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Subject: Prayer Chamber Question rss

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Galen Brownsmith
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The wording on (the English version of) Prayer Chamber is rather odd.
Quote:
At the end of the game, +8 Points if none of your Dwarves has a Weapon when scoring this tile


By my reading of the tile, it looks like you could score Weapon Storage and/or the Supplies Storage for having (all) armed dwarves, and then use the Peaceful Cave to covert those weapons into food, and score the Prayer chamber.

It, admittedly, is a a convoluted 3-or-4 tile combination, but it seems to be legal.

The question is: Is this the intended impact?
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James Mathias
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marphod wrote:
The wording on (the English version of) Prayer Chamber is rather odd.
Quote:
At the end of the game, +8 Points if none of your Dwarves has a Weapon when scoring this tile


By my reading of the tile, it looks like you could score Weapon Storage and/or the Supplies Storage for having (all) armed dwarves, and then use the Peaceful Cave to covert those weapons into food, and score the Prayer chamber.

It, admittedly, is a a convoluted 3-or-4 tile combination, but it seems to be legal.

The question is: Is this the intended impact?


Only Uwe could answer if he intended that, but what you have described sounds legal to me, as you score your tiles in whatever order you see fit.
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Dave K
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My understanding is by the time you're in final scoring it's too late to use the peaceful cave to get rid of the weapons you already have (as it's now final scoring and no players can do anything anymore).
 
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Galen Brownsmith
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Happymrdave wrote:
My understanding is by the time you're in final scoring it's too late to use the peaceful cave to get rid of the weapons you already have (as it's now final scoring and no players can do anything anymore).


I'd have assumed that, but iuf that's the case, then either Peaceful Cave should have the Any time before scoring' restriction that are on other tiles. The Trader, Hunting Parlor, and Blacksmithing Parlor make me assume it goes the other way.
 
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Patrick McIntyre
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marphod wrote:
Happymrdave wrote:
My understanding is by the time you're in final scoring it's too late to use the peaceful cave to get rid of the weapons you already have (as it's now final scoring and no players can do anything anymore).


I'd have assumed that, but iuf that's the case, then either Peaceful Cave should have the Any time before scoring' restriction that are on other tiles. The Trader, Hunting Parlor, and Blacksmithing Parlor make me assume it goes the other way.


According to the rules:
Quote:
Bonus points for the Hunting parlor, Beer parlor, Blacksmithing parlor and Spare part storage are not awarded as “Bonus points” on the scoring pad. These tiles allow you to exchange goods for Gold before scoring. (If you forgot to do so but notice it just before scoring, you may still do it.)


So my take is that using Peaceful Cave during scoring would be against the spirit of rules, even if the tile doesn't explicitly say so. I am still interested in hearing what Uwe has to say.
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Ricky Boyes
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I would argue that there is no "time" during final scoring. The reason all the various "point conversion" tiles say "anytime before scoring" is because you can't do anything during scoring. Scoring is just a final snapshot of the game during which nothing can change. You can do things between the end of Round 12's breeding phase and the start of scoring but once you move to scoring you are "locked in". This wasn't true in Agricola but I believe it is currently true in Caverna and that's a good thing as Agricola had a lot of ambiguity about what you could do at the end of the game.

EDIT:Even if you can use Peaceful Cave "during scoring" there should be no way for the combo to work as the bonuses from Weapon Storage/Supplies Storage/Prayer Chamber are scored at the exact same instant, not sequentially.
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Marcus Boyce
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itsaratio wrote:

EDIT:Even if you can use Peaceful Cave "during scoring" there should be no way for the combo to work as the bonuses from Weapon Storage/Supplies Storage/Prayer Chamber are scored at the exact same instant, not sequentially.


Pretty much this. End game scoring isn't done sequentially. All points are awarded simultaneously, however because we are humans and not machines we run through the score pad in a sequential order but that has no bearing on the actually triggering of tiles for scoring.
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James Mathias
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No where in the rules does it say or imply that points or scoring is awarded instantly and simultaneously. In fact the rules and setup of the scoring pad imply that the scoring takes place in a sequential and stepped through order.

In the Game Appendix on page A4

The rules for Peaceful cave are:

Quote:
Peaceful Cave
(Building costs: 2 Wood, 2 Stone: Worth 2 Gold points)
At any time, you can trade the Weapons of your Dwarfs for Food. You get a number of Food equal to the strength of the Weapon you trade in. You can trade multiple Weapons at the same time or at different points in time. (For instance, if you traded in a weapon of strength 14, you would get 14 food from the general supply. The Peaceful cave irks well with the Prayer chamber.)


It specifically mentions the Prayer chamber, it also allows the trade to happen at any time. Which is markedly different than any time before scoring, which also exists in this game. If there was a blanket, nothing can happen during scoring rule, which I cannot find, then the phrase any time before scoring would not have to exist in the game.

