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Subject: the good, the so-so, the bad rss

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mks
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this is a very short review mentioning three aspects of the game, which in order made me excited enough to get the game and become dissapointed.

the good: L7:OP is an advanture boardgame (the so-called dungeon-crawler) but with tactics - I love the rules for gaining cover, different abilities covering several spaces from a leading character, and commiting-refreshing mechanism for the aliens. all this makes the game stand out. another thing, every marine matters because of their special abilities, so no-one would probably feel unimportant to the mission.

the so-so: after playing for the first time I realized that the game implements the above-mentioned mechanisms in a clumsy way. every alien if it activates can move (very fast) and approach a carachter having a cover and hit him without considering that cover. the bad guys have all the options but some of them were never used in our games for the reason of its cost. maybe we lucked finesse but hitting hard with ten clones was more profitable than bringing rumble on. latly, the rules are missing directives as to how should bigger miniatures (fear hunters) move(!)

the bad: it appears that L7:OP has not learnt its lesson from Descent, where the upgrade between the first and the second version was to move the bad guy's objective from just killing the heroes into participating in the story. in this game, alins need to kill marines, there are some rules that marines cannot be killed totally before the crisis point, but that doesn't change the fact that all their forces will be launched at the marines making their progress an annoying process, which I got after more complex scenarios.

maybe all of these are what an adventure-game players look for, but me.. I look at all the potential that could make this game great. I am still looking for a fun (bor all sides) tactical-centered light adventure miniatures game. L7:OP, in my opinion, isn't the one.
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Heath Gray
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Having only played as the aliens, I completely disagree that just putting out aliens is more profitable than rubble. I personally use it to slow down the characters and make them have to spend more adrenalin to walk through. I think that the alien cards are great and is what helps make the game so great.
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Interesting. What I found as a strength in the game especially when compared to other games like Doom/Descent, that being the strategic choices for the Overseer, you're seeing as a weakness. If the Commandos are working together and are good, just sending in swarms of Clones is not as effective as it sounds. Check out the PBF I'm currently playing for a good example of this, at PBF: Mission 3, Party Time.

I agree with Heath too. I've used the Cave-In dashboard at least once in every game that's had it. Since I'm able to setup the rooms so that I know the Commandos will have to march through the rubble, the 10 Adrenaline seems well worth it (4 Commandos having to spend at least 2 extra adrenaline each if not more, that's 8 Adrenaline plus the free attacks. Worth it!).

Another strength I've found in the game is that you don't tend to pick on that one weak-armored wizard (like the Overlord usually does in Descent), since every Commando's armor changes depending on their stance. Yet another strategic choice to be made on the part of the overseer.

And while it's true that most of the Overseer's objectives are to 'kill the commandos', I've found that since the Commandos' objectives vary so much, it tends to make the Overseer play a different strategy with each mission. And of course, that's not to say that future missions won't come out with different objectives.

Anyways, no game will please everyone. Sorry you weren't able to find as much joy in this one as I have. If you do find that fun for both sides, tactical-centered light adventure mini game that works for you, I'd love to hear it

-shnar
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mks
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shnar wrote:
Interesting. What I found as a strength in the game especially when compared to other games like Doom/Descent, that being the strategic choices for the Overseer, you're seeing as a weakness. If the Commandos are working together and are good, just sending in swarms of Clones is not as effective as it sounds. Check out the PBF I'm currently playing for a good example of this, at PBF: Mission 3, Party Time.

I agree with Heath too. I've used the Cave-In dashboard at least once in every game that's had it. Since I'm able to setup the rooms so that I know the Commandos will have to march through the rubble, the 10 Adrenaline seems well worth it (4 Commandos having to spend at least 2 extra adrenaline each if not more, that's 8 Adrenaline plus the free attacks. Worth it!).

I had to check it again with rules because you seem so convinced about the strength of caving in, but the only thing that rubble does is making it necessary to spend 1 movement point more for leaving it. that's 2 movement point in total for the two things, which costs 10 adrenaline. we found it not worth it.

shnar wrote:
Another strength I've found in the game is that you don't tend to pick on that one weak-armored wizard (like the Overlord usually does in Descent), since every Commando's armor changes depending on their stance. Yet another strategic choice to be made on the part of the overseer.

With this I do totally agree. it is one of the goods meant under the hero abilities. awesome idea.

shnar wrote:
And while it's true that most of the Overseer's objectives are to 'kill the commandos', I've found that since the Commandos' objectives vary so much, it tends to make the Overseer play a different strategy with each mission. And of course, that's not to say that future missions won't come out with different objectives.

Well, not really they don't. It is always get somewhere after passing by all the alien-full rooms. I really wished, by the way, that behind some cards in some of those rooms would be some cool narrative (see Mansions of Madness (which I do not give as better than L7, but just having that narrative with hidden room cards)), but there are always aliens and aliens, and gas. See, that was a kill-joy for me, playing only to spawn monsters and send them in combat, was tiresome even when I was the bad guy.

