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Subject: Help dispute me and my brother's playstyles argument rss

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Michael Redston
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First, some background: Our gaming "group" consists of just me and my brother. We don't attend tournaments or play with other groups (the Netrunner scene in Israel isn't great, but that's besides the point).

Now for the dispute: My brother claims he plays to have fun and that I play to win. For some reason he thinks these two things contradict each other. He gets really angry if I build my decks specifically to counter his. I've suggested he do the same, but he claims he doesn't want to stoop to my level. He cares a lot about what happens in the competitive world abroad, and usually build his decks from decklists of tourmanent decks of top 8 and above. I never use decklists to build my decks.

Weird enough yet? Well get this: He claims that the only sideboard cards allowed in a "friendly" game are those that everyone plays. So Plascrete to counter Tag & Bag is ok in his book, but Net Shield to counter Jinteki isn't; and that Rabbit hole is cool against NBN if you're playing a Shaper, but is a no-no in any other faction. I've tried explaining him that out "meta" is just him and me, but he keeps regressing to the "friendly game" argument.

He also doesn't want me playing cards that "nobody plays", and he actually calls it cheating. He claims that playing to win is only legit in tournaments, and that every player in the world when playing friendly games with his friends will never build his deck to counter his friends'.

He comes up with these insane guidlines and he doesn't just wish that everyone follow them, he insists that everyone already does. Everyone but me, that is.

He claims that building decks that counter his takes the fun out of the game, which is why he doesn't want to do the same.

In conclusion: He wants me to build a deck as if I don't know what I'll be playing against, and that if I do I'm only allowed to put sideboard cards "everyone plays"; and I want him to play like me. So I offered a compromise, that each of us would build decks the way he sees fit and stay out of the other's metaphorical plate. He declined.

My brother is a stubborn one, so I doubt you could reason with him, but if you at least try and help him understand I'd be grateful. Thanks.
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Justin
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Sounds like you should find some new opponents.
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Roberta Yang
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Netrunner is full of crazy silver bullet hosers and gets stupid if you can build your deck specifically to counter a single specific opponent whose deck you know in advance. Also you post here way too much for someone who barely even plays this game.
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mks
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disclaimer: I do also play for fun (with additional board-gamey rules to randomize the decks.

kroen wrote:
He gets really angry if I build my decks specifically to counter his. I've suggested he do the same, but he claims he doesn't want to stoop to my level.


you don't get to do that even in tournament style.

kroen wrote:
He cares a lot about what happens in the competitive world abroad, and usually build his decks from decklists of tourmanent decks of top 8 and above. I never use decklists to build my decks.


If he tries to try them out, why do you want to explicitely ruin that?

kroen wrote:
Weird enough yet? Well get this: He claims that the only sideboard cards allowed in a "friendly" game are those that everyone plays. So Plascrete to counter Tag & Bag is ok in his book, but Net Shield to counter Jinteki isn't; and that Rabbit hole is cool against NBN if you're playing a Shaper, but is a no-no in any other faction. I've tried explaining him that out "meta" is just him and me, but he keeps regressing to the "friendly game" argument.

He also doesn't want me playing cards that "nobody plays", and he actually calls it cheating.


This however sounds just silly. If those cards exist and it is legal to use them, why to restrict that?

kroen wrote:
He claims that playing to win is only legit in tournaments


This sounds weird as well, but hey, if he want a less competitive play, you should arrange for something in between. I can get that playing everytime to destroy the opponent and doing so by countering his deck, sounds weak.

kroen wrote:
every player in the world when playing friendly games with his friends will never build his deck to counter his friends'.

He claims that building decks that counter his takes the fun out of the game, which is why he doesn't want to do the same.


I totally agree. I wouldn't do so myself neither.

kroen wrote:
In conclusion: He wants me to build a deck as if I don't know what I'll be playing against, and that if I do I'm only allowed to put sideboard cards "everyone plays"; and I want him to play like me. So I offered a compromise, that each of us would build decks the way he sees feet and stay out of the other's metaphorical plate. He declined.


