Frank Müller
Austria
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
I just got the Austrians. I like the set, but where is the highly practical quick reference card for this army? I couldnt find them in my box????

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Duke
United States
Georgetown
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Keep looking on here, it is already posted.
Note from Richard Borg.

Take a deep breath....

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1078171/some-richard-borg-no...

Sometimes it pays off to spend 2 mins looking around before you post something. You might find it!
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Serre combe olivier
France
Marseille
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't understand this decision about this reference cards shake


2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Smith
United States
Capitola
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sduke wrote:
Keep looking on here, it is already posted.
Note from Richard Borg.

Take a deep breath....

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1078171/some-richard-borg-no...

Sometimes it pays off to spend 2 mins looking around before you post something. You might find it!


Here's the quote.


Quote:
In regard to the Quick Reference Card or lack of same in the Austrian expansion, after seeing these cards used in action a number of times, I realized that they were actually hindering the process of learning the basics of the game. In addition, less experienced players would refer to these cards even for the most simple of combat situations, which tended to really slow play. GMT went along with my request to leave these out of the Austrian Army expansion.


IMHO, the person who decides whether to use the quick reference card should be the person who actually buys and/or plays the game. Why should Mr. Borg care whether a new player takes a little longer to learn the game using the reference card as a crutch? They're learning a game, a form of recreation and entertainment, not science or math. Perhaps an exit exam should be included that new players must pass before they are allowed to play.
I prefer the quick reference card to the play-aid card, and after several plays, I usually don't need to reference either one. Should we omit the play-aid cards next so that new players are forced to spend more time looking up unit information in the book?




5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cole Wehrle
United States
St. Paul
Minnesota
flag msg tools
designer
badge
"Work as if you live in the early days of a better nation"
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jayman66 wrote:

IMHO, the person who decides whether to use the quick reference card should be the person who actually buys and/or plays the game. Why should Mr. Borg care whether a new player takes a little longer to learn the game using the reference card as a crutch?



If there is an element of a game's presentation (like a player aid in the box) that a designer or developer believes is hindering the learning of a game system, I think it's pretty reasonable for them to want to remove that element.

That could mean providing "play aids" or removing them.


4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark McG
Australia
Penshurst
NSW
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Combi wrote:
I don't understand this decision about this reference cards shake


I think the other motivation is the chore of proof reading all those numbers.

If people want to make their own, that is possible, but I absolutely sympathise with Mr Borg here. Some relatively simple mathematical equations become a vast chart of numbers for every instance.

4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Brown
United Kingdom
ABERDEEN
UK
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Our gaming group prefer the charts for reference if their use slows play then you can always place them aside. Give us back the cards GMT/Mr Borg.Please
I do not wish for this game to go the way of so many others that begin to make changes which only frustrate users.
Dice are included though I use D6s (my choice).
Blocks are included though I use 15mm Figs (my choice).
So again please make it my choice to use or not the QR charts.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark McG
Australia
Penshurst
NSW
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think you are ignoring the main point, that the charts hinder the learning of the game. The slowing of play was an additional point.

At least one aspect of playing C&C games is understanding the probabilities of outcomes. Of course probability matters little in the face of the harsh reality of the dice. Theoretically players can estimate outcomes based on the number of dice, and the probability of results. This can have significant tactical effects in allocation of attacks.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
StevenE Smooth Sailing...
United States
Torrance
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Minedog3 wrote:
I think you are ignoring the main point, that the charts hinder the learning of the game. The slowing of play was an additional point.

At least one aspect of playing C&C games is understanding the probabilities of outcomes. Of course probability matters little in the face of the harsh reality of the dice. Theoretically players can estimate outcomes based on the number of dice, and the probability of results. This can have significant tactical effects in allocation of attacks.


Is this a fact or an opinion?

To your second point I do agree that with more frequent play people will remember the various dice combinations for each army... I also will admit I do not use the army reference cards but the reference sheets I created are always within hands reach.

People learn differently and at different rates... I don't think it is unreasonable to have a crutch until proficiency is gained.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Duke
United States
Georgetown
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Clearly it is an opinion.

I have played hundreds of games and I still consult the player aid card frequently, to make sure.

Let ME decide if I want to use it, don't do my thinking for me. There should have been player aid cards with the game.

But that's just my opinion.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark McG
Australia
Penshurst
NSW
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well actually it was a reason. Richard Borg wrote;

Quote:
In regard to the Quick Reference Card or lack of same in the Austrian expansion, after seeing these cards used in action a number of times, I realized that they were actually hindering the process of learning the basics of the game. In addition, less experienced players would refer to these cards even for the most simple of combat situations, which tended to really slow play. GMT went along with my request to leave these out of the Austrian Army expansion.


If you read the quoted text from him, his reasons were that the QRC hindered the learning process. Then "In addition.. slowed etc.

