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Subject: GRNDL + Elizabeth Mills... not all that great? rss

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Scott
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Preface: if you think the correct way to play GRNDL is to never remove BP, then this post is probably moot for you. And in any event, you might agree somewhat with my point.

Basically, is using Liz Mills to remove the GRNDL's bad pub at all worth it?

If this is a good move, then it's probably something you'll want to do on your first couple of turns. (On this point I may be wrong, if the correct way to play GRNDL is to get a big head start by building on the initial $10 and remove BP mid-game.)

Let's say you had Liz in your starting hand and you did it first turn...

Start with $10 - spend a @ to install Liz; Rez Liz for $2; remove a BP. End with 2@ remaining and $8.

Making this play essentially turns the GRNDL's ability into - depending on how you like to calculate clicks and credits - either...
1) "GRNDL starts the game with $8 and one less @" or...
2) "GRNDL starts the game with $7"

Neither of these abilities sound all that great, especially including the lowered influence.
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Ben Finkel
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I would think that you'd only want to remove the bad publicity once it starts being relevant. Until the runner has appropriate breakers or a way to exploit mid-run credits, bad publicity doesn't harm you significantly, particularly if you don't use trace ICE or upgrades, use easily trashed assets or upgrades, or rely on Pop-Up Window, Datapike, or other credit-costing cards.
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Tim Silver
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If you are removing the BP many turns before the runner is benefiting from it, then you're doing it wrong. The better first click play would be Restructuring.
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Gregory Pettigrew
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With Geothermal Fracking and Hostile Takeover likely in the deck, you'll probably want Elizabeth Mills anyway. The trick, as others have stated, is to use her when relevant to keep BP at a level high enough the Runner wants to run (and get Tagged) but low enough that your Servers aren't wide open.
 
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Grant Cain
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Yeah, this is more of a Weyland Tag and Bag Deck than any other and that's great. This ID makes tag and bag MORE taggy and baggy by giving this bonus to credits and telling the runner to run. I'd almost say this is NOT where Mills belongs because she is more long term goals rather than immediate win from flatline.
 
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Ony Moose
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The idea is you use Liz to remote your BadPub when the runner installs a location you wish to trash anyway, then you are sitting on 1 bp after using Liz, which you would be if you weren't GRNDL anyway. There isn't much point just installing and rezzing her to remove the bp on your opening turn.
 
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Alex Rockwell
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If your goal is to end up with no bad publicity, Core Weyland + Beanstalk Royalties gives a better result. GRNDL does have the benefit of allowing automatic turn 1 Restructure, by I havent found it at all difficult to play Restructure in Core Weyland.


If you choose GRNDL as your ID, I think it should be because your strategy doesnt care about bad publicity at all. The plugged in tour deck was an example of this, where it basically said: Hey, I'll give you a bad publicity, come run me! And then if you did, you got killed by Punitive Counterstrikes and stuff. The extra initial $5 was useful for helping to guarantee that they could Sea/Scorch, Midseason/Scorch, Counterstrike, etc, you to death.
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Aaron Freeman
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Alexfrog wrote:
...If you choose GRNDL as your ID, I think it should be because your strategy doesnt care about bad publicity at all.


And I think this is the heart of it. Pre Second Thoughts, I thought of Bad Publicity as such a hindrance to play that corps would do anything they could to negate it.

Now, I see corp decks beginning to emerge that do not really care about bad publicity, so long as you can make it count. Decks that break the usual play style of steady play or fast advance might see a new burst coup-de-grace corp style compete with them. Profiteering/Corporate Troubleshooter has already created an interesting dichotomy in my meta.

This is an interesting new approach to deck design that I look forward to seeing in the future. I now can begin to understand why cards like Blackmail and Terrie Perault will see play. Bad Publicity can be detrimental, but against an experienced opponent who knows when to pull the trigger and go all in, this could be the start of something all new.

Anyway, just my experiences with Profiteering. Seriously, that card put Second Thoughts over the bar for me.
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Andrew Keddie
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StarSix wrote:
Bad Publicity can be detrimental, but against an experienced opponent who knows when to pull the trigger and go all in, this could be the start of something all new.


I think this is great - if people start playing BP the way we see Tag-me decks get played (which is to say, keep loading it up because at this point in the game I DON'T CARE) then that will indeed be an excellent shift for the metagame.
 
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j n
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Yeah, you shouldn't be playing Elizabeth Mills, or probably any card, for the BP removal. The option to remove BP should be considered gravy, not meat.

Play Mills if you want to destroy locations. Play Clone Retirement if you want a 2/1 in your Jinteki deck. Play Rex Campaign if you want a shorter-term/lower investment Adonis.
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Steven
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CommissarFeesh wrote:
StarSix wrote:
Bad Publicity can be detrimental, but against an experienced opponent who knows when to pull the trigger and go all in, this could be the start of something all new.


