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HeroQuest 25th Anniversary Edition» Forums » General

Subject: I think I'm the only one here that doesn't jump on the GZ bashing wagon. rss

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Danilo Salvadori
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I really don't understand all this hate I read in the forum... GZ acquired the rights of the name and start building a project that a huge amount of people like me were asking for in the last 15 years. I personally don't care if they had checked every single legal details before making this and I think it's disgusting to accuse them of stealing or worse. Hasbro, MD and every company that have the legal rights let literally ROT the game in a basement ignoring all the requests of people like me for YEARS. And now they become the knights with shining armors protecting the HQ name and license?? Where were they when people like me made petitions after petitions to publish a new edition of the game?? Too busy counting money? They became incredibly interested in HQ again as soon as they saw that a little spanish company can raise half a million in 2 days. Wow. Amazing! Now that they smell money they wave their legal rights and start acting like victims of these awful awful "thieves" of GZ. I'm ready to bet anything that now a new HQ is going to be announced, right after GZ and their project is legally destroyed. Personally I can't see MD and Hasbro has victims here. Maybe they have the rights but they lost all my support now that I see that they do something only when you touch their wallets and not when fans asked them.

After writing this message here, I read the "official statement" by MD and, surprise surprise... they're working on a boardgame now! REALLY? Now? Incredible. I can't wait to buy the official 30 years anniversary or some other thing like taht, that will be sold at about ten times the price of the GZ project!!! Yeeeeaah! F**k GZ!!!

I want to throw up.
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Yago González Rozas
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You and me might want whatever we want. I might want a HQ remake made by a spanish company, yes, but IP rights are there for something, to protect creators work. And this is not just about Hasbro, GW or the cat. GW made materials for the game (at least, people in their company), Hasbro the same, and Mr. Backer the same. They are entitled to share in that IP.

We can discuss if MD deserves money or not (we can discuss it, I think if they are doing their own board game and they have to renounce to it, they are), but not the others, even if they let the license rot.
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Everything between now and the next game is just killing time
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f2ilbardo wrote:
I want to throw up.

As do I.
But it's because you are commenting on something when you have not read the material on the very site you are posting.

MD does not have the rights to this HeroQuest board game, they have the rights to the name HeroQuest and make an entirely different game with that name. But in order to make the 'old' game GZ need to ask to use the name HeroQuest, MD said no and GZ went ahead anyway.

Actually this isn't worth the bother (of re-typing it all out for your benefit), just go read the other threads please.
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Joshua Speelman
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What has been boggling my mind is how the OP, like so many other people, seem to give GZ a pass on the fact that they lied.

The said all the legal stuff was worked out when they KNEW it wasn't.

But MD is the bad guy for protecting their trademark.
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Danilo Salvadori
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razagul wrote:
but IP rights are there for something


I'm not talking about laws, I'm talking about ethics. Because I read a lot of people start accusing GZ of being thieves of worse. And if you start accusing other people of being a "fraud" and start saying that there are "victims", I have a huge problem. I don't believe you can morally say that you're a victim when you ignored your game for more than 15 years and other people wants to revive it. Expecially because way before this project came to KS a lot of people were already asking for a new edition, there were petitions, every copy is sold on ebay on absurd prices! If these guys had not started this KS campaign HQ would have been abandoned for who knows how long. And I have to think of them as a bunch of criminals that wanted to steal money to honest people? Come on! I can't do that, I'm sorry. I don't care about the laws. If you forgot your game and leave it on a shelf and don't listen to people who wants to experience it, you lose any moral rights in my opinion.
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Vexi
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Matchstickman wrote:
Actually this isn't worth the bother (of re-typing it all out for your benefit), just go read the other threads please.

This. Isn't there enough of these threads already.
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Danilo Salvadori
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Joshua the Gamer wrote:
But MD is the bad guy for protecting their trademark.


If you abandon a game for years, maybe you have the legal rights to "protect it" but you don't have any kind of moral rights in my eyes. Because you are not "protecting" anything. There's no game in stores, you're just protecting your wallet. The laws defend you, I don't. In my opinion "the good guy" is the one that is trying to let me and a lot of other people experience the game once more. The one that is blocking that when they were ignoring all the requests for years are the bad guy. Yeah.
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Danilo Salvadori
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Rompe wrote:
Matchstickman wrote:
Actually this isn't worth the bother (of re-typing it all out for your benefit), just go read the other threads please.

This. Isn't there enough of these threads already.


I didn't want to express a "legal" argument but an ethical one. That's why I opened a new thread. I'm sorry if it wasn't clear, english is not my native language and I'm not use to write in it.
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John Middleton
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If you own something, you own it regardless of whether you use it all the time.

Suppose that you own a fancy old car. You only drive it when members of you family get married.