So his decision was based upon 2 observations, learning and speed of play. In focussing on the speed of play, you ignored what appeared to be the primary reason.

I actually have no opinion on the inclusion of a QRC one way or the other. In my view, if you want a QRC, make one. I suspect by the time you finish making it you would have the math down such that you no longer require the QRC. Would take about 5 minutes per nationality in Excel.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Duke
United States
Georgetown
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yes, in Borg's opinion, they were slowing down the game.

First question to him: so what? Your scenarios have no time limit anyway.

What was your sample size to make such an hypothesis? I know he is extremely active at conventions and such so it is likely an educated assessment based on trends he has seen.

That said, I have made custom designed reference cards for demos and found them to be useful and to speed play, not hinder it.

Happily with a place like BGG, someone will make a chart and post it here.

And I will use it. It is just not for new players.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Lee

Georgia
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I totally agree with Steve Duke.

Why change the format now? The first two iterations of CCN have the reference aids. Heck, I'm 49 and go weeks without playing the game and the reference aid actually helps me recall the rules we I come back to playing the game! Now I've got to search the dang rule book (which is not as easy as using the charts).

Those who are younger and have stickier memories AND play more often may not use them. BUT PLEASE INCLUDE THEM FOR THE REST OF US! I would not buy the Austrian expansion if I didn't know some one was going to eventually create the reference aids on BGG.

WITH the reference aids, those who don't want them can ignore them and those who do want them can use them.

WITHOUT the reference aids, those who want to ignore them don't have to, and those who want them end up frustrated.

Would have been better to give both preferences the option, so this was a bad decision by Mr. Borg, in my opinion and with all due respect.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark McG
Australia
Penshurst
NSW
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sigh.. file uploaded. Took 40 minutes. 20 minutes for the table, and 20 minutes formatting...

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Duke
United States
Georgetown
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yes, they look like you spent 20 minutes on them too...

Hopefully we will get one of our graphic people here to pretty it up.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark McG
Australia
Penshurst
NSW
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
hey.. I just do the math. If you want pretty, I'm not the guy.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Duke
United States
Georgetown
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Minedog3 wrote:
hey.. I just do the math. If you want pretty, I'm not the guy.


Haha, you can say THAT again!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ferro Ostil
United States
New York City
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I just posted a quick reference that includes the Austrians. Not that pretty either but better than some. whistle
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Phill Webb
Australia
Melbourne
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
And I've just added the Austrians to my reference chart.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/76769/freeloading-phil...
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nigel Heather
United Kingdom
Horsham
West Sussex
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Read the GMT official line and to be honest it doesn't wash with me.

If it were a decision up front, but now we have base + spanish + russian all with reference cards, it will be really odd not having them for the austrians.

So presumably if GMT feel so strongly about this, there will be no reference cards in any future reprints, starting with ancients combo expansion.

I personally, find the reference cards very useful. With so many different units some very similar but with tiny subtle differences I find the reference cards so much easier than going to the rulebook.

More likely it is GMT's latest trial to save some money. We've had the spanish overlay printed on paper rather than cardboard, the absence of paint on the eastern kingdom blocks in ancients exp 1 reprint and now no reference cards in the austrian expansion.

GMT, I appreciate the market is quite tight and every cent saved helps, but please consider putting the prices up by a dollar or two and doing the job properly instead of these dodgy cuts you keep trying.

Cheers,

Nigel
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark McG
Australia
Penshurst
NSW
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Nigel, my understanding is that the unselected Reference card is the one that tabulates the number of attack dice based upon the number of blocks and the movement status. It is not the unit reference card that includes movement, retreat, etc. Those are still included.

My recall is the base game had no 'firepower' chart either.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nigel Heather
United Kingdom
Horsham
West Sussex
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Minedog3 wrote:
Nigel, my understanding is that the unselected Reference card is the one that tabulates the number of attack dice based upon the number of blocks and the movement status. It is not the unit reference card that includes movement, retreat, etc. Those are still included.

My recall is the base game had no 'firepower' chart either.


Thanks for the clarification - yes I had misunderstood the post, thinking there were no reference sheets at all.

Cheers,

Nigel
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tanks Alot
United States
Fort Mill
South Carolina
flag msg tools
badge
go2 Youtube Historical Gaming
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In my opinion the ones on the geek are always better than the ones GMT comes out with, and plus they are always fine tuned to include each expansion.

I think the first player came out just wasnt that good.
Then with the Spanish they came out with the cards that show how much to roll on which were pretty cool, but to me I am used to the CC Ancients sheets, so I made sheets more like the CC Ancients style (like Marks)
The Russian player Aid was great, but for me the problem was the first 2 player aids needed to be redone to match the format. Especially the French since they are in every expansion game.


Not everyone has the geek or even knows how to find this. If a "revision in style" to player aides is done, there really should be a a player aide that encompasses all expansion. The problem there is each will have his own preference on what the format should be, so I can see why they left them out.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.