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Subject: If you Camp at the start of your turn, do you still get a Compulsory Action? rss

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Jeff Thornsen
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There is some confusion in my group regarding what happens if it's your turn, and you have either 0 or 1 cards in hand, and 0 indians, and therefore cannot take a Compulsory Action.

In this case, you are forced to set up Camp.

Here is the section in the rules causing the confusion (Bold is mine):
Rules page 5 wrote:
You can set up Camp any time during your round, before or after your compulsory Action. This phase becomes compulsory when you cannot perform any action (Character or Village). Your Camp and your Scout might end up at the same spot during this time.


Does the act of setting up Camp count as your Compulsory Action for the turn? Or is the rule simply saying that you must set up camp first, in order to be able to perform your Compulsory Action?
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Anne-Cécile Lefebvre
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Hi jeff,

Setting up Camp is never your Compulsory action.
In the situation you are talking about, you must set up your camp first and then you must perform an Action.

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Ian Noble
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ludo naute wrote:
Hi jeff,

Setting up Camp is never your Compulsory action.
In the situation you are talking about, you must set up your camp first and then you must perform an Action.



Good to know! I think I played this wrong once. The bolded sentence above what confused me, too.
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Thomas Leitner
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It's always confusing when rulebooks use words interchangeably as a term of art and for their plain meaning.

It also seems to be very common, and apparently very difficult to edit out.
 
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Eloy Koenders
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hi Jeff

Why didn't you set up camp in your previous turn ? What was your reason not to do so ?
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Jeff Thornsen
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If I was currently going to receive a time penalty, and there was another player immediately behind me, I would fall backwards more than 1 space.

By waiting until my next turn, there is a chance that the other player will have moved out of the way, and therefore I won't fall back as far.

Similarly, by camping now, my scout may end up moving back to a position which is favorable for my opponents (by letting them jump over me).

This is mostly an issue when all the players are grouped together, so moving even 1 space could send you back 3 or 4 spaces.
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Andrew MacLeod
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MDJD wrote:
It's always confusing when rulebooks use words interchangeably as a term of art and for their plain meaning.

It also seems to be very common, and apparently very difficult to edit out.


I'm afraid I did the editing on the English rules, and I didn't catch it, so I'm to blame. Why didn't I catch it? Because I, too, was under the impression that setting up camp became THE compulsory action if you were out of cards and Indians! The wording in the original translation isn't all that different from the edited version on this particular point: camping was called "compulsory". So this thread has been an education for me.

The good news is it's my understanding that there will be an "amended" rulebook in the next English printing of Lewis&Clark.
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Thomas Leitner
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amacleod wrote:
MDJD wrote:
It's always confusing when rulebooks use words interchangeably as a term of art and for their plain meaning.

It also seems to be very common, and apparently very difficult to edit out.


I'm afraid I did the editing on the English rules, and I didn't catch it, so I'm to blame. Why didn't I catch it? Because I, too, was under the impression that setting up camp became THE compulsory action if you were out of cards and Indians! The wording in the original translation isn't all that different from the edited version on this particular point: camping was called "compulsory". So this thread has been an education for me.

The good news is it's my understanding that there will be an "amended" rulebook in the next English printing of Lewis&Clark.


I hope you didn't take my remark as a criticism. It wasn't intended to be at all, just an observation. It seems to me that the most difficult part of making a game is writing the rulebook.

Structuring one in such a way that everything is clear to everyone must be impossible.
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Andrew MacLeod
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MDJD wrote:


I hope you didn't take my remark as a criticism. It wasn't intended to be at all, just an observation. It seems to me that the most difficult part of making a game is writing the rulebook.

Structuring one in such a way that everything is clear to everyone must be impossible.


No, no: not at all! I merely responded to point out the reason why this section was "very difficult to edit out": based on the translation, this editor thought it was actually the rule! Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
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Jeff Thornsen
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I also remembered another reason why a player might not set up Camp at the end of their turn, even if it looks like they will be forced to Camp at the start of their next turn.