Why not another compromise: a couple of times your way, a couple his??

kroen wrote:
My brother is a stubborn one, so I doubt you could reason with him, but if you at least try and help him understand I'd be grateful. Thanks.


I guess I try to reason with you more than with your brother.

Additional note: if you can sometimes make a game fun for your opponents, why wouldn't you try? No matter what the game is, and how proud are you of your before play devastating preparations.
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General Norris
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You know, as much as I love banging the competitive drum, playing cards like Net Shield and Rabbit Hole, out of faction, in casual play, because you prefer winning to your opponent having fun is pretty much a dick move.

I'll be frank, if someone decided to do this, I wouldn't play with them. What's the point?
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Phillip Edwards
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This should be another interesting kroen thread!
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Gin Teki
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kroen wrote:
My brother is a stubborn one, so I doubt you could reason with him, but if you at least try and help him understand I'd be grateful. Thanks.


When reasoning with someone, it's crucial to know the person's level of maturity so that you may find the correct way to explain things to them. May I ask, how old are you and your brother?
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Phillip Edwards
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Android: Netrunner doesn't have sideboard rules.
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Michael Redston
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General_Norris wrote:
You know, as much as I love banging the competitive drum, playing cards like Net Shield and Rabbit Hole, out of faction, in casual play, because you prefer winning to your opponent having fun is pretty much a dick move.

I'll be frank, if someone decided to do this, I wouldn't play with them. What's the point?

He claims playing Access to Globalsec is also a dick move because "nobody plays it". He even admitted that if everyone played Rabbit Hole and Net Shield out-of-faction then he would have no problem whatsoever with me playing them.
Searlichek wrote:
When reasoning with someone, it's crucial to know the person's level of maturity so that you may find the correct way to explain things to them. May I ask, how old are you and your brother?

I'm 25, he's 26.
 
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Matt Sargent
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My brother is a stubborn one, so I doubt you could reason with him, but if you at least try and help him understand I'd be grateful. Thanks.

Your brother isn't here, so let's try to help *you* understand.

From what you've said, it sounds like the issue is this. You build decks knowing what your opponent is playing. Your brother does not. Knowing what your opponent is playing is an advantage. Your brother's complaint is that he doesn't have this advantage.

Your brother has suggested that you pretend not to have knowledge of his deck when you build yours. For example, when you put in Plascrete against Weyland, you're doing it because everyone runs Plascrete, but when you put Rabbit Hole in against NBN, you're doing it because you know he's running NBN.

I don't think that is a good solution because then you guys will argue about whether or not "everyone is running card X." I think you should each build a deck a the same time, without telling each other what you're building. Then play those decks against each other for a while. Then stop and build decks at the same time again.
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Douglas Buel
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So, your brother is mad because you're not netdecking like he is.
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Patrick Jamet
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kroen wrote:
My brother claims he plays to have fun and that I play to win.

[He] usually builds his decks from decklists of tourmanent decks of top 8 and above. I never use decklists to build my decks.


I see like a contradiction, a paradox.
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bestia immonda
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Why is it you and not your netdecker bro that is always around here?
This is strange
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Drake Villareal
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Offer to switch decks after each game, show him clever play beats hard-anti-tech.
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Gin Teki
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kroen wrote:
Now for the dispute: My brother claims he plays to have fun and that I play to win. For some reason he thinks these two things contradict each other. He gets really angry if I build my decks specifically to counter his. I've suggested he do the same, but he claims he doesn't want to stoop to my level. He cares a lot about what happens in the competitive world abroad, and usually build his decks from decklists of tourmanent decks of top 8 and above. I never use decklists to build my decks.