But I didn't want to get all negative with my review, so I will stress the fact, that there are a lot of cool things in L7, which would really shine having the game to be less clumsy and more meaningful-objective / narrative-for-both-sides oriented.
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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spadovsky wrote:
shnar wrote:
Interesting. What I found as a strength in the game especially when compared to other games like Doom/Descent, that being the strategic choices for the Overseer, you're seeing as a weakness. If the Commandos are working together and are good, just sending in swarms of Clones is not as effective as it sounds. Check out the PBF I'm currently playing for a good example of this, at PBF: Mission 3, Party Time.

I agree with Heath too. I've used the Cave-In dashboard at least once in every game that's had it. Since I'm able to setup the rooms so that I know the Commandos will have to march through the rubble, the 10 Adrenaline seems well worth it (4 Commandos having to spend at least 2 extra adrenaline each if not more, that's 8 Adrenaline plus the free attacks. Worth it!).

I had to check it again with rules because you seem so convinced about the strength of caving in, but the only thing that rubble does is making it necessary to spend 1 movement point more for leaving it. that's 2 movement point in total for the two things, which costs 10 adrenaline. we found it not worth it.

Look at the Dashboard. Rubble does only cost and extra adrenaline to use, but the Cave-In also causes a 3 strength melee attack against all adjacent figures. My calculations are due to it costing 10 Adrenaline. I use it on areas where I think the commandos are going to walk through at least twice (i.e. there and back again), and in a 4 Commando game, that would be an additional 8 Adrenaline, almost covering the cost of the ability. The 4 free attacks push it over the top for making it worth it.

Quote:
But I didn't want to get all negative with my review, so I will stress the fact, that there are a lot of cool things in L7, which would really shine having the game to be less clumsy and more meaningful-objective / narrative-for-both-sides oriented.

Understood. If anything, I love that the mechanics allow for that, so perhaps in a future expansion we could see more narrative in the Room cards. Or what I really want to see is the mechanics of this game morphed into a true dungeon crawl and set in a fantasy setting...

-shnar
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Artur Salwarowski
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Yeah, so tedious... Just as much as Battlefield is tiresome because you simply go around and shoot guys all day How boring...

And yes, I agree with Shnar regarding the cave-in being VERY strong as not only does it work as a melee attack, but also ignores ALL defensive modifiers (drones, abilities, etc.).

Regarding MoM, on the other hand, that game is so fascinating to first set up for two hours only to realize that the scenario is broken and the whole thing a complete waste of time.

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Mark Mitchell
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spadovsky wrote:
this is a very short review mentioning three aspects of the game, which in order made me excited enough to get the game and become dissapointed.

the good: L7:OP is an advanture boardgame (the so-called dungeon-crawler) but with tactics - I love the rules for gaining cover, different abilities covering several spaces from a leading character, and commiting-refreshing mechanism for the aliens. all this makes the game stand out. another thing, every marine matters because of their special abilities, so no-one would probably feel unimportant to the mission.

the so-so: after playing for the first time I realized that the game implements the above-mentioned mechanisms in a clumsy way. every alien if it activates can move (very fast) and approach a carachter having a cover and hit him without considering that cover. the bad guys have all the options but some of them were never used in our games for the reason of its cost. maybe we lucked finesse but hitting hard with ten clones was more profitable than bringing rumble on. latly, the rules are missing directives as to how should bigger miniatures (fear hunters) move(!)

the bad: it appears that L7:OP has not learnt its lesson from Descent, where the upgrade between the first and the second version was to move the bad guy's objective from just killing the heroes into participating in the story. in this game, alins need to kill marines, there are some rules that marines cannot be killed totally before the crisis point, but that doesn't change the fact that all their forces will be launched at the marines making their progress an annoying process, which I got after more complex scenarios.

maybe all of these are what an adventure-game players look for but me.. I look at all the potential that could make this game great. I am still looking for a fun (bor all sides) tactical-centered light adventure miniatures game. L7:OP, in my opinion, isn't the one.


I don't think this review is accurate or fair.

Let me explain some things. Cover only effects ranged attacks not melee, this for me makes complete sense. Just because my back is against a wall thus wouldn't help in hand to hand combat.

Yes the aliens should move fast but with the equivalent of opp fire built into the game just rushing really isn't the best idea sometimes. A sensible strategy is to block and gather creatures around strategically important areas and with ranged creatures the last thing you want to do is rush. Your main tactic should be initially to slow and wear down the players so you can strike after the crisis point.


If you thought this was a dungeon crawl your wrong. It's a tactical one vs many game more like Space Hulk or Claustrophobia.

2 Scenarios offer alternative targets for the overseer to win but to be honest killing the marines is good enough for most missions. I'm sure more variety will come out as the game evolves, it's ripe for expansion.

