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Subject: decreasing luck factor rss

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fredrick berlik
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In many of the games of memoir that I have played I have discovered a big percentage of luck in the die rolls. Now I understand that after enough games it will probably even out, but many times good or bad rolls come at the wrong time. For instance in the first scenario the first four rolls that my opponent rolled against the unit with the sandbags resulted in four hits. Now even if later in the game he will then roll four misses still my main defense is gone.

So I have tried to create a variant to limit the luck factor of the dice. Every grenade and star rolled deals half of a damage to the defending unit. There are a few exceptions (basically when a star will be a hit). I haven't tried it out for myself yet, but I wanted to hear what you guys think about this idea first.

Thanks in advance.
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mark selleck
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Personally I like how the game is. The dice are a factor of luck but also represent abstractly your troops fighting (something that is out of your control) as the commander it is up to you to give them the best chance in combat and up to them to perform. Your decisions as a commander can give them more dice in combat and possibly make more sides of the dice hits (this i my opinion is decreasing the luck factor). Even though you may put the odds in your favour they may roll (perform) badly but on the flip side they may perform well against all odds. There are example all through history where these are both the case.

The rules for the game are easy to master but not until they are nailed down I have found then you are free to focus 100% on the tactical and strategic option, which IMO are more complex than the rules of the game itself.
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mark selleck
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Darth Bane wrote:
, but many times good or bad rolls come at the wrong time.


That is war for you.

Darth Bane wrote:
For instance in the first scenario the first four rolls that my opponent rolled against the unit with the sandbags resulted in four hits. Now even if later in the game he will then roll four misses still my main defense is gone.


Something to keep in mind is that historically this battle was over in 10 minutes, its not know as the "coup de main" for nothing



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Kevin Whitmore
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Darth Bane wrote:
In many of the games of memoir that I have played I have discovered a big percentage of luck in the die rolls. Now I understand that after enough games it will probably even out, but many times good or bad rolls come at the wrong time. For instance in the first scenario the first four rolls that my opponent rolled against the unit with the sandbags resulted in four hits. Now even if later in the game he will then roll four misses still my main defense is gone.

So I have tried to create a variant to limit the luck factor of the dice. Every grenade and star rolled deals half of a damage to the defending unit. There are a few exceptions (basically when a star will be a hit). I haven't tried it out for myself yet, but I wanted to hear what you guys think about this idea first.

Thanks in advance.


Memoir 44 is definitely a game with swings of luck. And you should feel free to try tweaking it so that you enjoy it. If nothing else, it provides you with nice game materials to design your own version with.

I suspect most folks who frequent this forum will tell you they like the game as-is. The people who like more control in their combat games are likely not looking too much at Memoir 44. I like Memoir 44 for the spectacle and large sweep of action that it gives. For me, the swings of luck are acceptable. But I can understand how a player might wish for more control.

If I were to try adjusting this system to be more of a controlled game, I probably would shy away from changing the dice resolutions. I grew up with the old AH games where A Elim and D Elim were possible outcomes on a single roll. So Memoir's hit or miss results already seem tempered from the wild swings I knew from before.

Instead, I would consider whether adjusting the card mechanism might give more control. Perhaps allowing players to both draw 5 extra cards, or something like that. For me, my frustration doesn't come from the dice results, but from being unable to fire back at a unit that just fired at me.

Ultimately, I am at peace with what the game is. But you sound like you want to get a bit more out of it. So I wish you luck, and invite you to post the details of your variant once you work it out.

Good luck,

Kevin
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Jaime D.
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Hello,

I'm not sure for how long you've been playing Memoir. I discovered the game 2 years ago and at some point my thoughts were like yours.

However, more seasoned players showed me that, even though the dice rolling is an important part of the game, there are some others that diminish the luck factor a lot:

- Hand management: If you master this part of the game, the luck factor it's reduced somehow. Check with your cards if you can sustain in the time an assault or consider minor raids, etc.
- Control your position, control the terrain : try to get advantage of the terrain. This is, in my opinion, by far the most decisive part of the battles. If you master how and when your troops should enter or not a certain type of terrain, you may have a lot of chances of defeating your oponent, regardless the luck in your dice.
- One rule of thumb: the best defense is to stay out of range. Let your enemies getting closer while you capitalize on the terrain defences.

Regards
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Dave C.
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Kevin_Whitmore wrote:


Instead, I would consider whether adjusting the card mechanism might give more control. Perhaps allowing players to both draw 5 extra cards, or something like that. For me, my frustration doesn't come from the dice results, but from being unable to fire back at a unit that just fired at me.


Try this:

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1019552/yet-another-but-very...

I like the game as is, too but sometimes it is fun to tweak it and try new things.
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George Husted
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I always try to (a) cut off retreat of my opponent, (b) target weakened units so that hits eliminate them, and (c) have a follow up attack available.

Even with that, sometimes, the unit survives against the odds, or inflicts horrendous casualties on the attacker. It happens.

Bastogne. Nuts.
Battle of Pasir Panjang
The Lost Battalion.
Rorke's Drift
Siege Of Vienna (1529)
The Last Stand of the Swiss Guard (May 6, 1527)
Thermopylae. (Pyrrhic)

meeple
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fredrick berlik
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Kevin_Whitmore wrote:
Darth Bane wrote:
In many of the games of memoir that I have played I have discovered a big percentage of luck in the die rolls. Now I understand that after enough games it will probably even out, but many times good or bad rolls come at the wrong time. For instance in the first scenario the first four rolls that my opponent rolled against the unit with the sandbags resulted in four hits. Now even if later in the game he will then roll four misses still my main defense is gone.

