Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
23 Posts

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Everything Else » Religion, Sex, and Politics

Subject: Interview with Vaclav Smil rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
James Webb Space Telescope in 2018!
United States
Utah
flag msg tools
Avatar
mb
Very interesting interview

This Is the Man Bill Gates Thinks You Absolutely Should Be Reading
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/11/vaclav-smil-wired/


For example,

Let’s talk about manufacturing. You say a country that stops doing mass manufacturing falls apart. Why?

In every society, manufacturing builds the lower middle class. If you give up manufacturing, you end up with haves and have-nots and you get social polarization. The whole lower middle class sinks.

You also say that manufacturing is crucial to innovation.

Most innovation is not done by research institutes and national laboratories. It comes from manufacturing—from companies that want to extend their product reach, improve their costs, increase their returns. What’s very important is in-house research. Innovation usually arises from somebody taking a product already in production and making it better: better glass, better aluminum, a better chip. Innovation always starts with a product.



You claim Apple could assemble the iPhone in the US and still make a huge profit.

It’s no secret! Apple has tremendous profit margins. They could easily do everything at home. The iPhone isn’t manufactured in China—it’s assembled in China from parts made in the US, Germany, Japan, Malaysia, South Korea, and so on. The cost there isn’t labor. But laborers must be sufficiently dedicated and skilled to sit on their ass for eight hours and solder little pieces together so they fit perfectly.

But Apple is supposed to be a giant innovator.

Apple! Boy, what a story. No taxes paid, everything made abroad—yet everyone worships them. This new iPhone, there’s nothing new in it. Just a golden color. What the hell, right? When people start playing with color, you know they’re played out.
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Germany
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
I agree in general, but innovation certainly doesn't "always start with a product".
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Boaty McBoatface
England
County of Essex
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Nit sure that manufacturing leads to less haves and have nots, it seems to be that the industrial revolution added to that problem, it is service industries that crate (and nurtures the middle classes). It is true that manufacturing can be used (by a few) to raise themselves by innovation, but it still needs the have nots to work in it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Stein
msg tools
Simon Mueller wrote:
I agree in general, but innovation certainly doesn't "always start with a product".


Innovation is distinct from invention.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Xander Fulton
United States
Astoria
Oregon
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
galad2003 wrote:
For the most part I agree with this guy. The US economy would benefit greatly if we brought more manufacturing back to this country. Stop giving tax breaks to countries that move their operations over seas.

It is also better for the environment as western countries have laws where as China is pretty lax.


Agreed completely.

One of the reasons that 'outsourcing' IS so cheap is that third-world operations externalize much of the true cost of doing business onto their local populations, which have little say in the matter, while their governments reap the rewards.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Boaty McBoatface
England
County of Essex
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
XanderF wrote:
galad2003 wrote:
For the most part I agree with this guy. The US economy would benefit greatly if we brought more manufacturing back to this country. Stop giving tax breaks to countries that move their operations over seas.

It is also better for the environment as western countries have laws where as China is pretty lax.


Agreed completely.

One of the reasons that 'outsourcing' IS so cheap is that third-world operations externalize much of the true cost of doing business onto their local populations, which have little say in the matter, while their governments reap the rewards.


Completely disagree.


Low wages and poor working practices are why companies outsource, not tax breaks.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon M
United Kingdom
Hitchin
Herts
flag msg tools
Avatar
slatersteven wrote:
XanderF wrote:
galad2003 wrote:
For the most part I agree with this guy. The US economy would benefit greatly if we brought more manufacturing back to this country. Stop giving tax breaks to countries that move their operations over seas.

It is also better for the environment as western countries have laws where as China is pretty lax.


Agreed completely.

One of the reasons that 'outsourcing' IS so cheap is that third-world operations externalize much of the true cost of doing business onto their local populations, which have little say in the matter, while their governments reap the rewards.


Completely disagree.


Low wages and poor working practices are why companies outsource, not tax breaks.


He's not talking about tax - but all the external costs for employing people and running a factory. Things like:

Pollution
Health and safety standards
Construction standards
Welfare
Pensions
etc

i.e. the same thing you said. You are so argumentative you say you disagree even when you actually agree with a poster.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Boaty McBoatface
England
County of Essex
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jon_1066 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
XanderF wrote:
galad2003 wrote:
For the most part I agree with this guy. The US economy would benefit greatly if we brought more manufacturing back to this country. Stop giving tax breaks to countries that move their operations over seas.

It is also better for the environment as western countries have laws where as China is pretty lax.


Agreed completely.

One of the reasons that 'outsourcing' IS so cheap is that third-world operations externalize much of the true cost of doing business onto their local populations, which have little say in the matter, while their governments reap the rewards.


Completely disagree.


Low wages and poor working practices are why companies outsource, not tax breaks.