Now just because someone isn't getting married today in your family and you are not out driving it, does not suddenly mean that you don't own it anymore.

It does not mean that some other guy can buy your car from a third party and come drive it around.



----------------------------------------------------------------------


GZ doesn't own the rights to make or remake a game utilizing anything from the original Heroquest. They only own the name Heroquest in Spain. And they apparently did not buy it from any official source that was ever connected with the game.

They know other companies hold the same rights to the name that they do in other countries. However, rather than trying to work with these companies and make the game they want to make, they skirt the law and try to sneak it past them.

And now, faced with the prospect of not being able to use Kickstarter, they threaten to make the game only in Spain, where again they only have right to the name Heroquest and not anything else of the original game. Their motive to conduct the operation in only Spain has been stated to be an avoidance of other International legal issues.

Seems like a cut and dried case of Trademark infringement and Intellectual Property Theft.

Not hard to see who the bad guy is here.
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Joshua Speelman
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f2ilbardo wrote:
Joshua the Gamer wrote:
But MD is the bad guy for protecting their trademark.


If you abandon a game for years, maybe you have the legal rights to "protect it" but you don't have any kind of moral rights in my eyes. Because you are not "protecting" anything. There's no game in stores, you're just protecting your wallet. The laws defend you, I don't. In my opinion "the good guy" is the one that is trying to let me and a lot of other people experience the game once more. The one that is blocking that when they were ignoring all the requests for years are the bad guy. Yeah.


Perhaps you should go read the other threads as suggested. You're clearly not informed of all the details.
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Håvard Sommerseth
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So let's say that you write a book that gets very popular, and is sold out. People want a reprint. They go on nagging about a reprint for years. For some reason or the other, you don't want it reprinted. Maybe for some personal reason or something. After 25 years another person decides to make an anniversary edition of your book. He changed a lot of the stuff in it, but the main story is the same and he keeps the name. How would you feel?
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Paul W
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f2ilbardo wrote:
Joshua the Gamer wrote:
But MD is the bad guy for protecting their trademark.


If you abandon a game for years, maybe you have the legal rights to "protect it" but you don't have any kind of moral rights in my eyes.
As has already been pointed out to you in this thread, MD does not have the rights to the boardgame, just the name. The only right they are asserting is to the name. They didn't abandon anything.
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John Middleton
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Regarding you ethics argument....


Ethical individuals and companies do not attempt to circumvent the law when they are told that they are in the wrong. GZ is trying to do just this.


Ethical individuals and companies do not fabricate falsehoods to entice customers to buy their products. GZ did this blatantly on their Kickstarter page and in their released FAQ about the game.


Ethical individuals and companies do not attempt to bring a product to market without clearing the trademarks and intellectual properties rights with all concerned parties. GZ tried to avoid MDs licensing of the name in the US and have not, as far as we know, contacted the games original designer Stephen baker, the games publisher Hasbro, or the company that originally produced the world and artwork, GW.


GZ are the ethical losers here. In every instance they have behaved unethically.
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Pete aka The Masked Minstrel
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hasoere wrote:
So let's say that you write a book that gets very popular, and is sold out. People want a reprint. They go on nagging about a reprint for years. For some reason or the other, you don't want it reprinted. Maybe for some personal reason or something. After 25 years another person decides to make an anniversary edition of your book. He changed a lot of the stuff in it, but the main story is the same and he keeps the name. How would you feel?


Take out the sparkling vampires amongst other atrocities and I 'might' consider an alternative vampire story
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Greg Wilson
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f2ilbardo wrote:
Joshua the Gamer wrote:
But MD is the bad guy for protecting their trademark.


If you abandon a game for years, maybe you have the legal rights to "protect it" but you don't have any kind of moral rights in my eyes. Because you are not "protecting" anything. There's no game in stores, you're just protecting your wallet. The laws defend you, I don't. In my opinion "the good guy" is the one that is trying to let me and a lot of other people experience the game once more. The one that is blocking that when they were ignoring all the requests for years are the bad guy. Yeah.


Again, Moon Design make the HeroQuest RPG, not the boardgame. The RPG is currently in print and supported with supplements.
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Danilo Salvadori
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hasoere wrote:
So let's say that you write a book that gets very popular, and is sold out. People want a reprint. They go on nagging about a reprint for years. For some reason or the other, you don't want it reprinted. Maybe for some personal reason or something. After 25 years another person decides to make an anniversary edition of your book. He changed a lot of the stuff in it, but the main story is the same and he keeps the name. How would you feel?


I feel like an idiot because I didn't thought to reprint the book before. And I feel like I probably don't care about that book anymore because I didn't want to reprint it, so if you want to republish it as yours with same title or different or whatever, I don't care. I will be pissed ONLY IF you publish the book again with my name attach to it. Because I don't want to have anything to do with the book anymore, if it wasn't true I will publish it again!
I don't get how can you say otherwise. I have the rights to SELL the book, I don't have the rights to BLOCK people to read it just because I said so.