I think this is great - if people start playing BP the way we see Tag-me decks get played (which is to say, keep loading it up because at this point in the game I DON'T CARE) then that will indeed be an excellent shift for the metagame.


I think this might work until runners get their hands on Blackmail.

Then again, a deck based around SEA Source, Punitive Counterstrike, and Scorched might not care, but what if you don't draw your combo right away?

EDIT: Added more
 
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Aaron Freeman
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The two deck types I have seen use the gains from bad publicity to immediately push through biotic labors/san sans, to do horrendous meat damage or to have more money that the opponent so they can perform a troubleshooter on a piece of program destroying ice.

Blackmail would only really hinder one of those combos! Its a powerful card, but I tend not to pull the trigger until later on in my game anyway. It will hurt GRNDL early game though. Other factions/IDs won't feel the pinch until later.
 
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Daniel D
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CommissarFeesh wrote:
StarSix wrote:
Bad Publicity can be detrimental, but against an experienced opponent who knows when to pull the trigger and go all in, this could be the start of something all new.


I think this is great - if people start playing BP the way we see Tag-me decks get played (which is to say, keep loading it up because at this point in the game I DON'T CARE) then that will indeed be an excellent shift for the metagame.


The major difference between a TagMe deck and an AllBadPubAllTheTime deck is that you can sculpt a runner deck to put the onus on the corp to have a way to hurt your tags fairly easily. If you run virtually resourceless (only using Same Old Thing, Bank Job, etc...) then the corp has to have punishment or you get off scot-free. Bad Pub is inherently dangerous as long as the runner runs. I suppose you could sculpt your deck to be ICE-less and untrashable but that's a lot more dangerous to your game than a runner not using resources.
 
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Frederic Bush
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SW_Cygnus wrote:
CommissarFeesh wrote:
StarSix wrote:
Bad Publicity can be detrimental, but against an experienced opponent who knows when to pull the trigger and go all in, this could be the start of something all new.


I think this is great - if people start playing BP the way we see Tag-me decks get played (which is to say, keep loading it up because at this point in the game I DON'T CARE) then that will indeed be an excellent shift for the metagame.


I think this might work until runners get their hands on Blackmail.

EDIT: Added more


Snitch + Snitch + Snitch + Blackguard + Blackmail
 
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wrathofmine
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fbush555 wrote:
Snitch + Snitch + Snitch + Blackguard + Blackmail


Looks like the perfect nombo to me.

-> expose ice. You must rez it if able, oh, you can't because of blackmail, ok next ice.

or I'm missing something ?
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Frederic Bush
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wrathofmine wrote:
fbush555 wrote:
Snitch + Snitch + Snitch + Blackguard + Blackmail


Looks like the perfect nombo to me.

-> expose ice. You must rez it if able, oh, you can't because of blackmail, ok next ice.

or I'm missing something ?


Whoops! Indeed you are not. I was thinking Blackguard had the same text as Forged Activation Orders and obviously it doesn't.

 
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Steven Tu
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Perfect counter to Blackmail already exists. Enter Amazon Industrial Zone! how interesting

In fact it counters running interference too, another seemingly insane card. Maybe that woodcutter/tyrant deck's time is coming
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Ben Finkel
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Tuism wrote:
Perfect counter to Blackmail already exists. Enter Amazon Industrial Zone! how interesting

In fact it counters running interference too, another seemingly insane card. Maybe that woodcutter/tyrant deck's time is coming


More like Oversight AI / Bioroid Efficiency Research.
 
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mathew rynich
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People tend to over simplify things. GRNDL allows you to start the game as a larger threat. You don't need to worry about drawing any econ cards early. You use that money to rez ice and/or trip traps to keep the runner out. At the start of the game BP usually isn't as helpful for the runner. Later when Mills comes up she can take it out once the runner can use the BP to good effect. Even before that Mills is an asset that you can use to bait the runner into making a wasted run just to rez her and remove the BP to good effect.

She definitely can belong in a GRNDL deck. You can't just do an x-y = d analysis here. All those plays listed above effect the tempo of the game. Yeah core Weyland will get you more money throughout an average game length, but you won't get that lump sum in the beginning of the game, which is very significant and you aren't garunteed you'll see all your transaction operations before the game ends.
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Rob Jennings
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Dovian wrote:


The major difference between a TagMe deck and an AllBadPubAllTheTime deck is that you can sculpt a runner deck to put the onus on the corp to have a way to hurt your tags fairly easily. If you run virtually resourceless (only using Same Old Thing, Bank Job, etc...) then the corp has to have punishment or you get off scot-free. Bad Pub is inherently dangerous as long as the runner runs. I suppose you could sculpt your deck to be ICE-less and untrashable but that's a lot more dangerous to your game than a runner not using resources.


Bad publicity is only dangerous as long as the cost of running for the runner is credits. This is usually, but not always, the case.

