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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition) – Labyrinth of Ruin» Forums » Rules

Subject: Crazy Shadow Hunter rss

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Roman Makarsky
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I've looked through some forums to find information concerning this stuff, but haven't actually found an answer, so now I'm counting on your help

Beastmaster's "Shadow Hunter" Card reads:
"Before activating your Wolf, you may choose to perform an attack with it, rolling the dice shown below. Then your Wolf is defeated."

This doesn't count as the Wolf's activation (FAQ), and this doesn't require a Beastmaster's action.

So, I can find no contradictions to a scenario like this, which seems to me a really crazy and overpowered one:

Beastmaster starts his activation adjacent to a strong monster, with a wolf already summoned. He uses Shadow Hunter, making a very powerful attack with the wolf. Then (first action) he summons the wolf back, and uses Shadow Hunter again (the wolf still has not been activated!). As a second action he could do just the same, making the total sum of 3 attacks with 2 Red + 2 Green dice!

What am I missing? It definitely shouldn't work like this, but I really don't know why
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Arto H
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Seems totally legit. I feel they especially allowed and cleared this play with the FAQ answer.
 
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Raphael Pigulla
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makar wrote:
Beastmaster's "Shadow Hunter" Card reads:
"Before activating your Wolf, you may choose to perform an attack with it, rolling the dice shown below. Then your Wolf is defeated."

You could argue the following:

The wording implies that Shadow Hunter "triggers" when you activate your familiar, except that it interrupts that activation and immediately defeats the wolf.

Thus, after Shadow Hunter is resolved, your wolf has effectively activated (although it didn't get its regular two actions). This means that Shadow Hunter can not be used again because the trigger (activating your familiar) can not occur.
 
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Arto H
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n3rd wrote:
makar wrote:
Beastmaster's "Shadow Hunter" Card reads:
"Before activating your Wolf, you may choose to perform an attack with it, rolling the dice shown below. Then your Wolf is defeated."

You could argue the following:

The wording implies that Shadow Hunter "triggers" when you activate your familiar, except that it interrupts that activation and immediately defeats the wolf.

Thus, after Shadow Hunter is resolved, your wolf has effectively activated (although it didn't get its regular two actions). This means that Shadow Hunter can not be used again because the trigger (activating your familiar) can not occur.

The new FAQ says:

Q: If the Beastmaster performs the special attack with the Wolf using
“Shadow Hunter,” does that count as the Wolf ’s activation?
A: No.

I think the reason they said this was to allow the Shadow Hunter play. 2 red dice and 2 green dice is not so powerful anyway when you start counting. It is very good at the ActI but starts to lose value in ActII because wolf don't have so many surge abilities. Beastmaster is only selected to make damage so he has to be practically best class in that. Other damage classes have other very good skills (Runemaster Runic Sorcery or Berserker Cripple). Beastmaster is missing all control skills so he is only a damage dealer.
 
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Raphael Pigulla
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Fair enough, I missed that in the FAQ then.
 
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Roman Makarsky
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aHein wrote:
2 red dice and 2 green dice is not so powerful anyway when you start counting. It is very good at the ActI but starts to lose value in ActII because wolf don't have so many surge abilities.

Well, in Act 1 the dice as given make an average of 6 hearts + surge on Pierce 1. Let's take a Ettin, for example, with 2 gray defence dice making an average of 3 shields on the roll. This results in 4 dmg per attack (and no chance of a miss), killing even a master ettin in less than a single turn.

As for Act 2, this can be combined with Changing Skins (this will provide only two suicidal wolfs, but an additional BM's attack also) and with Savagery (2 red + 3 green). So, with new surge abilities, this will still give us a freaking killing machine, in my opinion.
 
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Roman Makarsky
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As for what is written in the FAQ, this I think should allow just activating your new wolf after Shadow Hunter, not using the skill again...
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Arto H
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makar wrote:
aHein wrote:
2 red dice and 2 green dice is not so powerful anyway when you start counting. It is very good at the ActI but starts to lose value in ActII because wolf don't have so many surge abilities.

Well, in Act 1 the dice as given make an average of 6 hearts + surge on Pierce 1. Let's take a Ettin, for example, with 2 gray defence dice making an average of 3 shields on the roll. This results in 4 dmg per attack (and no chance of a miss), killing even a master ettin in less than a single turn.

As for Act 2, this can be combined with Changing Skins (this will provide only two suicidal wolfs, but an additional BM's attack also) and with Savagery (2 red + 3 green). So, with new surge abilities, this will still give us a freaking killing machine, in my opinion.