So I have tried to create a variant to limit the luck factor of the dice. Every grenade and star rolled deals half of a damage to the defending unit. There are a few exceptions (basically when a star will be a hit). I haven't tried it out for myself yet, but I wanted to hear what you guys think about this idea first.

Thanks in advance.


Memoir 44 is definitely a game with swings of luck. And you should feel free to try tweaking it so that you enjoy it. If nothing else, it provides you with nice game materials to design your own version with.

I suspect most folks who frequent this forum will tell you they like the game as-is. The people who like more control in their combat games are likely not looking too much at Memoir 44. I like Memoir 44 for the spectacle and large sweep of action that it gives. For me, the swings of luck are acceptable. But I can understand how a player might wish for more control.

If I were to try adjusting this system to be more of a controlled game, I probably would shy away from changing the dice resolutions. I grew up with the old AH games where A Elim and D Elim were possible outcomes on a single roll. So Memoir's hit or miss results already seem tempered from the wild swings I knew from before.

Instead, I would consider whether adjusting the card mechanism might give more control. Perhaps allowing players to both draw 5 extra cards, or something like that. For me, my frustration doesn't come from the dice results, but from being unable to fire back at a unit that just fired at me.

Ultimately, I am at peace with what the game is. But you sound like you want to get a bit more out of it. So I wish you luck, and invite you to post the details of your variant once you work it out.

Good luck,

Kevin


Thanks for responding kevin.

I do really like memoir, it is those few games that are out of my control that bother me. As far as changing the cards I find that more often than not that it is the way I use the cards that seem like bad luck rather than actually getting bad cards. For example I recently played a scenario (Mantanikau River) where I had almost every card on my left flank (as the allies) only having two units to order with each turn. I used what few cards that I had in a different flank to move my more units onto my left flank leaving my middle flank opened. I then goaded my opponent to attack that flank by leaving units in that section unprotected. Had he gone down the middle he would have won by a lot, but instead I won. Now sometimes when I would not think of such a strategy I would blame it on the cards. Therefore I would rather not change the card luck factor.
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Michael
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I've considered as a very minor variant, allowing each player to choose and discard one card at the end of their turn and draw a card to replace it.

I think many of us have had games where all we draw are recon cards, and our opponents keep getting "Direct From HQ."

The dice rolls in Memoir 44' can go to extremes one way or the other, but the card control how many dice you get to roll.
 
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Mark Papenfuss
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"Your results are back: it's negative"......um, is that a bad thing?
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Coldwarrior1984 wrote:
I always try to (a) cut off retreat of my opponent, (b) target weakened units so that hits eliminate them, and (c) have a follow up attack available.

Even with that, sometimes, the unit survives against the odds, or inflicts horrendous casualties on the attacker. It happens.

Bastogne. Nuts.
Battle of Pasir Panjang
The Lost Battalion.
Rorke's Drift
Siege Of Vienna (1529)
The Last Stand of the Swiss Guard (May 6, 1527)
Thermopylae. (Pyrrhic)

meeple


Although not without controversy amongst the revisionists, also consider these:
Battle of Bannockburn
Agincourt
Battle of Britain (WWII)
and my personal favorite, the Battle of Trenton
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Matt Jolly
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Almilcar wrote:
Hello,

I'm not sure for how long you've been playing Memoir. I discovered the game 2 years ago and at some point my thoughts were like yours.

However, more seasoned players showed me that, even though the dice rolling is an important part of the game, there are some others that diminish the luck factor a lot:

- Hand management: If you master this part of the game, the luck factor it's reduced somehow. Check with your cards if you can sustain in the time an assault or consider minor raids, etc.
- Control your position, control the terrain : try to get advantage of the terrain. This is, in my opinion, by far the most decisive part of the battles. If you master how and when your troops should enter or not a certain type of terrain, you may have a lot of chances of defeating your oponent, regardless the luck in your dice.
- One rule of thumb: the best defense is to stay out of range. Let your enemies getting closer while you capitalize on the terrain defences.

Regards


All this!

But I think this game distils to an even simpler basic plan. Roll more dice than your opponent. Now this means that having better cards in your hand helps, but isn't automatically good. Ordering one unit that rolls three dice rather than 2 that roll one is a better deal for you. Moving infantry is worth more than moving armour, and anyone relying on artillery for their game is relying on more luck than I like.

My exception to the general point about artillery is when your opponent has lots of troops on his baseline and a retreat will kill figures. Even a single die roll under these conditions has a 50% chance of taking a figure so is generally worth while.

I have a house rule too which says that grenade symbols only hit at range 1 making close combat more deadly and artificially distancing artillery; now it is only vulnerable at range 1. It changes slightly the relative balance between manoeuvre and fire, which I like but isn't everyone's cup of tea.

But my experience is that luck plays a smaller part in this game than in (say) Paths of Glory where combat is rarer (so extremes of luck matter more) and the die rolls harder to manage and this is all before the card factor is brought in!

Cheers,

Matt
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Rick Petersen
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What I have done for my games, is to use this variant from Battle Cry:

http://www.grognard.com/variants1/batcry6.txt

I had to make some adjustments to fit M44, but it was easy to do.
 
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Julien Regnard
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Did you try to roll twice the number of dice, and divide the result by 2? (both players agree to round up or down the result).
Doing so significantly reduces the probability of extreme results (both very bad and very good rolls), but they can still occur.
 
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