If he's only using top level decks then he is in fact also playing to win. He's just too lazy to build his own.

kroen wrote:
Weird enough yet? Well get this: He claims that the only sideboard cards allowed in a "friendly" game are those that everyone plays. So Plascrete to counter Tag & Bag is ok in his book, but Net Shield to counter Jinteki isn't; and that Rabbit hole is cool against NBN if you're playing a Shaper, but is a no-no in any other faction. I've tried explaining him that out "meta" is just him and me, but he keeps regressing to the "friendly game" argument.


Ironically, here he is restricting you to cards so that he knows exactly what you're 'allowed' to play as well.

kroen wrote:
He also doesn't want me playing cards that "nobody plays", and he actually calls it cheating. He claims that playing to win is only legit in tournaments, and that every player in the world when playing friendly games with his friends will never build his deck to counter his friends'.


If he built/tinkered with his decks, you;d never know fully what you were up against. Problem solved.

kroen wrote:

He claims that building decks that counter his takes the fun out of the game, which is why he doesn't want to do the same. In conclusion: He wants me to build a deck as if I don't know what I'll be playing against, and that if I do I'm only allowed to put sideboard cards "everyone plays"; and I want him to play like me. So I offered a compromise, that each of us would build decks the way he sees fit and stay out of the other's metaphorical plate. He declined.


One thing bothers me here. I assume you both keep your corporations/runners secret before the game begins, so how exactly can you be playing a deck specifically designed to counter his when you don't know what it is?
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Kevin Jones
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kroen wrote:
He claims playing Access to Globalsec is also a dick move because "nobody plays it". He even admitted that if everyone played Rabbit Hole and Net Shield out-of-faction then he would have no problem whatsoever with me playing them.

That's a very subjective statement to make. Ask him for proof that nobody plays Access to Globalsec, or any other link-specific booster.

I do agree that playing to win is not necessarily playing for fun. I also agree that "sideboarding" is cheap in Netrunner; either prepare for all situations or none of them. Sure, you can make a deck specifically to counter his, but that'll make you weak against most other decks. A good deck is one that is flexible enough to encounter any deck you might come across. Net damage is primarily Jinteki, but splashed into other decks can be absorbed most of the time.

I do think the problem is a philosophical one, and one you need to work out yourself or with your brother. Neither philosophy is right or wrong, and you'll need to deal with these if you want to resolve... whatever exactly the issue is. Perhaps you two just need to find other players to play against, who more closely mirror your own approaches to the games.
 
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Fredrik Zetterman
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I must agree with your brother, building and developing decks is no fun if the first thing that happens is that your only opponent hard-counter them. I play with a few different groups, but with one group I know some players try to hard-counter the meta that exists in that single group.

I won't argue with them against their choices, but I know that some of their decks wouldn't survive tournament play and is only good in our local meta. I believe that this is what your brother is frustrated about, that he wants to build decks that are good in general, against multiple opponents, while you try to beat his deck specifically.

That said, it's silly of him to argue that you cannot use such and such card because no-one plays it.


To me the solution is simple: Try and put together a few decks each(say 4 runner and 4 corp decks). Since you only play against each other, decklists will suffice. Then play a mini-tournament with those decks. That way you'll still have a local meta, but hard-counters will be worthless in some matchups. The winner is the one that does best with his worst-performing runner/corp pair
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Michael Redston
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Searlichek wrote:


One thing bothers me here. I assume you both keep your corporations/runners secret before the game begins, so how exactly can you be playing a deck specifically designed to counter his when you don't know what it is?

It's simple: We share our cards. Currently we have two core sets and the Genesis cycle, so we can't both be playing the same factions without trading too many cards between games. Even currently when we play different factions there are usally quite a few cards we have to trade after each game. (We each have a runner and a corp deck.)
 
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Agent 57
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Buy moar cards.

You are both wrong. It is asinine to forcibly restrict certain cards from being played with his reasoning. Putting in hard counters to tweak your deck is weak-sauce. So is netdecking since it is trying to win without any deck building skill of his own.

