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Subject: so according to Battlefront, Warfare is kind of in limbo rss

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fightcitymayor
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latest announcement:

Battlefront wrote:
With regards to Warfare, I think it’s very important to set the right expectations. Warfare is not explicitly covered by our agreement and is still under licence with Fantasy Flight. We think they’ve done a fine job of providing a backdrop for the Dust Warfare community, and we hope to continue that by supporting the game as much as is allowable within the existing legal agreements. We will support Warfare by including Warfare-specific cards for every unit we produce from here on out. We will continue to offer supplements online, as we’ve done recently for Operation Achilles in a free PDF!

While our strategy certainly includes supporting existing Warfare players, in the short term we are planning to grow the DUST community by aggressively recruiting new players into DUST Tactics. This is evidenced in our forthcoming Tactics starter boxes (which include new quick-start rules) as well as a full-fledged Tactics rulebook at a later date. We believe a singular focus on getting DUST into new players’ hands is what the awesome product needs.

This doesn’t mean Warfare players are being forgotten! Indeed, as we’ve said, all new releases will be Warfare-compatible through the use of included cards. Campaign packs will be available for Warfare players, and down the road we can see what else the future holds for Warfare.


 
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James Palmer
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Yeah. I've personally put my Dust spending on hold until this all is sorted out.
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David Stahler Jr.
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I'm not too worried by this. Both FFG and BF are reputable companies staffed by grownups who don't generally seem to have much interest in getting caught up in drawn-out pissing matches.

I may be totally wrong on all this, but...

My guess would be that it has to do with the fact that FFG never owned Dust Tactics (they just distributed it for Dust Studios), while they did own Dust Warfare (a ruleset of their own creation, using the Dust IP, which they presumably licensed from Dust Studios).

So when Battlefront took over Dust Tactics, Dust Studios just switched distributors, leaving FFG still owning the rights to Dust Warfare. But I don't see how it would be in FFG's interest to cause problems over transferring this property in a clear, reasonable way.

Bottom line--this is a pretty big transition, complicated by the fact that there are three companies involved with two rule sets that use one set of miniatures and one IP. But I have faith that this little hiccup will get resolved, and sooner rather than later.
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fightcitymayor
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I'm kinda curious how interested BF is at continuing the Warfare line at all. Given that Warfare was never a Paolo thing (and who knows what FFG is asking for the licensing rights,) it's entirely possible that BF just cranks out Warfare cards for any new Tactics units (to placate the existing fanbase) but doesn't go any further into supporting Warfare beyond that step.

 
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David Stahler Jr.
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That might be, but I'd be surprised it that were the case. They're upfront about the fact that they're focusing primarily on DT for the time being, while providing Warfare cards for new units. As long as the DW core rulebook and campaign books are still available, that could good enough.

I hear a lot of complaints on BF's Dust page from Warfare players saying they feel neglected, but I'm not sure why or what the expectations are. As a DW player, I have a great ruleset (not perfect, but pretty darn good), so as long as I have stats for whatever new units come out, I don't feel I need much more, at least for the time being.

All that said, I'm sure BF knows that, in the long run, they only have to gain from supporting their DW base.
 
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Christian T. Petersen
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Wheelockian wrote:
I'm not too worried by this. Both FFG and BF are reputable companies staffed by grownups who don't generally seem to have much interest in getting caught up in drawn-out pissing matches.

So when Battlefront took over Dust Tactics, Dust Studios just switched distributors, leaving FFG still owning the rights to Dust Warfare. But I don't see how it would be in FFG's interest to cause problems over transferring this property in a clear, reasonable way.


I wanted to clarify this point. FFG transferred all rights to Dust Warfare to BF and DS (this happened early last summer). In fact, we transferred all our near-complete working files, scenarios, and imagery for the DW book that we had been working on ("Campaign Book:Achilles") to Dust Studio and Battlefront around last May/June or so.

Bottom line is that FFG has no ongoing stake or control in this rules system. I cannot speak to the statement from BF above.

Like you, we hope that DW will have a thriving future in the hands of its new publisher, but FFG has been out of this picture for a while.

Best Wishes,

Christian Petersen
FFG
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fightcitymayor
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Wheelockian wrote:
I hear a lot of complaints on BF's Dust page from Warfare players saying they feel neglected, but I'm not sure why or what the expectations are. As a DW player, I have a great ruleset (not perfect, but pretty darn good), so as long as I have stats for whatever new units come out, I don't feel I need much more, at least for the time being.
I agree there. It isn't as though FFG were cranking out Warfare-specific content either. It was pretty much, "Here is the Warfare rulebook for the latest Tactics expansion, we'll see you soon!" It always seemed like a complementary product & people were cool with that.