He's not talking about tax - but all the external costs for employing people and running a factory. Things like:

Pollution
Health and safety standards
Construction standards
Welfare
Pensions
etc

i.e. the same thing you said. You are so argumentative you say you disagree even when you actually agree with a poster.
The I agree, with the exception of pensions and welfare (many companies do not pay pensions, and very few provide welfare, this is why the state had to step in to provide these).

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Germany
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
CaffeineBot wrote:
Simon Mueller wrote:
I agree in general, but innovation certainly doesn't "always start with a product".

Innovation is distinct from invention.

I didn't suggest they were the same.

Innovations can be intangible, immaterial, not marketable... simply not a product.

Unless you define all apects of life as products. Which would be sad, quite frankly.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon M
United Kingdom
Hitchin
Herts
flag msg tools
Avatar
slatersteven wrote:
Jon_1066 wrote:
...

He's not talking about tax - but all the external costs for employing people and running a factory. Things like:

Pollution
Health and safety standards
Construction standards
Welfare
Pensions
etc

i.e. the same thing you said. You are so argumentative you say you disagree even when you actually agree with a poster.
The I agree, with the exception of pensions and welfare (many companies do not pay pensions, and very few provide welfare, this is why the state had to step in to provide these).



Pensions and welfare in most Western Democracies are provided through taxation on employment - eg National Insurance in the UK. Thus the cost of employing a worker in the UK is higher since the company pays taxes for each employee. These direct taxes increase the cost of doing business compared to the developing world.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Boaty McBoatface
England
County of Essex
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jon_1066 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Jon_1066 wrote:
...

He's not talking about tax - but all the external costs for employing people and running a factory. Things like:

Pollution
Health and safety standards
Construction standards
Welfare
Pensions
etc

i.e. the same thing you said. You are so argumentative you say you disagree even when you actually agree with a poster.
The I agree, with the exception of pensions and welfare (many companies do not pay pensions, and very few provide welfare, this is why the state had to step in to provide these).



Pensions and welfare in most Western Democracies are provided through taxation on employment - eg National Insurance in the UK. Thus the cost of employing a worker in the UK is higher since the company pays taxes for each employee. These direct taxes increase the cost of doing business compared to the developing world.
And in most non western countries these things are not provided by anyone. So in fact it is not "tax breaks" that enable companies to produce goods cheaper in the third world, it is poorer working conditions (which is what I said). It may well be they pay less tax (but then we are talking about tax), it is not tax breaks (I.E. they do not pay less tax to attract business, they pay less tax because the country treats it's citizens like shit anyway), the country has a lower tax rate anyway.

But I suspect he was not talking about this, but providing tax breaks (in western countries) for companies that then outsource their workers.


You are so determined to disagree with me you say you disagree even when you actually agree with me.

Of course all of this ignores the biggest reason for higher wages in the west, the cost of living, in the UK the average rent (for one room) is higher then many third world workers earn (before tax).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Stein
msg tools
Simon Mueller wrote:
CaffeineBot wrote:
Simon Mueller wrote:
I agree in general, but innovation certainly doesn't "always start with a product".

Innovation is distinct from invention.

I didn't suggest they were the same.

Innovations can be intangible, immaterial, not marketable... simply not a product.

Unless you define all apects of life as products. Which would be sad, quite frankly.


You misunderstand. Innovation is the application within markets or society of an idea. Generally, as here, it's used for the former. Social innovation tends to refer to public goods- the word doesn't seem to see much play outside of an economic sense.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
jeremy cobert
United States
cedar rapids
Iowa
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
tesuji wrote:
This Is the Man Bill Gates Thinks You Absolutely Should Be Reading


I disagree, I think Bill's bookshelf in that article tells the real story of who we should be reading. I hope Bill learned a few things from those books.


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jeremycobert wrote:
tesuji wrote:
This Is the Man Bill Gates Thinks You Absolutely Should Be Reading


I disagree, I think Bill's bookshelf in that article tells the real story of who we should be reading. I hope Bill learned a few things from those books.



Given your displays of dubious reading comprehension skills this picture is far less impressive than perhaps it ought otherwise be.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Belgium
flag msg tools
Meaningless means there's a strong limit to how much I can mess up!
badge
This overtext is not in use.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jeremycobert wrote:
tesuji wrote:
This Is the Man Bill Gates Thinks You Absolutely Should Be Reading


I disagree, I think Bill's bookshelf in that article tells the real story of who we should be reading. I hope Bill learned a few things from those books.


You're a fan of General chemistry?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
jeremy cobert
United States
cedar rapids
Iowa
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
Given your displays of dubious reading comprehension skills this picture is far less impressive than perhaps it ought otherwise be.


Slow day on the settlement bulldozer ?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Boaty McBoatface
England
County of Essex
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jeremycobert wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Given your displays of dubious reading comprehension skills this picture is far less impressive than perhaps it ought otherwise be.


