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Subject: Can the allies come back from this? rss

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Chris Buhl
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On turn 2 of the 1942 scenario, if the Japanese end up with 2 WiE events that drop the level a total of 5, is it realistic for the allies to come back from that? It seems to me that is a devastating opening hand for the scenario, and even if we play out the campaign it seems pretty crushing. I haven't played enough to know for sure, but I'm wondering if the allies should just surrender and start again, to have a somewhat competitive game (it's two pretty new to the game players).

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Chris
 
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Mark Herman
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fatgreta wrote:
On turn 2 of the 1942 scenario, if the Japanese end up with 2 WiE events that drop the level a total of 5, is it realistic for the allies to come back from that? It seems to me that is a devastating opening hand for the scenario, and even if we play out the campaign it seems pretty crushing. I haven't played enough to know for sure, but I'm wondering if the allies should just surrender and start again, to have a somewhat competitive game (it's two pretty new to the game players).

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Chris


My question is what did the Japanese give up to wait on the Germans to impact Allied fortunes. Did the DEI surrender? How many of the 14 resource hexes were taken?

Quite frankly the WiE does not in it of itself move the JP toward a PW victory, so once the Allied reinforcements are delayed the main impact is the majority of the Army units flow to Europe for the time being. The trade space is the Japanese gave up on average 10 activations to make that happen.

The WiE has no impact besides delay on USN and Commonwealth assets. The main loss will be any Army air diverted to Europe. What I usually find is the Central Pacific or the Southern region is open to penetration. Think plan Orange, fill a hole in the Japanese perimeter with a strong Commonwealth ground unit and make the Japanese spend time finishing off the DEI and the Philippines while you threaten the Marshall Islands and build up in New Guinea. My experience with the JP is that using two cards for events and no FoQ really hampers the JP ability to get off to a solid start and in the long term they lose.

In fact I have never lost a game with the Allies due to this situation, but there are too many variables to give a better answer. Remember the WiE cuts both ways as it's not a permanent condition and depending on the card draws you can quickly find the Allies winning in Europe.

I hope that helps,

Mark
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Chris Buhl
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Well, it certainly helps allied morale! Thanks, I haven't played these games enough to think about trade offs like activation for events, that was helpful feedback.
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Pawel Koziorowski
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I was faced with similar situation a few times. I've just wasted my time playing to the end. If WiE level is 3 or 4 I would never continue the game.
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Mark Herman
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pawelk wrote:
I was faced with similar situation a few times. I've just wasted my time playing to the end. If WiE level is 3 or 4 I would never continue the game.


Why? There is always counter play. Folks usually focus on the circumstances of the opening but neglect to understand that a poor WiE situation relieves the Allies on PoW requirements allowing them to concentrate on an alternate strategy. Also as the game progresses the Allied WiE cards become more potent and the obverse impacts the JP.

This exact situation prevailed in one of the staff games and the Allies won. The key point is an aggressive JP WiE strategy does not lead to victory and relies on favorable die rolls.

The issue as always is knowing how to adjust one's strategy.
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Chris Buhl
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Well, we will continue. Almost immediately after I posted the question and read Mark's response, my friend (playing Japanese) started saying "Yeah, I can see what he means..." He used a 3 and a 2 op wie card, so that was minimum 7 activations. There are a lot of resource hexes Japan needs to capture by turn 5, and after turn 3 the US will have a reasonably strong naval presence on the map. So the chances to make minimally escorted landings in Dutch East Indies and New Guinea ports and resource hexes are diminished.

I'm not claiming that I think I'm winning, it will take a long time before I can stop all of my reinforcements from being delayed. Also, if I don't end up bumping the WiE level up at least 1 by next turn I'll be losing a lot of ASP, and a card draw, along with the 60% chance of diversion and a loss of political will every turn until I get the card...

