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Subject: Gameplay concerns rss

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Christian K
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Hey all.

After reading a bit on this forum, i have become very excited about this game. However, it has also given me some concerns.

The models you make seem to be very large. Is it true that they take up more than one space on the map but that they should only take up one. Are there rules for this? Can the enemy move to the spaces that you fill physically but where you are not "present". How vig of a problem has this been in your games.

I love fancy stuff in my games, but i do not consider it fancy if it hinders the game experience.

Can anyone help me relax (or confirm my concerns and make me not pick this up)?
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Jake Rose
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The 'wish they were real 3D' OGREs do indeed take up more than on space. You are supposed to just count the front space as the hex the unit occupies. That rule assumes each takes two hexes. The fact is some of the bigger ones take up more room.

In a game using just OGRE rules on the crater map it isn't too bad as stacking of units is not allowed so the most enemy units you have trying to move onto the hex(s) filled by the physical '3D' OGRE are one per hex. In games where stacking is allowed it is a little more of a pain.

The game is fun. The multi-hex OGREs doe detract from that a tiny bit, but not too much. The 'pocket version' which is supposed to be released this coming summer (I think) will not suffer from the issue.

Jake

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David Rock

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Muemmelmann wrote:

The models you make seem to be very large. Is it true that they take up more than one space on the map but that they should only take up one. Are there rules for this? Can the enemy move to the spaces that you fill physically but where you are not "present". How vig of a problem has this been in your games.


Yes, it's true. The Ogre 3D models are big. No, it's not a big deal. They are only "in" the front hex, so a unit can be in the hex underneath the back of the Ogre "safely" (at least as safe as it can be sitting next to an Ogre. :-)

You won't notice the problem that much with a Mark III or smaller Ogre. The Mark III takes up about 1 1/2 hexes, and can reasonably straddle one hex, about the same as a Missile Crawler does. The larger Ogres, Mark IV and up, definitely take up two hexes.

Just remember, facing does not matter in Ogre. What I do is simply rotate the model so the back is in an unoccupied hex, or inbetween hexes.

The reason they are so big is because the Ogres are scaled to the rest of the counters. If it really bothers you, or you have a lot of Ogres on the map at once, you can use the smaller Mark I or Mark II models that do fit in only one hex.
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Geoff Speare
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I would have liked single hex size, out of scale counters for all the different Ogres. It seems to me that the times it is going to matter are when there are lots and lots of Ogres on the map, at which point distinguishing between them is important.
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David Rock

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galfridus wrote:
I would have liked single hex size, out of scale counters for all the different Ogres. It seems to me that the times it is going to matter are when there are lots and lots of Ogres on the map, at which point distinguishing between them is important.

You aren't alone in wanting 1-Hex Ogre counters. The best solution I've found for that so far is to use the Ogre Classic Counters:
http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG37-5011
This is a print your own set, but there may be some left over that will be sold at W23 in the near future.

In practice, it's not really a problem that is going to happen a lot. Even with scenarios with a half-dozen Ogres in close proximity, it's still generally manageable, especially if you throw in the Flat Ogre counters.
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Andrew Walters
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It's a little awkward, but worth it to have nice big Ogres that are in scale with everything else.

The one time I have to pay attention is when units *behind* the Ogre want to shoot at it: remember to count distance to the front hex. Other than that it all seems very natural.

The truth is that Ogres are such a big deal that their location is *really* important and you simply don't forget it. In the second half of the game you're keeping careful track of the range to the CP, such that you don't normally have to count, you just know. You could pick the Ogre up off the map and everyone would still remember that it was two hexes south of that own hex there, because A) it's important, B) it just blasted that hex with it's secondaries, and C) everyone is talking about whether should/will overrun that hex next turn or go around it.

Come to think of it, you could play this game without Ogre counters at all. But that would be less fun.