In the Game Appendix on page A5

The rules for the Prayer chamber are:

Quote:
Prayer chamber
(Building costs: 1 Wood)
When scoring, the Prayer chamber will be worth 8 bonus points if none of your Dwarfs that are in play have a Weapon. (You can use the Peaceful cave to trade the Weapons of your Dwarfs for food. This way,you can get rid of the Weapons of all of your Dwarfs and get the 8 bonus points for the Prayer chamber if you own that one as well.)


It specifically mentions using the Peaceful cave to do exactly what the OP was asking.

I'd say that this was the specific intention of the phrasing on the Prayer chamber tile of when scoring this tile, this also lends to the implied sequential scoring, if all tiles scored at the same moment, then this tile would not require the phrase when scoring this tile, as that would never happen individually.
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Dok Indigo
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jmathias wrote:
It specifically mentions using the Peaceful cave to do exactly what the OP was asking.

I'd say that this was the specific intention of the phrasing on the Prayer chamber tile of when scoring this tile, this also lends to the implied sequential scoring, if all tiles scored at the same moment, then this tile would not require the phrase when scoring this tile, as that would never happen individually.

It mentions, that you can use the Peaceful cave to get rid of your food and score the Prayer chamber.

It does not mention that you can first score the Weapons room.

So the question of the OP is still not answered.

You are right that it does not say in the rules that points for rooms are awarded instantly and simultaneously.

No where in the rules does it say that there is an order in which buildings have to be scored and no where does it say that you are free to score them in any order.

The only argument for the combo of scoring weapons room, getting rid of food, then scoring prayer chamber is that some cards read "any time beforde scoring".

That phrase (any time beforde scoring) is only used on cards that allow to change ressources that are worth points for other ressources that are worth points. So it was necessary to put that phrase on those cards. It does not imply that it has been left out on purpose on peaceful cave, because peaceful cave does not allow to change ressources that are worth points to other ressources (without 2 other buildings).

My gut feeling is that scoring happens simultaneously.
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Marcus Boyce
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jmathias wrote:
No where in the rules does it say or imply that points or scoring is awarded instantly and simultaneously. In fact the rules and setup of the scoring pad imply that the scoring takes place in a sequential and stepped through order.


The order is stepped through simply because it would be very difficult for most people to work out the final score without a step-by-step process. I've not yet come across any game where something other than scoring can be done in the scoring phase - the game has ended at that point.

At any time would allow you to turn weapons into food right before the final harvest, allowing you to feed your family and then when the game ends (after the final harvest) this allows you to score the Prayer Chamber. Food isn't worth anything so using the Peaceful Cave wouldn't get you anything (other than being allowed to score the Prayer Chamber) if you could use it when the game as ended and scoring starts.

Hexendoktor wrote:


That phrase (any time beforde scoring) is only used on cards that allow to change ressources that are worth points for other ressources that are worth points. So it was necessary to put that phrase on those cards. It does not imply that it has been left out on purpose on peaceful cave, because peaceful cave does not allow to change ressources that are worth points to other ressources (without 2 other buildings).

My gut feeling is that scoring happens simultaneously.


Yeah the "At any time" and "At any time before scoring" are there to clarify the two district types (and why it's not on the Peaceful Chamber as food isn't worth any points during scoring)

Logic in my case not my gut tells me that scoring happens simultaneously as otherwise rules would be needed to say what the actual order is, say because you could score buildings in a specific order. As I said above though, scoring is at the end of the game - you've finished at that point and are just figuring out who won and who lost.
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Marcus Boyce
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egamar wrote:

"Prayer chamber: When scoring, the Prayer chamber will be worth 8 Bonus points if none of your Dwarfs that are in play have a Weapon. (You can use the Peaceful cave to trade the Weapons of your Dwarfs for Food. This way, you can get rid of the Weapons of all of your Dwarfs and get the 8 Bonus points for the Prayerchamber if you own that one as well.)"

I have to say that altho I lean heavily towards Marcus' position, the reading of the above is forcing me over towards James.


As long as when people play the game they're all playing by the same guidance (I.e can use Peaceful Chamber during scoring) then it doesn't matter what of the two possible options are used.

I still think nothing but scoring happens during scoring (and the fact that Peaceful Chamber makes food that you can't use during scoring reenforces this for me) but that doesn't mean I'm correct and others aren't.

Perhaps an errata from Lookout will answer this question for once and all. Until then play in the way that fits you and your group the best. I won't be letting my wife use the Peaceful Cave during scoring (but I need all the help I can get when playing games with her, especially Uwe Rosenberg's games. She just destroyed me again at Le Havre)
 
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egamar wrote:
From the Appendix:

"The “Cooking cave” and the “Peaceful cave” provide a special ability that you can use “at any time”. A lot of other Furnishing tiles have special abilities that can only be used “at any time before scoring”. This constraint is important as these Furnishing tiles allow you to exchange goods for Gold. Without this constraint, you could get points for goods first (e.g. with the Fodder chamber) and then exchange them for Gold to get even more points (e.g. with the Hunting parlor) – which is not allowed."