I think it will be quite rare that wolf will start next to monster so 3 uses of Shadow Hunter is very rare. Also 2 uses requires Beastmaster to be very close to target. Usually it will be 1-2 uses. Shadow Hunter is still very powerful.

My experience with Descent is that usually all monsters will stay on board maximum of 1-2 rounds anyway. Also if a monster (usually a shadow dragon) ever gets to attack someone at least half of the party will be usually down with Frenzy, Blood Rage etc. card unloading. So I don't find high damage abilities so strong because there are quite many of those already. Beast master is very high damage class but he can be a bit slow because needing to rest sometimes (still a good class, just avoid the high fatigue skillls).

What makes the Beastmaster amazing is Runemaster immobilizing monsters with Runic Sorcery. After that Beastmaster can freely kill the targets with Shadow Hunter 2 spaces away. But Runemaster makes many parties great so that doesn't matter so much with Beastmaster.
 
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Stephen Williams
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To me, the phrase "Before activating your wolf" means you can only trigger the Shadow Hunter ability immediately before you would have activated the wolf. I know that Shadow Hunter doesn't count as the wolf's activation itself, per the FAQ, but this subtlety does mean that Shadow Hunter can only be triggered before or after the Beastmaster's own turn.

You can't activate the wolf in between the Beastmaster's two actions, therefore you can't trigger Shadow Hunter in between his actions.

That means, at best, you get two Shadow Hunter attacks out of the Wolf in a single turn, one before the Beastmaster acts and another after he is finished (having re-summoned the wolf with one of his two actions.) The Wolf will not be left on the board after the second attack, so you won't be able to do the same thing again next turn, either. (Because you won't be able to re-summon the Wolf until the Beastmaster begins his own turn, which means you've already missed the first of two opportunities to trigger Shadow Hunter.)

Also note that the Beastmaster will need to do everything he wants to do in between these two Shadow Hunter attacks. When he performs the second, he is indicating that the Beastmaster's own turn is done, which means he can't use any other abilities after that, whether they require an action to perform or not.

The skill is still pretty powerful by this interpretation, but I think it's within reason for a 2XP card. Overlords who are still wary of this should note that they also have an avenue to counter the two SH attack combo, if they can defeat the Wolf on the board before the next Beastmaster turn. Then he'll have to re-summon it and therefore only be able to make one SH attack.
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Arto H
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Stewi wrote:
To me, the phrase "Before activating your wolf" means you can only trigger the Shadow Hunter ability immediately before you would have activated the wolf. I know that Shadow Hunter doesn't count as the wolf's activation itself, per the FAQ, but this subtlety does mean that Shadow Hunter can only be triggered before or after the Beastmaster's own turn.

This could be the case but then I don't understand what they are trying to answer with the FAQ answer. If Shadow Hunter doesn't count as the wolf's activation itself I think it doesn't require an activation trigger either. What does it even matter then that Shadow Hunter is not counted as the wolf's activation because wolf is defeated anyway. I am a bit confused in what example that FAQ is trying to answer.
 
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Roman Makarsky
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Stewi wrote:
To me, the phrase "Before activating your wolf" means you can only trigger the Shadow Hunter ability immediately before you would have activated the wolf. I know that Shadow Hunter doesn't count as the wolf's activation itself, per the FAQ, but this subtlety does mean that Shadow Hunter can only be triggered before or after the Beastmaster's own turn.

You can't activate the wolf in between the Beastmaster's two actions, therefore you can't trigger Shadow Hunter in between his actions.

That means, at best, you get two Shadow Hunter attacks out of the Wolf in a single turn, one before the Beastmaster acts and another after he is finished (having re-summoned the wolf with one of his two actions.) The Wolf will not be left on the board after the second attack, so you won't be able to do the same thing again next turn, either. (Because you won't be able to re-summon the Wolf until the Beastmaster begins his own turn, which means you've already missed the first of two opportunities to trigger Shadow Hunter.)

Yeah, it seems to be exactly the case. Here's the official reply:

Quote:

He wouldn't be able to use "Shadow Hunter" in between his 2 actions, as he cannot activate the Wolf during that timing. He would, however, be able to use Shadow Hunter, resummon the Wolf with 1 of his 2 actions, then use Shadow Hunter again after his 2 actions.