Slow day on the settlement bulldozer ?
For fuck sake!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
slatersteven wrote:
jeremycobert wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Given your displays of dubious reading comprehension skills this picture is far less impressive than perhaps it ought otherwise be.


Slow day on the settlement bulldozer ?
For fuck sake!

LOL
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Xander Fulton
United States
Astoria
Oregon
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
slatersteven wrote:
Jon_1066 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Jon_1066 wrote:
...

He's not talking about tax - but all the external costs for employing people and running a factory. Things like:

Pollution
Health and safety standards
Construction standards
Welfare
Pensions
etc

i.e. the same thing you said. You are so argumentative you say you disagree even when you actually agree with a poster.
The I agree, with the exception of pensions and welfare (many companies do not pay pensions, and very few provide welfare, this is why the state had to step in to provide these).



Pensions and welfare in most Western Democracies are provided through taxation on employment - eg National Insurance in the UK. Thus the cost of employing a worker in the UK is higher since the company pays taxes for each employee. These direct taxes increase the cost of doing business compared to the developing world.
And in most non western countries these things are not provided by anyone. So in fact it is not "tax breaks" that enable companies to produce goods cheaper in the third world, it is poorer working conditions (which is what I said). It may well be they pay less tax (but then we are talking about tax), it is not tax breaks (I.E. they do not pay less tax to attract business, they pay less tax because the country treats it's citizens like shit anyway), the country has a lower tax rate anyway.

But I suspect he was not talking about this, but providing tax breaks (in western countries) for companies that then outsource their workers.



Tax breaks are more of an 'insult to injury' sort of thing. They are part of the profit advantage of moving production overseas, but not NEARLY as much as the vastly reduced actual cost from:
- Employees who have no negotiating capability to arrange better wages
- No reasonable job safety precautions or protections (that stuff is expensive!)
- No environmental protection, and collusion with local governments keeping liability for even large-scale disasters at a minimum (can you imagine what would have happened if Bhopal had occurred in Texas or New Jersey??)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Boaty McBoatface
England
County of Essex
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
XanderF wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Jon_1066 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Jon_1066 wrote:
...

He's not talking about tax - but all the external costs for employing people and running a factory. Things like:

Pollution
Health and safety standards
Construction standards
Welfare
Pensions
etc

i.e. the same thing you said. You are so argumentative you say you disagree even when you actually agree with a poster.
The I agree, with the exception of pensions and welfare (many companies do not pay pensions, and very few provide welfare, this is why the state had to step in to provide these).



Pensions and welfare in most Western Democracies are provided through taxation on employment - eg National Insurance in the UK. Thus the cost of employing a worker in the UK is higher since the company pays taxes for each employee. These direct taxes increase the cost of doing business compared to the developing world.
And in most non western countries these things are not provided by anyone. So in fact it is not "tax breaks" that enable companies to produce goods cheaper in the third world, it is poorer working conditions (which is what I said). It may well be they pay less tax (but then we are talking about tax), it is not tax breaks (I.E. they do not pay less tax to attract business, they pay less tax because the country treats it's citizens like shit anyway), the country has a lower tax rate anyway.

But I suspect he was not talking about this, but providing tax breaks (in western countries) for companies that then outsource their workers.



Tax breaks are more of an 'insult to injury' sort of thing. They are part of the profit advantage of moving production overseas, but not NEARLY as much as the vastly reduced actual cost from:
- Employees who have no negotiating capability to arrange better wages
- No reasonable job safety precautions or protections (that stuff is expensive!)
- No environmental protection, and collusion with local governments keeping liability for even large-scale disasters at a minimum (can you imagine what would have happened if Bhopal had occurred in Texas or New Jersey??)
I agree, (as I said) as well as lower wages.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Stein
msg tools
whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
jeremycobert wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Given your displays of dubious reading comprehension skills this picture is far less impressive than perhaps it ought otherwise be.


Slow day on the settlement bulldozer ?
For fuck sake!

LOL


Do you see Moses as a righteous crusader knocking down illegal settlements, bowie knife clutched in his teeth, Che Guevara beret atop his head?

Or do you picture him cackling as he rides roughshod over the roughly constructed kennel of the limbless orphans puppy?

The people have a right to know!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
CaffeineBot wrote:
whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
jeremycobert wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Given your displays of dubious reading comprehension skills this picture is far less impressive than perhaps it ought otherwise be.


Slow day on the settlement bulldozer ?
For fuck sake!

LOL


Do you see Moses as a righteous crusader knocking down illegal settlements, bowie knife clutched in his teeth, Che Guevara beret atop his head?

Or do you picture him cackling as he rides roughshod over the roughly constructed kennel of the limbless orphans puppy?

The people have a right to know!

no
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.