I think that this is really the key thing here. Unfortunately, I think that the text admits both interpretations.

It states that many tiles would, if their actions were allowed during scoring, allow some undesired benefit (gain points before and after conversion). It also specifies that that reasoning applies to the tiles whose power says “at any time before scoring” (and specifically not "Peaceful cave").

One way to interpret this is to say that a player can use "Cooking cave" and the "Peaceful cave" to gain points before and after conversion (but there's no way to do with with "Cooking cave"). It's clearly an exception to the more general prohibition.

Alternatively, one could say that the designer intended that being able to gain points before and after conversion should be generally illegal. He excluded "Cooking cave" because it allows a conversion into something (food) for which you can't score points at the end. The same is true for "Peaceful cave" - it gives you food and there are no points for food. It's possible that he called out "Peaceful cave" because he neglected to consider that ridding your Dwarfs of weapons could gain scoring via "Prayer chamber".

My thinking is that the latter interpretation is more likely what was intended, but we'd really need to hear from someone on the design team to know for certain.
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Marcus Boyce
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egamar wrote:

That's my position too, which is why I'm having a problem deciding which of the two alternatives is "right".


I've not yet played a game where you can do anything but score during the end of game scoring.
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lordsplodge wrote:
I've not yet played a game where you can do anything but score during the end of game scoring.

The more I think about it, the more this sounds right to me.

In most games, you play till the end. When you get to the end, you look at the current position - pieces on the board, cards in hand, scoring tokens already acquired, etc. - and you compute scores.

The computation of scores in most games is just a (mathematical) function of the final position. It's isn't usually a process that changes the final position. There may be end-game activities that can change the final position, but they still precede scoring.

I think that this is what the designer meant when he wrote "you could get points for goods first and then exchange them ... to get even more points – which is not allowed."

I believe that the exclusion of the "Peaceful cave" was just an oversight that occurred because that tile doesn't allow you to gain something that scores points (but it lets you get rid of something that could prevent you from scoring points).
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Kyle Mechler
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I have a hard time imagining scoring not being something that is an evaluation of your finished state. If we took this to mean that changes are allowed during scoring because it says "at any time," then can't I use Stone Breaker between "Clay hut rooms" and "Stone house rooms" in Agricola, too? Is the distinction simply that it doesn't say "before scoring?" I see the example in the book, but I find it hard to believe that it is meant to score you for being well equipped AND for eschewing equipment entirely. It isn't just thematically ugly, it's bad for gameplay.

I certainly see both sides of the argument, here. There are good points from the manual, for example, that seem to suggest this. It seems that it must've been a bit of an error in translation. I simply cannot fathom it being intended to allow for changes mid-scoring that would impact the score.

Such oversights are possible and forgivable in a game with this kind of complexity, (see: Trader, Seam, Spare part storage) but it would make a world of a difference for an official answer on the matter.
 
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Grzegorz Kobiela
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We've discussed this issue. This is our official standpoint on the matter: You may not do anything anymore during the scoring. Scoring is static, you evaluate your final game state. If you wish to change something, do this before scoring. Just declare that you wish to do so and the other players are required to wait with the scoring.

So, you can't get points for your weapons, then eat them and get points for the Prayer Chamber.
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James Mathias
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Ponton wrote:
We've discussed this issue. This is our official standpoint on the matter: You may not do anything anymore during the scoring. Scoring is static, you evaluate your final game state. If you wish to change something, do this before scoring. Just declare that you wish to do so and the other players are required to wait with the scoring.

So, you can't get points for your weapons, then eat them and get points for the Prayer Chamber.


Fair enough, thanks for an official answer on this.
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Marcus Boyce
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Ponton wrote:
We've discussed this issue. This is our official standpoint on the matter: You may not do anything anymore during the scoring. Scoring is static, you evaluate your final game state. If you wish to change something, do this before scoring. Just declare that you wish to do so and the other players are required to wait with the scoring.

So, you can't get points for your weapons, then eat them and get points for the Prayer Chamber.


Logically sensible and good to have an official answer.
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Jacek Deimer
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Ponton wrote:
We've discussed this issue. This is our official standpoint on the matter: You may not do anything anymore during the scoring. Scoring is static, you evaluate your final game state. If you wish to change something, do this before scoring. Just declare that you wish to do so and the other players are required to wait with the scoring.

So, you can't get points for your weapons, then eat them and get points for the Prayer Chamber.


Great to have this clarified!
I really apreciate all the effort you make when communicating with players!
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Galen Brownsmith
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I'm just echoing the rest, but as the original poster, I'd also like to thank you for the answer. =)
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