X agendas as you have here. Is it all about making the Runner have to steal so many of them because you're including so many 1 point agendas, and all the extra opportunities to screw up is what makes your flatlining % so high?


Looking forward to seeing what kind of discussion that generates for the meeting of the minds!
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