Thanks,
Justin Kemppainen
Creative Content Developer
Fantasy Flight Games
jkemppainen@fantasyflightgames.com

It still looks a bit strange for me, but it at least gives us 2 suicidal wolfs, and not 3.
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Arto H
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Good to have official answer. Still hard to understand what is the idea of the FAQ answer.
 
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Roman Makarsky
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For the FAQ answer, it actually allows situations like
1) Shadow Hunter, summon the wolf, second action, Shadow Hunter;
2) Shadow Hunter, summon the wolf, second action, then activate the wolf as normal (move and attack).

Without a clarification that the skill is not activating the wolf, such would be impossible (first case - condition "before activating" is not met; second case - the wolf couldn't be activated for the second time in one turn).
 
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Brent Mair
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makar wrote:


It still looks a bit strange for me, but it at least gives us 2 suicidal wolfs, and not 3.

But not two every turn since the turn after you use Shadow Hunter twice the wolf wouldn't start on the board.
 
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Charles Burke
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Yeah, it would be limited to twice every other turn and once on the turns in between.
 
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Arto H
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makar wrote:
For the FAQ answer, it actually allows situations like
1) Shadow Hunter, summon the wolf, second action, Shadow Hunter;
2) Shadow Hunter, summon the wolf, second action, then activate the wolf as normal (move and attack).

Without a clarification that the skill is not activating the wolf, such would be impossible (first case - condition "before activating" is not met; second case - the wolf couldn't be activated for the second time in one turn).

Has this been answered somewhere because I am bit surprised if this is the case? I have always thought it is legal to activate a familiar start of your turn, then destroy your familiar with some effect, then summon familiar and activate it end of turn. If familiar dies it is "removed from the game". If familiar is summoned again it becomes a "new" familiar and it shouldn't have mattered what has happened before. This affects quite lot to how play Geomancer and Necromancer optimally.

EDIT
Seems like this in FAQ so the Shadow Hunter makes total sense now.
Q: Can the Necromancer activate his Reanimate familiar at the start of his
turn, voluntarily destroy it, spend an action during his turn to create a new
Reanimate familiar, and then activate this new Reanimate at the end of his
turn?
A: No, a familiar can only be activated once per round. Even though the
Reanimate was removed and placed again, it is still the same familiar.
 
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Tristan Raedwulf
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But in the new FAQ it states that shadow hunter ability does not count as the wolfs activation. So you would not be activating the wolf at all using shadow hunter and could use it multiple times. At least that's what I understood .
 
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Darren Nakamura
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upsidedown gamer wrote:
But in the new FAQ it states that shadow hunter ability does not count as the wolfs activation. So you would not be activating the wolf at all using shadow hunter and could use it multiple times. At least that's what I understood .

It doesn't count as the Wolf's activation, but it does still contain the clause "before activating your Wolf." So while it doesn't actually take the Wolf's activation, the rules for activating Familiars (Rulebook Page 17: Familiars may activate before or after the corresponding hero's activation but not during) and the fact that using the skill defeats the Wolf prevent it from happening more than twice on one turn.
 
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Stephen Williams
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upsidedown gamer wrote:
But in the new FAQ it states that shadow hunter ability does not count as the wolfs activation. So you would not be activating the wolf at all using shadow hunter and could use it multiple times. At least that's what I understood .

Yes, you can use it multiple times. The timing for when you can trigger the card, however, limits it to at most two uses per turn as Darren was saying.

If you use it before the Beastmaster's own turn, then you'll have to resummon the Wolf before you can use it again. Resummoning the Wolf requires the Beastmaster to begin his own turn, so you can't use it a second time "before the Beastmaster's own turn."

You can use it a second time "after the Beastmaster's own turn," but then you can't resummon the Wolf again because the Beastmaster's own turn is over.

So, assuming the Wolf is on the map when the heroes begin their turns, the Beastmaster will be able to use it once before himself, then resummon the Wolf, then use it again after himself, and the Wolf will be off the map thereafter. So next turn he won't even be able to do it twice because the Wolf won't start on the map for the "before his own turn" opportunity. By the time he gets to summoning the Wolf, it's too late.

HOWEVER, using Shadow Hunter is not the Wolf's activation itself. This is important because the Beastmaster may decide to use Shadow Hunter once, then resummon the Wolf, then activate the Wolf as normal, and that would be fine.

If using Shadow Hunter DID count as the Wolf's activation, that would be illegal. Per the FAQ question related to the Reanimate, you cannot activate a familiar, discard it, resummon it, and activate it again. This is why the second FAQ question about the Wolf and Shadow Hunter is so important.
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