 
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Flightmaster wrote:
Wheelockian wrote:
I'm not too worried by this. Both FFG and BF are reputable companies staffed by grownups who don't generally seem to have much interest in getting caught up in drawn-out pissing matches.

So when Battlefront took over Dust Tactics, Dust Studios just switched distributors, leaving FFG still owning the rights to Dust Warfare. But I don't see how it would be in FFG's interest to cause problems over transferring this property in a clear, reasonable way.


I wanted to clarify this point. FFG transferred all rights to Dust Warfare to BF and DS (this happened early last summer). We have no ongoing stake or control in this rules system. Like you, we hope that DW will have a thriving future in the hands of its new publisher.

Best Wishes,

cP
FFG


Thanks for the clarification, Christian, though that leaves me puzzling over BF's latest posting on their DUST page ("Warfare is not explicitly covered by our agreement and is still under licence with Fantasy Flight.") Clearly, there's been some miscommunication. Hopefully, it'll get straightened quickly.

Thanks for all the awesome work you guys did getting Dust Warfare up and running--it's a great set of rules!
 
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Martin Larouche
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The way i see it currently is that BF is more or less goofing in explanations when the Warfare community tells them: "you forgot about us" and they realize they indeed forgot about it.

Now that everyone is figuring out that they forgot about Warfare, they are making a mess of announcements:

- Community: "The starters can't make legal Warfare platoons".
- BF: "Wait until next week, we'll have an announcement for Warfare players that will please them".
*a week passes*
- BF: "Here are the new dice for Tactics"
- Community: "They don't work with Warfare and no one likes them outside 1 or 2 people"
- BF: "hum... the Flames of War players we tested them with who never played Dust Tactics seemed to like them over the old ones and hum... Warfare is in limbo so we can't do anything about it for now!" (Yes, they did ask flames of war players).
- FFG: "no it's not. BF has full control".
- Community: "Ok so, what about new Warfare players? how can they use the starters?"
- BF: "these starters are not for Warfare, but rest assured we have not forgotten about you."
- Community: "yes you did".

It just looks like someone at Dust-Models or BF forgot about Warfare while making the starters (i'd guess Dust Models) and BF is trying to find an explanation and stumbling upon their own words. They just can't say: "oops, sorry. We'll try better next time." After all, these are only the entrypoints into the game... shake
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Matt Siegel
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Sounds like BF needs to hire a DT/DW fanatic. I'll do a free commercial with my ad agency but we don't launch until March 13, 2014.
 
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At this point I've given up on Warfare, and to a lesser extent, Tactics, and not just because of the massively drawn-out transition and the botched distribution of wave 8. I just haven't been able to get anybody interested in the game. My FLGS was pushing it pretty hard all this spring/summer, but to completely no avail. All the Dust product they have for sale are at this point covered in dust. No one even takes a second glance... soblue

I dunno. It just feels like this game needs a serious kick in the pants to get it running.
 
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Martin Larouche
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braveheart101 wrote:
At this point I've given up on Warfare, and to a lesser extent, Tactics, and not just because of the massively drawn-out transition and the botched distribution of wave 8. I just haven't been able to get anybody interested in the game. My FLGS was pushing it pretty hard all this spring/summer, but to completely no avail. All the Dust product they have for sale are at this point covered in dust. No one even takes a second glance... soblue

I dunno. It just feels like this game needs a serious kick in the pants to get it running.


They require a solid relaunch that's for sure.

The game has been going into decline ever since it was announced BF would take over. It's to be expected of course since no one would jump on a hobby game whose future is uncertain.

More than that however, they need to seriously improve their distribution. My three closest FLGS can't get their hands on anything made since Battlefront took over. One exception, one of them could get it's hand on a single box of Achilles and even then, not from his two main distributor.
Talking to the store owner, he has three distributors. Two of them don't stock anything Battlefront and with the third, Dust products have changed location on their website. Where it was listed under "Dust Tactics" before, the products are now listed under "misc", along with 100s of other product lines, including dices and Cthulhu plushies. And then if you can manage to find them, all wave 8 are currently "coming soon" with no dates attached outside the Achilles box which was listed yesterday as "backorder".

