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Tony Barber
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This game seems to use the Command and Colors system but it came out 8 years before Richard Borg made battle cry and invented the Command and Colors system.
Battle cry was made by Avalon Hill (Hasbro)
Battle masters by MB (Hasbro).
So did Stephen Baker really invent command and colors for Battle Masters and Later Richard Borg use the system in Battle cry?
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Ryan
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I wouldn't link it to Command and Colors.

Similarities: It has cards, units activated by cards, map has hexes.

Differences: Players don't have hands, turn activation by card drawn off the top deck (not I go / you go), no sections, cards not generic to both sides, flags are meaningless and there to make unit trays easier to pick up.
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Toco
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However, Richard Borg DID work on (unreleased) American HeroQuest expansions. The genius Stephen Baker did work his way up the ladder at Hasbro USA...
So it is POSSIBLE that Richard Borg salvaged some ideas here and there. But that's a GOOD thing! Both designers delivered EXCELENT board games.
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Tim M-L
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Tony, how do you define "the Commands and Colors system" so that it includes Battle Masters? I suspect your definition will include a lot of games.
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Tony Barber
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Back in the day when I used to go to Games workshop to play games one night they had battle masters out and they had a small hand of cards and if I remember correctly were allowed to play up to 2 but only got 1 back each turn. I remember a guy at GW saying that's the way most people play it so I guess it was a GW house rule and that makes it very very similar to C&C. If what you say Toco is correct I guess Borg must have been familiar with the Battle Masters system and must have known Stephen Baker otherwise its all just an amazing coincidence.
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Tim M-L
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pirtrom wrote:
Back in the day when I used to go to Games workshop to play games one night they had battle masters out and they had a small hand of cards and if I remember correctly were allowed to play up to 2 but only got 1 back each turn. I remember a guy at GW saying that's the way most people play it so I guess it was a GW house rule and that makes it very very similar to C&C. If what you say Toco is correct I guess Borg must have been familiar with the Battle Masters system and must have known Stephen Baker otherwise its all just an amazing coincidence.


That is an interesting house rule. Each card is only good for one side, so either they divided the deck into two separate decks, or were you playing cards to activate the other side as well?

It is also possible that the demo game you played was taking some points from Richard Borg. I don't have any idea when he began working on Commands and Colors, but he does do demos of games he is working on at conventions. It is quite possible that someone involved with your game of Battle Masters had played or read about Commands and Colors well before Battle Cry was released.
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Michael Taylor
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I played last week using the house rules found here for dividing the deck into Imperial and Chaos decks and each player using their own decks.

I thought it worked fine.

And there is nothing even remotely similar about the way Command & Colors & Battle Masters uses cards. Except that they use cards.

And cards have been used for activating units far before either of these two games.

There's not more of a relationship between these two games than there is with the way Piquet or Battlestar Galactica uses cards.
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Christian Sperling
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One of the key feature of the Command and Colors system is the flank, center activation mechanic, which isn't present in Battle Masters.

The activation of units with cards is older than Battle Masters.
Some examples are Assault on Hoth: The Empire Strikes Back from 1988 and Sirocco from 1985. And I think there are even older games with this mechanic.

IIRC, there was a discussion in the wargames forum or a geeklist(?) where this mechanic was discussed.
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Tony Barber
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timlillig wrote:
pirtrom wrote:
Back in the day when I used to go to Games workshop to play games one night they had battle masters out and they had a small hand of cards and if I remember correctly were allowed to play up to 2 but only got 1 back each turn. I remember a guy at GW saying that's the way most people play it so I guess it was a GW house rule and that makes it very very similar to C&C. If what you say Toco is correct I guess Borg must have been familiar with the Battle Masters system and must have known Stephen Baker otherwise its all just an amazing coincidence.


That is an interesting house rule. Each card is only good for one side, so either they divided the deck into two separate decks, or were you playing cards to activate the other side as well?

It is also possible that the demo game you played was taking some points from Richard Borg. I don't have any idea when he began working on Commands and Colors, but he does do demos of games he is working on at conventions. It is quite possible that someone involved with your game of Battle Masters had played or read about Commands and Colors well before Battle Cry was released.


this was in 1993 just after games workshop games day at Birmingham. The decks were split and it played much like C&C. this was 7 years before Battle Cry came out. Its a bit strange that Battle cry is similar to Stephen Bakers game and they must have known each other as Stephen Baker was games director at Hasbro when Borg got Battle cry published at Hasbro. You think Stephen Baker would have said hey that's my game. I think the base mechanics in Battle masters formed C&C and Stephen Baker was really the main man.
 
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Tim M-L
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pirtrom wrote:
timlillig wrote:
pirtrom wrote:
Back in the day when I used to go to Games workshop to play games one night they had battle masters out and they had a small hand of cards and if I remember correctly were allowed to play up to 2 but only got 1 back each turn. I remember a guy at GW saying that's the way most people play it so I guess it was a GW house rule and that makes it very very similar to C&C. If what you say Toco is correct I guess Borg must have been familiar with the Battle Masters system and must have known Stephen Baker otherwise its all just an amazing coincidence.


That is an interesting house rule. Each card is only good for one side, so either they divided the deck into two separate decks, or were you playing cards to activate the other side as well?

It is also possible that the demo game you played was taking some points from Richard Borg. I don't have any idea when he began working on Commands and Colors, but he does do demos of games he is working on at conventions. It is quite possible that someone involved with your game of Battle Masters had played or read about Commands and Colors well before Battle Cry was released.


this was in 1993 just after games workshop games day at Birmingham. The decks were split and it played much like C&C. this was 7 years before Battle Cry came out. Its a bit strange that Battle cry is similar to Stephen Bakers game and they must have known each other as Stephen Baker was games director at Hasbro when Borg got Battle cry published at Hasbro. You think Stephen Baker would have said hey that's my game. I think the base mechanics in Battle masters formed C&C and Stephen Baker was really the main man.


Both Battle Masters and Battle Cry borrow heavily form older games going back decades. I think they are much more like cousins in a family tree of games using common methods like card activation and hexes rather than a parent/child relationship.
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Tony Barber
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Thanks for your replies guys most informative.
Tony
 
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Jim Patching
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I've got to be honest, the first time I came across the Commands and Colours system I thought of Battlemasters straight away too. I think maybe it's easy in this day and age where we have loads of card driven war games to more easily see the differences between Battlemasters and C&C.

Battlemasters was I think the first game I played where you didn't have a set turn sequence for your units - you couldn't choose which order to activate things, you were dependent on the random draw of a card.

At the time, I didn't like this much. The next game I played that had a similar sort of mechanic was Battle Cry.
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David O Miller
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Interestingly enough when I play BattleMasters I use the same hex sheet that I use for Battle Cry. I just ignore the left flank/right flank lines on the matt.

To see what I mean here's a link to my Advanced BattleMasters page over at Heroscapers.com:
http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1878324&...

And here's a link to a photo of my Battle Cry setup here on BGG:
http://boardgamegeek.com/image/1856897/battle-cry-150th-civi...

In all pictures you can see that I'm using the same flocked matt.
 
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Adam Jones
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pirtrom wrote:
This game seems to use the Command and Colors system but it came out 8 years before Richard Borg made battle cry and invented the Command and Colors system.
Battle cry was made by Avalon Hill (Hasbro)
Battle masters by MB (Hasbro).
So did Stephen Baker really invent command and colors for Battle Masters and Later Richard Borg use the system in Battle cry?


Hasbro bought MB in 1984, Parker Bros in 1991, and AH in 1998 so it's possible they could have shared the same battle systems.
 
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