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Subject: Traitor Templars seem to have a lot of vital information... rss

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So it seems to me that Traitor Templars are capable of, well, ruining the game. Perhaps I have missed a crucial point in the rules, so maybe someone can set me straight. I realise that the rules are not necessarily finalised, which is what spurred me to comment on it now.

The spirit of the game can possibly be crushed by a certain group-think that could emerge. If one Traitor Templar right from the beginning announces, "I am a Traitor Templar. That is the Grand Master", and points out the Grand Master, it is going to be a very difficult allegation to refute. Especially if it happens every single round in the same manner.

You could try to find an in-game way of combatting this, but it will only ever look like a desperate counter-measure fired off in response to the wild assertion (and that's assuming you are quick enough to act on the spot!): A Templar could lie in response and say, "No! *I* am the Traitor and *this* is the Grand Master!" and point to another Templar. The problem with this is that it's extremely weak making an allegation like that second to the Traitor Templars assertion.

A further in game method to combat this (and this is after that particular strategy has ruined your game a few times already) is to have the Templars get "gamey" (ungh). Now, all Templars at the start of the game need to ALL say "I am a traitor and that is the Grand Master" and just point at random Templars to cause enough confusion to stop the actual Traitor from boldly and truthfully making that claim, because everyone is seeming to do the same thing.

Another way to fix this would be to have something in the rules that prevents players from doing this. This has the benefit of eliminating a degree of group-think and not forcing you to get gamey, but at the cost of flexibility to the player.

The other class roles do not seem to have this ability (obviously Monks/Archivist can lie about what they discover during the game: that is the point of the game! But I'm talking about spoiling the game from known information before the game has really commenced).

- The King doesn't know who anyone is, and everyone knows who he is.
- The Monks can declare themselves Monks for no effect(already known).
- The Templars can declare themselves as Templars for no effect (already known), or reveal the Grand Master (but doing so will have little strategic value).
- The Grand Master can reveal himself, or reveal the Archivist (but doing so will have little strategic value).
- The Archivist can reveal himself, or reveal the Grand Master (but doing so will have little strategic value).

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

(edit: Altered the title of this thread to appear less… negative. That wasn't really the intention here)
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Seth Jaffee
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Re: Traitor Templars seem to have the ability to break the game?
I think this is not different than Werewolf, or Covert Action, or any other game of this type.
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Sean McCarthy
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Re: Traitor Templars seem to have the ability to break the game?
vip_chicken wrote:
The spirit of the game can possibly be crushed by a certain group-think that could emerge. If one Traitor Templar right from the beginning announces, "I am a Traitor Templar. That is the Grand Master", and points out the Grand Master, it is going to be a very difficult allegation to refute. Especially if it happens every single round in the same manner.

You could try to find an in-game way of combatting this, but it will only ever look like a desperate counter-measure fired off in response to the wild assertion (and that's assuming you are quick enough to act on the spot!): A Templar could lie in response and say, "No! *I* am the Traitor and *this* is the Grand Master!" and point to another Templar. The problem with this is that it's extremely weak making an allegation like that second to the Traitor Templars assertion.

A further in game method to combat this (and this is after that particular strategy has ruined your game a few times already) is to have the Templars get "gamey" (ungh). Now, all Templars at the start of the game need to ALL say "I am a traitor and that is the Grand Master" and just point at random Templars to cause enough confusion to stop the actual Traitor from boldly and truthfully making that claim, because everyone is seeming to do the same thing.


I mean, yeah, this seems like one of the two main activities of the game. If you don't accuse each other of being the grandmaster left and right, there's nothing to untangle via monk investigations. If you don't like lying about your role and accusing people of being the enemy, why are you playing this kind of game?
 
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Re: Traitor Templars seem to have the ability to break the game?
That's a good point. I suppose as a Templar you would be trying to get the King to waste using his Monks on irrelevant or unhelpful targets, and so, declaring a false Grand Master would be a reasonable line of play.

Also, Michael Mindes wrote this to me:

Quote:
Other people can make the same claim at the same time. In fact if all of
the templars do this are the same time at the beginning, then this issue is
100% resolved.

:)

This is also one reason that it is quick and you play the game over more
than one hand.

The Grandmaster is the easiest to find and the game is enjoyable despite
this fact. You just have to know and understand that it is not this long
drawn out social deduction like Werewolf or Resistance.


You know what, I think I am on board with this line of thinking.
 
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