It is interesting, I'm looking forward to seeing what happens next.
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Mike Welker
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The situation described does seem like one is in the deep end of the pool, but it's then all the more exciting to engage in the tough decision making that is the real beauty of any wargame: the emotional elements that derive from the sense of frustration, stress, hopelessness, and danger inherent in every real life situation that is life and death, social collapse and social flourishing... as Mark writes in his book Wargaming for Leaders, we learn this in a safe environment... the benefit is that we learn from this and are made more capable once it arises in real life, to handle the situation in a manner that is "encoded" by our habits of thinking under the stresses.
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Pawel Koziorowski
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MarkHerman wrote:
pawelk wrote:
I was faced with similar situation a few times. I've just wasted my time playing to the end. If WiE level is 3 or 4 I would never continue the game.


Why? There is always counter play. Folks usually focus on the circumstances of the opening but neglect to understand that a poor WiE situation relieves the Allies on PoW requirements allowing them to concentrate on an alternate strategy. Also as the game progresses the Allied WiE cards become more potent and the obverse impacts the JP.


I was never lucky to draw WiE as an US player and my PW dropped every turn and I was not able to make PoW once or twice and that's it. The only counter play, as I see it, is to wait for WiE card but that is not funny. But yes, I can imagine the pleasure of being at PW 1 and then drawing the WiE card and then win the game, but never happened to me.

If Japanese concentrate on playing WiE instead of conquering DEI or New Guinea or Solomon Islands then it is even harder for US player because he has less possibility for picking easy targets for PoW.
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Mark Herman
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pawelk wrote:
MarkHerman wrote:
pawelk wrote:
I was faced with similar situation a few times. I've just wasted my time playing to the end. If WiE level is 3 or 4 I would never continue the game.


Why? There is always counter play. Folks usually focus on the circumstances of the opening but neglect to understand that a poor WiE situation relieves the Allies on PoW requirements allowing them to concentrate on an alternate strategy. Also as the game progresses the Allied WiE cards become more potent and the obverse impacts the JP.


I was never lucky to draw WiE as an US player and my PW dropped every turn and I was not able to make PoW once or twice and that's it. The only counter play, as I see it, is to wait for WiE card but that is not funny. But yes, I can imagine the pleasure of being at PW 1 and then drawing the WiE card and then win the game, but never happened to me.

If Japanese concentrate on playing WiE instead of conquering DEI or New Guinea or Solomon Islands then it is even harder for US player because he has less possibility for picking easy targets for PoW.


Every game is a unique experience and if you cannot make PoW it is not usually a function of WiE. As I said if the JP can forgo the activations and not pay a penalty it is the PW not the WiE that determines the winner.

Mark
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Jesse LeBreton
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Lurking around and reading comments like these gets me so excited for this game. Come on GMT, get this game reprinted for me!
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Steve C
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Lebatron wrote:
Lurking around and reading comments like these gets me so excited for this game. Come on GMT, get this game reprinted for me!

+1, I want this game!
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Lebatron wrote:
Lurking around and reading comments like these gets me so excited for this game. Come on GMT, get this game reprinted for me!


Thanks but without 500 orders it's unlikely to happen.
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Bob Gibson
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IMO, this particular game is so asymmetrical that neither side should ever give up play early on. Although I've only played it a few times now and still consider myself a newbee at it, I, at least, have witnessed the tremendous shift that occurs, particularly from 1943 on.

I just don't see how the Japanese can be strong in all aspects of the game, which always leaves the door open for the Allies. As Mark stated, although Japan has tipped the scale on WiE events, then they could not have used their cards to acquire more, or all, of the much needed resources. That will cost them later on and allow the Allies, with now more ASP's, to be just that much closer and be within striking distance of Tokyo.

To me, anyway, it's a game where the Japanese player is saying to himself, "Did I do enough early on to prevail in the end", while the Allied player is always feeling the urgency that he needs to do more but that time is running out!
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Francisco Colmenares
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MarkHerman wrote:
Lebatron wrote:
Lurking around and reading comments like these gets me so excited for this game. Come on GMT, get this game reprinted for me!


Thanks but without 500 orders it's unlikely to happen.

Assuming it happens, any thoughts on changing the color scheme of the counters to make it easier to know which counters belong to IJA/IJN - USA/USN for ISR purposes? The current scheme is nice, but it could be made more functional. Thoughts:

IJA - Army units: Could be made of a background shade more of a burnt orange/gold while keeping the current lighter color scheme for IJN units.
Compare current: Dutch Regiments, there should be no color confusion.

