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Subject: Does Russia need to be nerfed? rss

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RoyalRook
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see topic and discuss.
Poll
Does Russia need to be nerfed?
Yes
No
      44 answers
Poll created by royalrook2013

 
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Patrick Dettmar
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want to elaborate? ive never had a problem with russia being op
 
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Chris Casinghino
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Russia's special power helps speed up a tech victory. However, in my experience, it still doesn't happen quickly enough to beat a military or cultural player aiming to win in rounds 6-9, which I think is where good players are at these days. Social policies from the new expansion make a tech victory even quicker, but I don't think this synergizes well with Russia's special ability, since both usually help you get low-level techs, and you only need so many of them.

I certainly see Russia win occasionally, but it's usually when the fast military players get delayed a few rounds by culture cards or unlucky battles. They certainly don't feel strong enough to need a nerf.

If you are seeing a lot of tech victories, your games are probably going longer than average. But maybe you're concerned about something else?
 
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RoyalRook
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I am mainly concerned about Russia's ability to achieve easy military victory as well. +1 army figure, +1 stack limit, AND +1 battle hand along with communism make Russia an unstoppable military machine from very early on. Not to mention Russia will always have a hand on everything through spies.
 
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RoyalRook
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Maybe it's just me, but when I play Russia, I know I can win the game on every turn because I have so many weapons and options. Any reason on why you don't think Russia deserves a nerf?
 
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Steve G.
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I actually was going to post a question about Russia running away with the game, but decided to flip through a few forum pages first to see if it was an active topic, and sure enough, here we are.

The response is highly unexpected. Not only are responses quite few in number, but they're msotly inqenuous regarding the OP's question.

Seems to stand out like a spotlight to me. For the trifling cost of a unit, they get to steal techs from other players. Obviously, beelining travel techs is the way to go. Once they have Flight, they can just paradrop a unit at will.

How many techs should Russia reliably get? Four? Five? If it's that many or more, then there's a pretty simple equation here. Either Russia's ability is overpowered, or tech victories are so hard to win that only the ability to get those extra techs makes a tech victory possible.
 
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Stephen Dedalus

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steveg700 wrote:
How many techs should Russia reliably get? Four? Five? If it's that many or more, then there's a pretty simple equation here. Either Russia's ability is overpowered, or tech victories are so hard to win that only the ability to get those extra techs makes a tech victory possible.


I don't think Russia needs nerfing, and certainly not for its Tech ability, but I do see royalrook2013's point about Russia's strong military potential. Here's a reasonably performable scenario:

Turn 1: Start with 2 armies, stack limit 3, battle hand +1.
-Adopt Military Tradition.
-Build army (3rd), build a free unit card (4th).
-Explore tiles with 4 figures.
-Research Agriculture, grow into Metropolis.

Turn 2: (let's assume no Turn 2 city was possible)
-Build army (4th), build a free unit card (5th).
-Further explore tiles with 5 figures, clearing out huts or destroying villages, as necessary.
(This should be easy with 5 unit cards available and a 4 card battle hand--or all 5 unit cards if attacking villagers with a stack of 2 armies)
-Set up scout in good tile to become city (with at least 3 trade).
-Research Metalworking OR Navy, based on which one you can afford to build given your production in your capital or your future city (you should have 6 trade from your metropolis if you built it right. If you made it so you only get 5 trade, then your scout should have been placed on a desert square (or coin, I guess) at the start of Turn 2 for the 6th trade point).

Turn 3:
-Build new city, adopt Expansionism (5-6 trade from metropolis, 2 from Expansion and 3-4 from 2nd city = 11)
-Build Barracks/Shipyard with capital city (+2 combat).
-Build army with 2nd city (5th), get free unit card (6th).
-Advance armies toward an opponent.
-Researching Sailing to increase speed, or another Tech to upgrade military.

Turn 4:
-Build army (6th), get free unit card (7th).
-Build Barracks/Shipyard (+4 combat).
-Attack an opponents' figure or 2nd city if they are within range.