If a player has some equipment and fur, but they can't afford to recruit any of the currently available characters - they can wait until next turn when the available characters may be different. In such a case, it may be possible to recruit + play a character before setting up Camp.
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Eloy Koenders
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Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the answers. These make sense. I only played halve a game so far. I like it al lot and will play it much more.
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Sean Boyll
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To be clear:

The English rules as written state; if you can't play a card or Indian you will make camp as your compulsory action. The rules also state you cannot do both making camp and purchasing a character in the same turn. This means that if you have to make camp because you can't play cards/Indian, the only thing you can do is make camp.

However; the rules are meant to be, if you cannot do your compulsory action then your optional action must be setting up camp so you can?

Faranim wrote:
I also remembered another reason why a player might not set up Camp at the end of their turn, even if it looks like they will be forced to Camp at the start of their next turn.

If a player has some equipment and fur, but they can't afford to recruit any of the currently available characters - they can wait until next turn when the available characters may be different. In such a case, it may be possible to recruit + play a character before setting up Camp.


But a player cannot buy a character if they still will not be able to do their compulsory action, correct?
And a player can still not setup camp and purchase on their turn?
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Jon
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SPBTooL wrote:
The rules also state you cannot do both making camp and purchasing a character in the same turn.


I don't recall this rule! I'll confirm it at some future point (I'm away from my games at the moment); if you can quote the portion of the rules that state this, (it will save me time later) I'd appreciate it! Mahalo!
 
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Andrew MacLeod
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SPBTooL wrote:
To be clear:

The English rules as written state; if you can't play a card or Indian you will make camp as your compulsory action.


They don't actually say that; but it could be misinterpreted that way. What is the actual meaning is that setting up camp is mandatory, but it is not your compulsory action.

SPBTooL wrote:
The rules also state you cannot do both making camp and purchasing a character in the same turn.


On the contrary: on the top of page 4, it reads as follows:

"On your turn, you must perform an Action. In addition to this compulsory Action, you can set up Camp. You can also Recruit a new Character."

The only restriction is that you can't optionally set up Camp and Recruit a new Character simultaneously: it would have to be done at different points in the turn.



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Sean Boyll
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amacleod wrote:
SPBTooL wrote:
To be clear:

The English rules as written state; if you can't play a card or Indian you will make camp as your compulsory action.


They don't actually say that; but it could be misinterpreted that way. What is the actual meaning is that setting up camp is mandatory, but it is not your compulsory action.

SPBTooL wrote:
The rules also state you cannot do both making camp and purchasing a character in the same turn.


On the contrary: on the top of page 4, it reads as follows:

"On your turn, you must perform an Action. In addition to this compulsory Action, you can set up Camp. You can also Recruit a new Character."

The only restriction is that you can't optionally set up Camp and Recruit a new Character simultaneously: it would have to be done at different points in the turn.


Okay. Nothing really says you can do both optional actions. We took the "simultaneously" restriction and the wording of the optional camp action becoming compulsory to mean that there is the compulsory action and an optional phase that can be either encampment or purchasing.

That might explain why our game seamed to go longer than I expected.
 
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Chris Poulsen
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SPBTooL wrote:

Okay. Nothing really says you can do both optional actions. We took the "simultaneously" restriction and the wording of the optional camp action becoming compulsory to mean that there is the compulsory action and an optional phase that can be either encampment or purchasing.

That might explain why our game seamed to go longer than I expected.


We assumed the exact same thing. I thought "simultaneously" would mean that you could not camp and recruit in the same turn. If you can camp and recruit in the same turn then why even mention the restriction on "simultaneously" in the rules at all?

I can only see 4 scenarios where you could do these simultaneously in the same turn:

1) You could take your main action, then recruit, the camp. This would be a horrible move since you would now have an additional card that would cause you to loose more time.

2) You could take your main action, then camp, then recruit. I guess this could be useful to allow you to hurry and recruit someone that you really need before you turn is over but then you're going to have to camp with all the necessary resources to hire the recruit and that could be a costly move.

3) You could camp, then recruit, then take your main action. This has the same problem as scenario 2 where you will have to camp with all the resources required to hire the recruit which could be costly.