IJN - Navy units: Current color including the SNLF brigades (and maybe South Seas? even though its army, it was pretty much attached to the Navy).

US - Army, this is a shade of olive green I've seen on Pacific Fleet which makes it a perfect color for US Army corps units and the Army Air. Not as dark as the USMC ones here so those can still be told apart if USMC keeps its dark olive green.

USN - While the marine corps look really nice in their dark green scheme, functionally speaking they are USN in the game and the marine units and marine air could be made the same shade of USN blue, though on the whole maybe not really required.

Of course these are just suggestions and the current scheme is fine, I was thinking how to make it functionally better while still pleasing to the eye (at least mine anyway)
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Mark Herman
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colmenarez wrote:
MarkHerman wrote:
Lebatron wrote:
Lurking around and reading comments like these gets me so excited for this game. Come on GMT, get this game reprinted for me!


Thanks but without 500 orders it's unlikely to happen.

Assuming it happens, any thoughts on changing the color scheme of the counters to make it easier to know which counters belong to IJA/IJN - USA/USN for ISR purposes? The current scheme is nice, but it could be made more functional. Thoughts:

IJA - Army units: Could be made of a background shade more of a burnt orange/gold while keeping the current lighter color scheme for IJN units.
Compare current: Dutch Regiments, there should be no color confusion.

IJN - Navy units: Current color including the SNLF brigades (and maybe South Seas? even though its army, it was pretty much attached to the Navy).

US - Army, this is a shade of olive green I've seen on Pacific Fleet which makes it a perfect color for US Army corps units and the Army Air. Not as dark as the USMC ones here so those can still be told apart if USMC keeps its dark olive green.

USN - While the marine corps look really nice in their dark green scheme, functionally speaking they are USN in the game and the marine units and marine air could be made the same shade of USN blue, though on the whole maybe not really required.

Of course these are just suggestions and the current scheme is fine, I was thinking how to make it functionally better while still pleasing to the eye (at least mine anyway)


I cannot say what the color scheme for the reprint, if it occurs, will be, but I agree with the way in which you organized the use of color.

Mark
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Jesse LeBreton
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As the designer, I'd think you'd have some say in the matter. Either you'll suggest the change, if you agree with it, or you will not. Working with GMT can't be that complicated where something like this couldn't be easily put on the table.
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Mark Herman
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Lebatron wrote:
As the designer, I'd think you'd have some say in the matter. Either you'll suggest the change, if you agree with it, or you will not. Working with GMT can't be that complicated where something like this couldn't be easily put on the table.


I always have a say, but I trust the judgement of the artists. I have worked with these guys for years, so I let them pick the colors. As far as coordinating the colors along the lines suggested, I will definately make that happen.

Mark
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Jesse LeBreton
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Yes those guys at GMT do create beautiful stuff. However, unless the artists are regular players of EoTS I doubt their judgment as to the best color choices can be as good as actual players who have suggested better choices for usability sake. I'm not trying to whip a dead horse here. All I'm saying is that the GMT artists should consider what actual EoTS players have suggested for color choices. I'm also not saying that the guy above that suggested the new colors has it right, I actually don't know, or could give an informed opinion in it, but it's a good base to start with. Perhaps others have opinions here?

In the end, when it does get reprinted, I just want it to be perfect! Is that to much to ask? lol
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Mark Herman
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Lebatron wrote:
Yes those guys at GMT do create beautiful stuff. However, unless the artists are regular players of EoTS I doubt their judgment as to the best color choices can be as good as actual players who have suggested better choices for usability sake. I'm not trying to whip a dead horse here. All I'm saying is that the GMT artists should consider what actual EoTS players have suggested for color choices. I'm also not saying that the guy above that suggested the new colors has it right, I actually don't know, or could give an informed opinion in it, but it's a good base to start with. Perhaps others have opinions here?

In the end, when it does get reprinted, I just want it to be perfect! Is that to much to ask? lol


I appreciate all the help. Mark Simonitch is a regular EoTS player and has written variant articles. Just trust we'll do the right thing if it ever gets reprinted. Still 310 orders to go.

Mark
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