Now, if there was never going to be a target within range by Turn 4 movement, then Russia could spend Turn 4 doing something else productive, such as setting the stage for a 3rd city, or attacking villages.

That's a pretty good early game, and it's not even overly dependent on getting good map tiles (except 2 water barrier tiles, I guess). The key may be that Russia benefits very strongly from Military Tradition because of its higher stack limit and battle hand size.

That being said, I think a number of other civs have pretty good early turn strategies, as well. You could make the argument that Spain benefits from Military Tradition just as well (albeit a little differently).
 
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Steve G.
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jhport12 wrote:
steveg700 wrote:
How many techs should Russia reliably get? Four? Five? If it's that many or more, then there's a pretty simple equation here. Either Russia's ability is overpowered, or tech victories are so hard to win that only the ability to get those extra techs makes a tech victory possible.


I don't think Russia needs nerfing, and certainly not for its Tech ability

Thing is, you don't really answer the question or rebut the analysis I provided. If you don't think Russia getting a bunch of extra techs is overpowered, then climbing that pyramid without a bunch of bonus techs must not be a viable way to win the game. The logic is pretty axiomatic.

I guess I should infer from your response that you find that tech simply isn't as important of a consideration as military.
 
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RoyalRook
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steveg700 wrote:
jhport12 wrote:
steveg700 wrote:
How many techs should Russia reliably get? Four? Five? If it's that many or more, then there's a pretty simple equation here. Either Russia's ability is overpowered, or tech victories are so hard to win that only the ability to get those extra techs makes a tech victory possible.


I don't think Russia needs nerfing, and certainly not for its Tech ability

Thing is, you don't really answer the question or rebut the analysis I provided. If you don't think Russia getting a bunch of extra techs is overpowered, then climbing that pyramid without a bunch of bonus techs must not be a viable way to win the game. The logic is pretty axiomatic.

I guess I should infer from your response that you find that tech simply isn't as important of a consideration as military.


The thing about Russia is this, it's tech advantages also benefits tremendously on its military development. Around turn 4 I could manage an unstoppable military machine that is going to win the game for me in one or two turn, while still manage to stay ahead of the tech race. The power of communism is just too much to over come, not to mention spy will keep my opponents honest throughout. My point is this: Russia just have too many options and weapons.
 
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royalrook2013 wrote:
steveg700 wrote:
jhport12 wrote:
steveg700 wrote:
How many techs should Russia reliably get? Four? Five? If it's that many or more, then there's a pretty simple equation here. Either Russia's ability is overpowered, or tech victories are so hard to win that only the ability to get those extra techs makes a tech victory possible.


I don't think Russia needs nerfing, and certainly not for its Tech ability

Thing is, you don't really answer the question or rebut the analysis I provided. If you don't think Russia getting a bunch of extra techs is overpowered, then climbing that pyramid without a bunch of bonus techs must not be a viable way to win the game. The logic is pretty axiomatic.

I guess I should infer from your response that you find that tech simply isn't as important of a consideration as military.


The thing about Russia is this, it's tech advantages also benefits tremendously on its military development. Around turn 4 I could manage an unstoppable military machine that is going to win the game for me in one or two turn, while still manage to stay ahead of the tech race. The power of communism is just too much to over come, not to mention spy will keep my opponents honest throughout. My point is this: Russia just have too many options and weapons.


During test we had a debate about Russia power... For me Russia is clearly the best Civ with both expansions. They can't be stoped in a 1 vs 1. You can only handle them 2 vs 1, meaning the target of Russia Military power haves like no chance to win, except if it's a particular Civ that can still get some bonus despite all the waisted actions to survive.
Communism is not the best Gov in W&W, but starting with it is clearly a huge advantage if you use it well in a military rush.
As you said, even if you stop Russia military rush, they still get huge advantage because they could have stealed a lot of tech knowing military wasn't possible and this gives them a possibility to win by tech or to finaly succed with military because of getting higher units level faster.
Personaly, I will avoid Russia in 1 vs 1, maybe even in 3 players game, but in a 4 players game, there are enough possiblities to handle them.
 
