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Subject: Can Outposts/Embassies Attack Without Fleets/Agents? rss

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E Thomas
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Since Embassies have a range of one and Outposts have a range of 0, 1, or 2, I assume that they can attack within range without a unit. But the action cards suggest the need for a unit. But the rules say that both parts of a conflict action (unit movement and the attack) are optional, suggesting again that no units need to be moved or even involved (as long as range is respected).

So is it the case that all buildings can attack without units assuming that the range rules are respected?

Thanks!

Eric
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Oliver Kiley
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No, outposts and embassies cannot attack, the iconology on the action cards is correct. Those bases have to use units, fleets or agents to attack. Industrial complexes are the exception as they can attack.
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Jean Comeau
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Hi Oliver!

I am a bit confused by your reply. On page 14 of the rulebook it is often hinted that the bases can attack. Especially when you look at the "Declaring and Targeting Conflicts" section where it says "... Determines what type of Base or Unit can attack,...".

If I understand your reply correctly the only type of base that could initiate an attack is the industrial base. If so do you think it should explicitely say so in the rulebook?

Thank you.

Jean
 
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E Thomas
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Mezmorki wrote:
No, outposts and embassies cannot attack, the iconology on the action cards is correct. Those bases have to use units, fleets or agents to attack. Industrial complexes are the exception as they can attack.


Thanks for the clarification Oliver. I'm glad you chimed in, I would have never came to this conclusion from the rulebook.

So when you say "units", does that mean that Embassies and Outposts can attack through a quantum gate (which is the only other unit in the game)?

Edit: The light bulb just went off, the first two bullets under Declaring and Targeting Conflicts on pg. 14 define that the attack must match a pattern shown on the chosen action card. Since no action card shows an Outpost or Embassy attacking as a possible action, that makes this type of attack impossible.

Eric
 
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Henry Allen
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comeauj wrote:
Hi Oliver!

I am a bit confused by your reply. On page 14 of the rulebook it is often hinted that the bases can attack. Especially when you look at the "Declaring and Targeting Conflicts" section where it says "... Determines what type of Base or Unit can attack,...".

If I understand your reply correctly the only type of base that could initiate an attack is the industrial base. If so do you think it should explicitely say so in the rulebook?

Thank you.

Jean


rules wrote:
...and these must match the type shown on the Action Card
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James Mathe
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Think of your fleets and agents as laser pointers and they only funnel the power of the outposts or factions to a sector to initiate conflict.

James
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Jean Comeau
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Hi James!

I understand your analogy. I agree that agents and fleets can initiate attacks on behalf of their types (political and military respectively).

My main point is that when you read the rulebook you have no hint at all that the only type of base that can start an attack by itself (without one of its related units present in the conflict sector) is the industrial type.

The action cards are a different matter. As Oliver mentioned their iconology clearly indicates that industrial complexes (in yellow) can attack on their own, and it appears they are the only base type that can do it.

It is when you compare these action cards with the rulebook that things get confusing. As the OP mentioned things like the unit move being optional before an attack, and the fact that the rulebook mentions base types and not just industrial type specifically.

Finally I have another question regarding the action cards iconology. Can the types of the attacker and defender be the same? If you look at the action cards for example you cannot have military VS military.

Henry: i do not understand your reply. Are you echoing my thoughts or are you giving me an answer? Edit: I think I understand what you are saying now. You refer to the action cards iconology.

Jean
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Oliver Kiley
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comeauj wrote:
Hi James!

I understand your analogy. I agree that agents and fleets can initiate attacks on behalf of their types (political and military respectively).

My main point is that when you read the rulebook you have no hint at all that the only type of base that can start an attack by itself (without one of its related units present in the conflict sector) is the industrial type.


Well, this is said in quite a few places:

(1) The iconography of the cards don't show Embassies or Fleets attacking

(2) The descriptions of those specific actions on Page 12 reinforce the above.

(3) Page 14 under "Declaring + Targeting Conflicts" the first bullet type says "The Attacker must declare which of their Bases or Units will carry out the attack, and these must match the type shown on the Action Card (and the chosen attack pattern)."

(4) 4th big bullet point in the same section, "Each individual Agent, Fleet, or group of Complexes can only be used to attack once during each Phase"

Regardless, point taken that's confusing. I'm working on a FAQ and will add this as item.

As an aside, we used to have a note on Page 15 after the name of each unit or base that said whether that unit could "only defend" versus "attach and/or defend." That was confusing people for a whole different reason so we pulled it out.

Quote:
Finally I have another question regarding the action cards iconology. Can the types of the attacker and defender be the same? If you look at the action cards for example you cannot have military VS military.


The military vs. military conflict action is on the Martialize Action card. Poltical vs political and industrial vs. industrial is on the Politicize and Industrialize action cards respectively.

Hope that helps!
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James Mathe
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Conflict within the same power-type (Military vs Military, etc) is done on the #2 cards. These #2 cards have the build actions so they are taken 80% of the time and thus the Arbiter determines turn order a large amount of the time.

To have conflict outside of your offensive power (Military vs Political, etc) then you MUST take either a #1 or #3 action. Thus, you either go fast and cheap with the #1 to destroy (remove them from the sector) for scoring reasons or you try to do the slower takeover actions on the #3 card.

I get your point. We'll add it to the FAQ and when/if we do a reprint we'll try to make sure all FAQ stuff gets into the manual.

James
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Henry Allen
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comeauj wrote:

Henry: i do not understand your reply. Are you echoing my thoughts or are you giving me an answer? Edit: I think I understand what you are saying now. You refer to the action cards iconology.

Jean


Yup, I was just pointing out that the iconology indicates what can do what.
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Jean Comeau
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Hi all.

Thank you for your quick replies.

I think I understand better now. I should remember that a "complex" can only be of type industrial, as other types are embassies and outposts.

I will rely therefore on what the action cards are depicting, and re-read the rulebook before asking questions that are already answered!blush

You are right Oliver about the defend-only mentions on page 15; it was a bit confusing.

Everything is coherent now, so case closed!

Thanks again.

Jean
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John McCoy
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Just chiming in to say that when four of us played for the first time yesterday, we also found this confusing at first. We eventually found our way to the correct understanding, but it took a fair bit of analyzing the rules and parsing out the examples. We never really noticed the specific interplay between the icons on the cards. So, IMHO anyway, the game might be easier for newbies like us if the rules stated very explicitly what the requirements are to make an attack.
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