For instance, if all you have are low str ETR ice, lie Ice Wall, NEXT Bronze, and rototurret then once they have breakers out, the cost is negligible anyway. If they use crypsis, then the main cost is clicks to charge crypsis, which BP doesn't help with, but once the traditional breakers are out, they're in for free. On the other hand, they need breakers, so if your BP gave you enough tempo to build up an overpowering lead while the runner got his breakers out, then the cost is really mitigated.

Another example is bioroids. Even with one or two BP, the cost of breaking bioroids with breakers can be absurdly high compared with the cost of clicking through. If the runner is clicking through anyway, the BP isn't hurting, so in a heavy bioroid deck, you could take a couple of BP without it hurting you too much, assuming it gave you enough tempo.
 
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Daniel D
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sechen_rob wrote:
Dovian wrote:


The major difference between a TagMe deck and an AllBadPubAllTheTime deck is that you can sculpt a runner deck to put the onus on the corp to have a way to hurt your tags fairly easily. If you run virtually resourceless (only using Same Old Thing, Bank Job, etc...) then the corp has to have punishment or you get off scot-free. Bad Pub is inherently dangerous as long as the runner runs. I suppose you could sculpt your deck to be ICE-less and untrashable but that's a lot more dangerous to your game than a runner not using resources.


Bad publicity is only dangerous as long as the cost of running for the runner is credits. This is usually, but not always, the case.

For instance, if all you have are low str ETR ice, lie Ice Wall, NEXT Bronze, and rototurret then once they have breakers out, the cost is negligible anyway. If they use crypsis, then the main cost is clicks to charge crypsis, which BP doesn't help with, but once the traditional breakers are out, they're in for free. On the other hand, they need breakers, so if your BP gave you enough tempo to build up an overpowering lead while the runner got his breakers out, then the cost is really mitigated.

Another example is bioroids. Even with one or two BP, the cost of breaking bioroids with breakers can be absurdly high compared with the cost of clicking through. If the runner is clicking through anyway, the BP isn't hurting, so in a heavy bioroid deck, you could take a couple of BP without it hurting you too much, assuming it gave you enough tempo.


The issue with the first example (low cost ICE) is that you've now turned "low" into "free" which is a significant difference. In your example those three ICE would cost 4 to get through (assuming no Yog), if you score one Profiteering for full value then they can run that server 4x as much (with a Yog it's a free run now). Or they can run it the same amount and rather than spending extra money on breaking they can significantly accelerate the pace at which the bring out lock cards like RDI or access tricks for other servers. Crypsis is a click-sink (which is why very few use him for anything other than emergencies), but he's also a big credit sink (darn 0 str) so BP helps him immensely there. As a frequent user of Bioroids I can tell you that they're not often broken by clicks in the middle-late stages of the game unless it's an emergency. Even still you're giving them even greater reason to not break with clicks when you give them BP credits to use. In every interaction between BP and ICE you've given the runner long-term speed so you can get a short term boost.

This is also ignoring the side-benefits BP provides depending on the cards both you and the runner are using. If you have any kind of asset/upgrade/agenda that costs money to trash/steal you've now reduced that cost with any leftover BP. If you run trace ICE the runner essentially has more link for free. If the runner uses SMC, Personal Workshop, Net Shield, or any other card that's able to trigger during a run you've suddenly given them a huge advantage.


I'm not saying it's impossible to use BP well, just that you have to construct your deck in the proper way. That means it needs to be fast so the extra momentum you gave the runner never amounts to enough to beat you. If those 15 credits means you can rez a SanSan with a Hadrian's or something nasty in front then more power to you. But if the Agendas don't come early and often then the Runner is going to go wild over your servers, and trash that SanSan for cheap.
 
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Allan Clements
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Tuism wrote:
Perfect counter to Blackmail already exists. Enter Amazon Industrial Zone! how interesting

In fact it counters running interference too, another seemingly insane card. Maybe that woodcutter/tyrant deck's time is coming


More people should play AZI. It is basically a Weyland Adonis campaign.
 
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Andrew Keddie
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Kamakaze wrote:
Tuism wrote:
Perfect counter to Blackmail already exists. Enter Amazon Industrial Zone! how interesting

In fact it counters running interference too, another seemingly insane card. Maybe that woodcutter/tyrant deck's time is coming


More people should play AZI. It is basically a Weyland Adonis campaign.


I like AIZ! It's for decks which aren't so bothered about every ICE being a surprise. AIZ rezzing Hadrians before advancing it once or twice makes for a very expensive Barrier, and you got it at a discount

And the much-maligned Tyrant - when you have Tyrant and Ice Wall on a server, and the runner pops a Femme to get past your heavily advanced IW, adding more Subs to Tyrant actually works to impose a decent tax on the runner (which a second or re-targeted Femme doesn't help with, as it bypasses by number of subs).
 
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