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RoyalRook
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Itchi wrote:

During test we had a debate about Russia power... For me Russia is clearly the best Civ with both expansions. They can't be stoped in a 1 vs 1. You can only handle them 2 vs 1, meaning the target of Russia Military power haves like no chance to win, except if it's a particular Civ that can still get some bonus despite all the waisted actions to survive.
Communism is not the best Gov in W&W, but starting with it is clearly a huge advantage if you use it well in a military rush.
As you said, even if you stop Russia military rush, they still get huge advantage because they could have stealed a lot of tech knowing military wasn't possible and this gives them a possibility to win by tech or to finaly succed with military because of getting higher units level faster.
Personaly, I will avoid Russia in 1 vs 1, maybe even in 3 players game, but in a 4 players game, there are enough possiblities to handle them.


Perfect, even during the play test sessions, Russia proven itself as an unstoppable force. I think that's enough reasons for people to ask for a nerf. Basically, it requires 3 players in a 4 player match to even things out with Russia. I feel the same way. I actively stay away from picking Arab and Russia, because they are almost impossible to beat, especially Russia. Granted I love military victory path, but tech victory is often 1 more or 2 turns behind.
 
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royalrook2013 wrote:
Itchi wrote:

During test we had a debate about Russia power... For me Russia is clearly the best Civ with both expansions. They can't be stoped in a 1 vs 1. You can only handle them 2 vs 1, meaning the target of Russia Military power haves like no chance to win, except if it's a particular Civ that can still get some bonus despite all the waisted actions to survive.
Communism is not the best Gov in W&W, but starting with it is clearly a huge advantage if you use it well in a military rush.
As you said, even if you stop Russia military rush, they still get huge advantage because they could have stealed a lot of tech knowing military wasn't possible and this gives them a possibility to win by tech or to finaly succed with military because of getting higher units level faster.
Personaly, I will avoid Russia in 1 vs 1, maybe even in 3 players game, but in a 4 players game, there are enough possiblities to handle them.


Perfect, even during the play test sessions, Russia proven itself as an unstoppable force. I think that's enough reasons for people to ask for a nerf. Basically, it requires 3 players in a 4 player match to even things out with Russia. I feel the same way. I actively stay away from picking Arab and Russia, because they are almost impossible to beat, especially Russia. Granted I love military victory path, but tech victory is often 1 more or 2 turns behind.


Games are situational, but indeed Russia have an easy military rush start that need a lot of sacrifices to counter. But if you succeded to push them back and avoid them to steal techs, they will be doomed, but it will happen like in 1 game on 5 played ^^.
 
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RoyalRook
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Itchi wrote:

Games are situational, but indeed Russia have an easy military rush start that need a lot of sacrifices to counter. But if you succeded to push them back and avoid them to steal techs, they will be doomed, but it will happen like in 1 game on 5 played ^^.


Absolutely, unless I don't get to find a spy, you are not stopping me. The communism resource ability always tip the balance back to me. I don't care about CB when I get to play 2 free cards on my victim. Russia's military aspect is utterly broken, especially in WaW with newly buffed communism. Funny how the best civ in the game got a even bigger buff in the newest expansion, don't you think? Nerf is in order, I say. Please ask FF to consider it in the upcoming FAQ (they are working on it right?).
 
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royalrook2013 wrote:
Itchi wrote:

Games are situational, but indeed Russia have an easy military rush start that need a lot of sacrifices to counter. But if you succeded to push them back and avoid them to steal techs, they will be doomed, but it will happen like in 1 game on 5 played ^^.