I'm a consumer, I want to play HQ, I want my son to play HQ. I DON'T CARE who publish it or who gets the money. But I'm not going to defend people who basically ignored me for 15 years and now they're even saying that NOONE should be able to give me HQ. :-D :-D
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Paul W
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f2ilbardo wrote:
But I'm not going to defend people who basically ignored me for 15 years and now they're even saying that NOONE should be able to give me HQ. :-D :-D
That's not what's happening here at all, as has been pointed out in this thread multiple times.
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The One
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f2ilbardo wrote:
If you forgot your game and leave it on a shelf and don't listen to people who wants to experience it, you lose any moral rights in my opinion.


Do you sit on any ethics committees, or is this stance just more convenient to your perceived needs at this time?
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Wayne O'Keeffe
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I think you'll still see a new copy of Heroquest in the next year or two. It just wont be available directly into the USA.

However, if Gamezone run a european campaign then I think they will still run in to the same issues as the Kickstarter because GamesWorkshop has the rights(or trademark or whatever) to the name Heroquest in Britain. With Britain being in europe I don't see how Gamezone can claim that everything will be fine if they crowd-fund in europe.

If Gamezone want to make this then I think they'll have to fund and produce the game in Spain (if you believe what they say about having no issues with legality there).

But, regardless if Moon Design have or haven't a game in the works with the name Heroquest, they have the right to protect that name. It at least gives them the option to produce a game/products down the line without any erosion to their brand. (God knows if MD even have the right to produce a non RPG game with the name HQ). Again, if GamesWorkshop have the Heroquest name in the UK then I don't see any issue with them protecting whats theirs and exploiting the Heroquest name for their benefit for as long as they have the right to do so. The fact that they haven't't chosen to leverage the Heroquest name yet isn't important.

Personally I'm giving Gamezone the benefit of the doubt that they were just naive with regards to their understanding of what they could and couldn't do. If you see what minitures they produce (class minis btw) it could be easy to imagine that they don't see the threat of GamesWorkshop et al to be a big deal. Again, if what they say is true about being able to produce the game in Spain then they should really do a GMT like P500 campaign to get what they need. Yes, they might only raise 50K to 100K but if their product is good and actually in the shops then the other 400K will follow by direct sales.

For me €100 is worth a punt on the chance this game gets made. Future backers would need to be aware that they could lose their pledge but all Kickstarter backers SHOULD be comfortable with that risk. If you're not comfortable with that then don't crowdfund.
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Peter Thur
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f2ilbardo wrote:
If you forgot your game and leave it on a shelf and don't listen to people who wants to experience it, you lose any moral rights in my opinion.


Note to self: Never invite f2ilbardo for some games. He might confiscate that old HQ copy just because it hasn't been played for years...
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Vexi
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f2ilbardo wrote:
I'm a consumer, I want to play HQ, I want my son to play HQ. I DON'T CARE who publish it or who gets the money.

Good, then ebay is your friend, my friend. And if you want to pimp the original game up, there's already multiple DIY threads and posts that help you on where to get higher quality miniatures, furniture, dice, cards etc. And all this you can do with the same amount of money or less than what you would spend to this Kickstarter. And you'll certainly get a game that true to it's origins. Just.. think about it, if you really want to play HQ so much.

And by the way, English is my third language and I'm not used to writing it either. Spanish is my fourth, so even worse with that.
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Danilo Salvadori
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DegenerateElite wrote:
GZ are the ethical losers here. In every instance they have behaved unethically.


You're basically saying that since GZ didn't respect the laws they're automatically unethics. This is a circular arguments. I'm not talking about laws. :-D :-D Come on, man! :-D :-D
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Personally the whole legal circus doesnt interest and bother me, i just want the game one way or the other! So let them all make friends and work together on a great anniversary edition of one the founders of our hobby.
Just my two cents.
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Danilo Salvadori
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Dumnbunny wrote:
f2ilbardo wrote:
But I'm not going to defend people who basically ignored me for 15 years and now they're even saying that NOONE should be able to give me HQ. :-D :-D
That's not what's happening here at all, as has been pointed out in this thread multiple times.


Oh really? So the project is going on because everyone is interested in making it and everyone wants to make the fans happy and have the game republished? Or HQ was already republished and I didn't saw it because it was the "invisible edition"?
 
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Joshua Speelman
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f2ilbardo wrote:
DegenerateElite wrote:
GZ are the ethical losers here. In every instance they have behaved unethically.


You're basically saying that since GZ didn't respect the laws they're automatically unethics. This is a circular arguments. I'm not talking about laws. :-D :-D Come on, man! :-D :-D


Wow! Your blinders are on nice and tight.
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