4) You could recruit, then camp, then take your main action. This has the same problem as scenario 1 where you will now have an additional recruit in you had that will cause you to loose time.

Every one of those scenarios has some punishment so unless you really needed to do them you likely wouldn't do them anyway. This leads me to believe that the rules were intended to mean "you can either camp or recruit, but you can not do both in the same turn." Does anyone have any concrete evidence that you definitely can both camp and recruit in the same turn?

 
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Andrew MacLeod
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MCP Style wrote:


Every one of those scenarios has some punishment so unless you really needed to do them you likely wouldn't do them anyway. This leads me to believe that the rules were intended to mean "you can either camp or recruit, but you can not do both in the same turn." Does anyone have any concrete evidence that you definitely can both camp and recruit in the same turn?


Quoting myself a few posts back:
Quote:

On the contrary: on the top of page 4, it reads as follows:
"On your turn, you must perform an Action. In addition to this compulsory Action, you can set up Camp. You can also Recruit a new Character."
 
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Chris Poulsen
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Quote:

On the contrary: on the top of page 4, it reads as follows:
"On your turn, you must perform an Action. In addition to this compulsory Action, you can set up Camp. You can also Recruit a new Character."


The rules state, "Those two phases are optional (camping and recruiting): each of them can be done any time during the player’s turn, before or after the compulsory Action, but never simultaneously."

From this I understand the "each" means "both" can be done before or after your compulsory action. The "each" is just letting you know that the following written rule applies to both of the phases.

The last phrase at the end of the sentence clarifies that they can not be done simultaneously. From that I understand that they either can't be done back to back in the same turn or that they can't both be done on the same turn at all. I'm not trying to be difficult but I can see a valid argument for both. Actually, as I stated before, it seems silly to do them back to back so I feel like the designers intentionally added this rule to clarify that both phases can not be completed on the same turn...
 
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Andrew MacLeod
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MCP Style wrote:
Quote:

On the contrary: on the top of page 4, it reads as follows:
"On your turn, you must perform an Action. In addition to this compulsory Action, you can set up Camp. You can also Recruit a new Character."


The rules state, "Those two phases are optional (camping and recruiting): each of them can be done any time during the player’s turn, before or after the compulsory Action, but never simultaneously."

From this I understand the "each" means "both" can be done before or after your compulsory action. The "each" is just letting you know that the following written rule applies to both of the phases.

The last phrase at the end of the sentence clarifies that they can not be done simultaneously. From that I understand that they either can't be done back to back in the same turn or that they can't both be done on the same turn at all. I'm not trying to be difficult but I can see a valid argument for both. Actually, as I stated before, it seems silly to do them back to back so I feel like the designers intentionally added this rule to clarify that both phases can not be completed on the same turn...


The qualifier is the word "each": if you could only do one or the other action, the word would be "either".
 
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Ilias Sellountos
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"but never simultaneously" refers to the compulsory action and simply means you cannot, for example, collect some goods from your action, use them to recruit a character, then collect some more.

There is no limitation of doing both of these optional actions every single turn if you wish to.
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Chris Poulsen
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So, would it be legal to have a turn as follows:

1) Play a character from your hand or place an Indian on the board to perform and action.

2) Recruit a new character to your deck.

3) Camp.

OR

1) Play a character from your hand or place an Indian on the board to perform and action.

2) Camp.

3) Recruit a new character to your deck.

Basically what I'm after is can you camp or recruit back to back in either order? Or another way of asking this question is can you perform your three actions (main action, recruiting, and camping) in any order you want on your turn?
 
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Andrew MacLeod
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MCP Style wrote:
So, would it be legal to have a turn as follows:

1) Play a character from your hand or place an Indian on the board to perform and action.

2) Recruit a new character to your deck.

3) Camp.

OR

1) Play a character from your hand or place an Indian on the board to perform and action.

2) Camp.

3) Recruit a new character to your deck.

Basically what I'm after is can you camp or recruit back to back in either order? Or another way of asking this question is can you perform your three actions (main action, recruiting, and camping) in any order you want on your turn?


Yes to all.
 
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