Absolutely, unless I don't get to find a spy, you are not stopping me. The communism resource ability always tip the balance back to me. I don't care about CB when I get to play 2 free cards on my victim. Russia's military aspect is utterly broken, especially in WaW with newly buffed communism. Funny how the best civ in the game got a even bigger buff in the newest expansion, don't you think? Nerf is in order, I say. Please ask FF to consider it in the upcoming FAQ (they are working on it right?).


It will hard to nerf, that's the problem ^^. Arabs was easier to nerf, just a single change in their ability. Russia ability can't be nerfed, you can remove them the +1 stecking limit but that's not the reason of their power. Their stealing tech ability can't be nerfed. So only communism can be nerfed and I don't think FFG want to do so, I think communism is nice as it is. Finaly the only problem and the only solution I see, is to change Russia Communism starting tech for another one.
 
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RoyalRook
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Itchi wrote:

It will hard to nerf, that's the problem ^^. Arabs was easier to nerf, just a single change in their ability. Russia ability can't be nerfed, you can remove them the +1 stecking limit but that's not the reason of their power. Their stealing tech ability can't be nerfed. So only communism can be nerfed and I don't think FFG want to do so, I think communism is nice as it is. Finaly the only problem and the only solution I see, is to change Russia Communism starting tech for another one.


I agree with you 100%, and it's so nice to discuss this with someone who understands. Thank you so much for your time. My humble nerf options are listed as follow:

1. Frankly, I don't think Russia needs a starting tech. They should be the only civ that don't start with any techs. And I don't think they would miss it, amazing starting tile with an extra army figure is as powerful as early game can get. Russia get to steal, I wouldn't miss it a bit in a fair game as the Russian player.

Or;

2. Only Russia Scout can steal Techs, Russia start with another Tech besides communism.

Or;

3. Everything as it is, Russia start with another Tech besides communism.

Or;

4. Only Scout can steal Techs. Russia start with another Tech besides communism. But still retain communism as its starting gov.

 
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Option 3 is to give them an additional tech? I guess you wanted to say "instead" and not "besides", or is my english too bad to understand you? blush
 
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RoyalRook
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CJWF wrote:
Option 3 is to give them an additional tech? I guess you wanted to say "instead" and not "besides", or is my english too bad to understand you? blush

Oh no ur English is perfect, instead works, too. Do u think Russia needs to be nerfed, or it's fine as it is?
 
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I don't think Russia's starting tile is all that amazing. No resources, little trade and exploration is difficult sometimes.

Also, this game includes China, Greece, Spain, Arabia, Germany, Aztecs, Japan - all of these CIVs and more can be cranked pretty hard and seem invincible if played right and you get a couple lucky draws.

Russia seems right at home as it is.
 
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jhoratio wrote:
I don't think Russia's starting tile is all that amazing. No resources, little trade and exploration is difficult sometimes.

Also, this game includes China, Greece, Spain, Arabia, Germany, Aztecs, Japan - all of these CIVs and more can be cranked pretty hard and seem invincible if played right and you get a couple lucky draws.

Russia seems right at home as it is.

No resources? It has wheat and iron. Most starting tiles have three resources, Russia has two. They also have desert and water tiles available, so I'm not sure what you mean by "little trade".

Yes, all civ's are subject to luck. That does not ultimately equalize them. When asymmetrical assets are weighed against each other, there's an assumption of "all things being equal".
 
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royalrook2013 wrote:
Itchi wrote:

It will hard to nerf, that's the problem ^^. Arabs was easier to nerf, just a single change in their ability. Russia ability can't be nerfed, you can remove them the +1 stecking limit but that's not the reason of their power. Their stealing tech ability can't be nerfed. So only communism can be nerfed and I don't think FFG want to do so, I think communism is nice as it is. Finaly the only problem and the only solution I see, is to change Russia Communism starting tech for another one.


I agree with you 100%, and it's so nice to discuss this with someone who understands. Thank you so much for your time. My humble nerf options are listed as follow:

1. Frankly, I don't think Russia needs a starting tech. They should be the only civ that don't start with any techs. And I don't think they would miss it, amazing starting tile with an extra army figure is as powerful as early game can get. Russia get to steal, I wouldn't miss it a bit in a fair game as the Russian player.