So, yeah, game pieces that take up two spaces are weird, but when you try it you'll see it's fine.
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Russ Williams
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andreww wrote:

It's a little awkward, but worth it to have nice big Ogres that are in scale with everything else.

But they're not in scale with the map itself. Nor with the infantry. Only perhaps with other Ogres and tanks. So it's kind of a bogus sense of being in scale with everything else...
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Christian K
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Ok you have calmed me a bit i am still on the fence about it. I must admit the whole thing seems pretty cool. I get the feeling here that they do take up at most 2 spaces (i got the feeling in another thread that some took up 5-6 spaces which would be a bit of a nightmare to me).
 
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Andrew Walters
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Most wargames have differing scales or maps and counters or figures. That's a given. Even the Ogre would be a tiny dot if it were in scale with the map, or the map would be the size of a parking lot. There are a very few skirmish games that have figure scale equal to ground scale, and there even a 15mm soldier's rifle can shoot all the way across the room, to say nothing of bigger guns - range is infinite.
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Scott Everts
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russ wrote:
andreww wrote:

It's a little awkward, but worth it to have nice big Ogres that are in scale with everything else.

But they're not in scale with the map itself. Nor with the infantry. Only perhaps with other Ogres and tanks. So it's kind of a bogus sense of being in scale with everything else...

Agreed. They also aren't in scale with the buildings. And the buildings aren't in scale with each other as far as I can tell. The reactor should be far bigger I would think. So we have at least 4 different scales involved.

Granted, the big Ogres do look cool but I'm planning to make 1 hex versions strictly for big battles to swap out the 3D ones when needed. I'm very happy they did release the flat ones though what would be really handy is flat ones of all the Ogres in correct colors and ID's. So you could swap them in and out. Maybe they'd be willing to release high res overhead images of each color/model type so we can do this ourselves. I have the 75dpi image of the red Ogres they released ages ago but would love a 300dpi version.
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Jeff Johnson
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How often in actual games of Ogre or G.E.V. do you actually end up with conventional units in all six hexes surrounding an Ogre?

How hard would it be to stack a conventional unit on top of the back section of the Ogre or else to place it underneath the treads...?

Assuming that is a terrible burden... how long can you typically expect that unit to survive?
 
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Jake Rose
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Jeffr0 wrote:
How often in actual games of Ogre or G.E.V. do you actually end up with conventional units in all six hexes surrounding an Ogre?

How hard would it be to stack a conventional unit on top of the back section of the Ogre or else to place it underneath the treads...?

Assuming that is a terrible burden... how long can you typically expect that unit to survive?


Actually, in the basic OGRE scenarios, moving onto the hex occupied by the OGRE's back end can make a lot of sense. Generally it allows you to get more units into range, and the OGRE generally needs to keep moving forward to get to the CP before it runs out of tracks and weapons. As the space around the OGRE gets crowded, the fact it takes up more than one hex is kind of a pain.
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Geoff Speare
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Conventional units around an Ogre seem less of an issue, you can put the Ogre on top of them. Ogres next to each other is more of an issue. I agree this is a rare case.

Anyway, I'm just sharpie-ing and constructing my Ogres now, lots of time before this is even a potential issue!
 
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Andrew Walters
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I have many, many times in multiplayer games at conventions seen the four to eight Ogre smashup: missile racks emptying, secondary batteries disappearing, tread points falling calamitously, and the conventional units on the perimeter just evaporating. I have never heard anyone complain about the awkwardness, not with counters, not with minis (and with minis the situation is even trickier).

Ideally we'd all have twenty foot wide tables for giant maps, but we can't. The big maps I use for conventions have two inch hexes, and that produces a map about as big as you can use at a convention, and I cannot use those maps at home, and the Ogres still don't fit in one hex.

So you have multi-hex Ogres or tiny Ogres, choose as you like. There were good suggestions above. My advice would be to take this graphic...