Large miniatures move the same as small ones, it's easy I can't see a problem.

Also ceiling collapse is great when your spawn powers are on cooldown and you have too much adrenaline.

This 'review' is pretty weak to be honest. I'm not die hard L7OP fan but please get your facts straight.
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mks
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gamecat_uk wrote:
spadovsky wrote:
this is a very short review mentioning three aspects of the game, which in order made me excited enough to get the game and become dissapointed.

the good: L7:OP is an advanture boardgame (the so-called dungeon-crawler) but with tactics - I love the rules for gaining cover, different abilities covering several spaces from a leading character, and commiting-refreshing mechanism for the aliens. all this makes the game stand out. another thing, every marine matters because of their special abilities, so no-one would probably feel unimportant to the mission.

the so-so: after playing for the first time I realized that the game implements the above-mentioned mechanisms in a clumsy way. every alien if it activates can move (very fast) and approach a carachter having a cover and hit him without considering that cover. the bad guys have all the options but some of them were never used in our games for the reason of its cost. maybe we lucked finesse but hitting hard with ten clones was more profitable than bringing rumble on. latly, the rules are missing directives as to how should bigger miniatures (fear hunters) move(!)

the bad: it appears that L7:OP has not learnt its lesson from Descent, where the upgrade between the first and the second version was to move the bad guy's objective from just killing the heroes into participating in the story. in this game, alins need to kill marines, there are some rules that marines cannot be killed totally before the crisis point, but that doesn't change the fact that all their forces will be launched at the marines making their progress an annoying process, which I got after more complex scenarios.

maybe all of these are what an adventure-game players look for but me.. I look at all the potential that could make this game great. I am still looking for a fun (bor all sides) tactical-centered light adventure miniatures game. L7:OP, in my opinion, isn't the one.


I don't think this review is accurate or fair.

Thanks for reading it though.

gamecat_uk wrote:
Let me explain some things. Cover only effects ranged attacks not melee, this for me makes complete sense. Just because my back is against a wall thus wouldn't help in hand to hand combat.

I totally agree. This is new and opening possibilites for tactical play. So?

gamecat_uk wrote:
Yes the aliens should move fast but with the equivalent of opp fire built into the game just rushing really isn't the best idea sometimes. A sensible strategy is to block and gather creatures around strategically important areas and with ranged creatures the last thing you want to do is rush. Your main tactic should be initially to slow and wear down the players so you can strike after the crisis point.

Agreed once again. I just don't consider wearing down players fun (for neither side).

gamecat_uk wrote:
If you thought this was a dungeon crawl your wrong. It's a tactical one vs many game more like Space Hulk or Claustrophobia.

2 Scenarios offer alternative targets for the overseer to win but to be honest killing the marines is good enough for most missions. I'm sure more variety will come out as the game evolves, it's ripe for expansion.

And another one. I would love to see this game taken with expansions to the level some of the good ideas in it deserve.

gamecat_uk wrote:
Large miniatures move the same as small ones, it's easy I can't see a problem.

That's simple: do they move one square by one square, or two by two?

gamecat_uk wrote:
Also ceiling collapse is great when your spawn powers are on cooldown and you have too much adrenaline.

I consider it a great story-generating effect, which I'd love to see more, by hardly effective.

gamecat_uk wrote:
This 'review' is pretty weak to be honest. I'm not due hard L7OP fan but please get your facts straight.

I'm not a L7OP unfan, but I'd like to warn those who fell in love with it just from fans' reviews.
 
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Mark Mitchell
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Regarding Large Miniatures:

The Speed stat indicates the number of movement points a figure or
marker has available each time it takes a move action. Moving into an
adjacent space costs one movement point.

Why would it move 2 spaces? Just because its base takes up 2 spaces does not double its move speed.

The ceiling collapsing isn't a 'Story Effect' its an important way to deal damage and slow the marines down espeically if you have no spawn actions available.
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Mr G
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shnar wrote:
what I really want to see is the mechanics of this game morphed into a true dungeon crawl and set in a fantasy setting...

-shnar


YES PLEASE

I just encountered this game yesterday, bought it today and can't stop thinking how it would feel with stances for 'barbarians', 'knights', 'wizards', etc. Hordes of kobolds.

I might have to crack out all those comparison games form Shnar's review and home brew something.
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Luke Hector
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Muttah wrote:
Yeah, so tedious... Just as much as Battlefield is tiresome because you simply go around and shoot guys all day How boring...

And yes, I agree with Shnar regarding the cave-in being VERY strong as not only does it work as a melee attack, but also ignores ALL defensive modifiers (drones, abilities, etc.).

Regarding MoM, on the other hand, that game is so fascinating to first set up for two hours only to realize that the scenario is broken and the whole thing a complete waste of time.



Lol re: MoM, I had a similar feeling when I was shown the game, it went along those lines as well!
 
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