Or;

2. Only Russia Scout can steal Techs, Russia start with another Tech besides communism.

Or;

3. Everything as it is, Russia start with another Tech besides communism.

Or;

4. Only Scout can steal Techs. Russia start with another Tech besides communism. But still retain communism as its starting gov.



Well, Russia doesn't Communism any more than China needs it, or any more than America needs Democracy or England needs Monarchy (and so on).

As for the tech stealing, just get rid of it and instead give it an ability like "any resource can be spent as if it were a spy".
 
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steveg700 wrote:
jhoratio wrote:
I don't think Russia's starting tile is all that amazing. No resources, little trade and exploration is difficult sometimes.

Also, this game includes China, Greece, Spain, Arabia, Germany, Aztecs, Japan - all of these CIVs and more can be cranked pretty hard and seem invincible if played right and you get a couple lucky draws.

Russia seems right at home as it is.

No resources? It has wheat and iron. Most starting tiles have three resources, Russia has two. They also have desert and water tiles available, so I'm not sure what you mean by "little trade".

Yes, all civ's are subject to luck. That does not ultimately equalize them. When asymmetrical assets are weighed against each other, there's an assumption of "all things being equal".


Yea, I don't really care much for his opinion these days. I think he just like to troll, or simply doesn't understand how powerful Russia's early game can be. But, I think between you and me we can agree that Russia is well set from the get go. And do you know how you can tell that Russia got an amazing starting tile? Every top Russia player go for agriculture on turn 2 or so, you can go check and that's as clear as it gets.

steveg700 wrote:


Well, Russia doesn't Communism any more than China needs it, or any more than America needs Democracy or England needs Monarchy (and so on).

As for the tech stealing, just get rid of it and instead give it an ability like "any resource can be spent as if it were a spy".


But that would buff Russia even more. "Any resource can be spent as if it were a spy" equal to build-in super charged Kremlin which normally generate a spy per 2 resources.

P.S. I have a thread on Kremlin/Internet, please have a post or two on that topic as well.
 
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royalrook2013 wrote:
steveg700 wrote:
jhoratio wrote:
I don't think Russia's starting tile is all that amazing. No resources, little trade and exploration is difficult sometimes.

Also, this game includes China, Greece, Spain, Arabia, Germany, Aztecs, Japan - all of these CIVs and more can be cranked pretty hard and seem invincible if played right and you get a couple lucky draws.

Russia seems right at home as it is.

No resources? It has wheat and iron. Most starting tiles have three resources, Russia has two. They also have desert and water tiles available, so I'm not sure what you mean by "little trade".

Yes, all civ's are subject to luck. That does not ultimately equalize them. When asymmetrical assets are weighed against each other, there's an assumption of "all things being equal".


Yea, I don't really care much for his opinion these days. I think he just like to troll, or simply doesn't understand how powerful Russia's early game can be. But, I think between you and me we can agree that Russia is well set from the get go. And do you know how you can tell that Russia got an amazing starting tile? Every top Russia player go for agriculture on turn 2 or so, you can go check and that's as clear as it gets.

steveg700 wrote:


Well, Russia doesn't Communism any more than China needs it, or any more than America needs Democracy or England needs Monarchy (and so on).

As for the tech stealing, just get rid of it and instead give it an ability like "any resource can be spent as if it were a spy".


But that would buff Russia even more. "Any resource can be spent as if it were a spy" equal to build-in super charged Kremlin which normally generate a spy per 2 resources.

P.S. I have a thread on Kremlin/Internet, please have a post or two on that topic as well.


Just spitballing, but having extra options for playing a spy is more balanced than the tech-stealing. The problem is, spies (and uranium) come entirely from huts and villages, which limits the ability to tailor them to specific civ's. It would have been better to have a pool of them as well, and certain techs or culture cards (or civ's) can net you one.
 
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