...and rescale each and print at 1.5". Paste it to whatever you like to use for counters and you're set - 1 hex Ogres.
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Jeff Johnson
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jakecarol wrote:
Actually, in the basic OGRE scenarios, moving onto the hex occupied by the OGRE's back end can make a lot of sense.


But most of the time there will be one empty hex where the Ogre's back section can be placed without disrupting or covering up any other units.

There is only an overlap if all six hexes next to the Ogre are full-- which really only happens if the Ogre player is a very poor tactician. (Only a novice dives right into the center of the defense!)
 
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Mike Malley
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I wonder how much the game would change if the Mk IIIs and up actually took up the space they take up.
 
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Andrew Walters
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Quote:
if the Mk IIIs and up actually took up the space they take up


I got confused by that. Don't they take up the space they take up? I guess I got lost at "actually".

If Mark IIIs were to scale with the map they would be a dot. A Mark III is, iirc, 20-ish meters long, and a 1.5" hex is 1500 meters. So the Mark III would be a dot 1/50th inch long. That would leave a lot of room on the counter for weapon stats, at least.

The Mark III *is* in scale with the other Ogres and the art on the flat counters.

What other scale could we want the Mark III to be?

At 28mm or 1/60th scale they'd be over a foot long. That's almost impossible to play with. *Almost*, I have ideas...

Life size is to big to make out of chipboard, then we'd have to go plastics after all. Somewhere in China there's an injection molding machine that could do it, I'll bet. That would make our game storage problems even *worse*.
 
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Mike Malley
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I meant two hexes.
 
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Andrew Walters
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The Mark III is 2.75" long, the hexes are 1.5", so it pretty much is two hexes. The VI and the Doppelsoldner are over two hexes...
 
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Mike Malley
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Right. And I'm wondering how much playing the Ogres as occupying 2 spaces (3 for the Doppelsoldner, as the Mk 6 can *just* fit in 2 as far as length) - as opposed to just the front hex - would affect things. It's obvious I'm not using the right words to get my point across, but I'm not sure how to word it differently.
 
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Todd Pytel
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You're asking how much it would matter if you treated the Ogres in game as occupying all hexes their models physically occupy.

It would make a pretty big difference.
 
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Andrew Walters
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So the question is "what if you could fire at, or the Ogre could count movement from, either of the hexes that the model resides in?"

Yeah, that changes a *lot*. I would make it easier for units tailing the Ogre to stay in range. It would make an Ogre changing direction much faster. You'd also need turning rules, so weasels don't whip their tail around on their final hex of movement so they can fire from one hex closer.

Every hex is important in Ogre, I think this would take a lot of re-engineering and the gain is pretty small.
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Mike Malley
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It didn't even occur to me to not have movement count just from the front hex. Luckily I don't know anyone who would consider a tail whip a valid move. I was solely thinking of being able fire at any of the hexes the Ogre occupied.
 
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Andrew Walters
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If the only rules change is that you may now count attack range to the rear hex that's still a nice benefit to the defenders. Quite commonly some infantry get an early shot at the Ogre but then it distances them and they can't catch it until it gets to the CP. Less frequently but more than rarely the same will happen to a MSL. Most seriously if an Ogre is trying to run the gauntlet of HWZ fire instead of diverting to take it out this will likely give the HWZ an extra shot.

Ogre is awesome because it is dramatic - the survival of the CP often comes down to the last couple of attacks on the Ogre. Play a game or two of Ogre and count the number of shots that you *could* have made if you could fire at that rear hex, and as it barrels down on the CP with a handful of tread units left ask yourself how badly you'd love to take those attacks.

So I think this variant would require that the defense give up an armor unit or thereabouts, probably more in the Advanced scenario with the Mark V.
 
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Mike Malley
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That makes sense. I have some friends who having to ignore the back half of an Ogre would bug them. Not that they wouldn't get over it, but if I can come up with something to make the transition even smoother, so much the better. It's not like we're going to be playing it this way at conventions.
 
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