Your meta is you two, playing the meta game is part of winning. With all the cries of Kattman and Andromeda you should be building decks that stop their shenanigans, they make up such a high percentage of decks if you aren't I would say you are playing poorly.


If you each have a set of cards then you can't read his build. When you start taking your deck he should just netdeck a new one. This way you both can play the game the way you want. With enough netdecking on his part you'll have a constantly moving target forcing you too include more general counters to the top popular decks and by doing so you will be able to handle most of the stuff he steals of the Internet, meaning he has to start getting creative.
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Let's you both create more various decks and pick at random before each game. That could reduce your meta dependancy.
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Billy Martin
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It sounds to me like your brother does like playing competitively, but he wants to play competitively as if your meta did not just consist of the two of you. So for him, having you put in cards specifically to counter his deck seems a little unfair, because you wouldn't be putting those cards in if it wasn't just the two of you. He probably wants to meet you in a competitive space as though the two of you were going to be using those exact same decks to play other people as well.

You say you have two core sets and the Genesis cycle. I have a few suggestions for you.

1) Each of you build decks on cardgamedb.com ahead of time. You each have to make a corp and runner deck without having any idea what decks the other person is playing. This way he can't possibly complain if you are playing Net Shield or Access to Globalsec, because you picked those cards without knowing what his deck is. If you play Net Shield and he isn't playing a net damage deck, it's a dead card. That's the trade-off of Net Shield.

The way you will get this to work with your limited card pool is as follows. You get all the runner cards and he gets all the corp cards. You build your runner deck and he builds his corp deck (from your pre-planned decklists, so it shouldn't take too long), then you play a few games (no side-boarding), and then you switch sides.

2) Buy two more core sets, so you have four core sets total, plus the Genesis Cycle. This will give you enough cards to build one deck for every faction. What's good about this is he can have multiple decks to choose from without you automatically knowing what he is playing. So, for example, he could take all the corp cards, make four decks, one for each faction, and you could take all the runner cards and build 3 or 4 runner decks, and then you can play all the decks against each other. Pair them up randomly so you don't know specifically what you'll be up against with each deck. The next day you switch sides and do it again.

3) Play a draft. I think this might help get your brother to buy into your play-style, because drafts are very much strategically about paying attention to what the other person is drafting and taking cards to counter them, or hate-drafting the cards that counter your own deck. With two people you can do a draft with a single core set. It's fun. Or you can develop your own cube possibly based on the Cyber War set from FFG.

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Vincent Perry
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I think I get where he is coming from. But didn't you post a while back about your brother building a deck specifically to counter yours? I think so because my recommendation was to do the exact same thing to him.

Since it's just the two of you the solution is simple. Each of you need to have 2 or 3 deck (lists) to play, and you need to keep tweaking and changing the decks. That is how you simulate having lots of different play partners. Your brother could easily solve the problem by making a different deck, so he can solve the problem all on his own.
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Michael Redston
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theodorelogan wrote:
I think I get where he is coming from. But didn't you post a while back about your brother building a deck specifically to counter yours? I think so because my recommendation was to do the exact same thing to him.

Yeah, about that. He built a Whizzard deck because he wanted to try out the ID and not to speficifally counter mine. Why did he put Scrubber? Well he claims it's because I told him to, because that would have been a strong card against my deck. Well yes, I did tell him to, but now he's not willing to it again.
 
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Maybe Next Time
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What Jopejope said - build your decks online and ahead of time, without knowing what the other guy will play. Then build the decks and play. You should bring decks that you've built with the whole playing field in mind.

I hope your current sideboarding does not mean that you play a game vs your brother, see what he's playing then change your deck to directly counter his and continue playing with that deck. That would be dickish, I'd say.
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Guido Gloor
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I'm confused by the term "sideboard" in this particular game. Android: Netrunner's sideboarding rules are incredibly simple: There is no sideboard whatsoever.
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