With FFG, being such a large distributor, the game could face off against the Warhammer juggernaut. It wouldn't have "won" to become the most popular and sold, but it could stand on the shelf right next to it. With Battlefront, the game is doomed to be more obscure. Only the biggest fans will take the plunge into that game.

A game will sell more just because of the distributor. FFG is well-known, BF not so much. A newcomer would recognize FFG and be confident in the game. If the same person sees "Battlefront", he'll wonder what these guys are and may not risk a purchase.

I don't get the transition in the first place. According to rumours, it's'sDust who pulled out of FFG. I'll never understand why. It's clear as skies they are going to sell less under BF.
 
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James Palmer
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I'm taking a year break from buying Dust stuff, myself, until things settle down and I can see the direction Dust is going. I started into a new miniatures game, and my usual Dust gaming partner likes it way more, so to be honest, it's going to be difficult to get back into Dust at all. My son still loves Dust, but then again, he's only 3, and not yet much of a gaming partner. :-)

I haven't totally given up on Dust yet, but they are going to have to show me clearly where it is headed before I invest more money into it.
 
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Wow, such gloom and doom from the Great White North.

Maybe it's because we live in a rural area far away from any FLGS, but our group is getting more and more into DUST all the time. I'm an FFG guy all the way, but my fellow gamers, being FOW players, love the fact that Battlefront have taken over and have high praise for the company. Time will tell, of course, but it seems premature to say the game has gone into decline.

First of all, there's still plenty of product available through FFG directly, CSI, MM, etc.. BF's Dust website is up and running with an active forum, links to downloadable content, etc.

You're certainly right that the pace of new products has been slower, and there was some recent confusion over Warfare, but BF has pretty clear about their plans moving forward, and it seems like there's quite a bit of exciting stuff ahead.
 
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Martin Larouche
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Wheelockian wrote:
Wow, such gloom and doom from the Great White North.

Maybe it's because we live in a rural area far away from any FLGS, but our group is getting more and more into DUST all the time. I'm an FFG guy all the way, but my fellow gamers, being FOW players, love the fact that Battlefront have taken over and have high praise for the company. Time will tell, of course, but it seems premature to say the game has gone into decline.

First of all, there's still plenty of product available through FFG directly, CSI, MM, etc.. BF's Dust website is up and running with an active forum, links to downloadable content, etc.

You're certainly right that the pace of new products has been slower, and there was some recent confusion over Warfare, but BF has pretty clear about their plans moving forward, and it seems like there's quite a bit of exciting stuff ahead.


Yeah well that's just it really. If the only option is to order online, the game is effectively dead in Canada and i suspect in many other countries. No one but the biggest fanatics are going to pay for shipping all the time.
U.S. postal services for anything shipping to Canada has gone way up in recent years. Even with great prices from online stores, we end up paying over msrp and that's without accouting for possible customs fees if applicable. It's currently cheaper to order from China than to order from anywhere in the states (and we get our products from China a whole week earlier too).

So we still rely on FLGS to get our games. If Dust products can't get to canadian distributors, it can't get into stores and people won't go out of their way to get into Dust when there's so much competition easilly available.

While i like Dust, it's not as if the game was this huge unique thing where you can't get a similar experience anywhere else. There are tons of games like it.
 
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deedob wrote:
Wheelockian wrote:
Wow, such gloom and doom from the Great White North.

Maybe it's because we live in a rural area far away from any FLGS, but our group is getting more and more into DUST all the time. I'm an FFG guy all the way, but my fellow gamers, being FOW players, love the fact that Battlefront have taken over and have high praise for the company. Time will tell, of course, but it seems premature to say the game has gone into decline.

First of all, there's still plenty of product available through FFG directly, CSI, MM, etc.. BF's Dust website is up and running with an active forum, links to downloadable content, etc.

You're certainly right that the pace of new products has been slower, and there was some recent confusion over Warfare, but BF has pretty clear about their plans moving forward, and it seems like there's quite a bit of exciting stuff ahead.


Yeah well that's just it really. If the only option is to order online, the game is effectively dead in Canada and i suspect in many other countries. No one but the biggest fanatics are going to pay for shipping all the time.
U.S. postal services for anything shipping to Canada has gone way up in recent years. Even with great prices from online stores, we end up paying over msrp and that's without accouting for possible customs fees if applicable. It's currently cheaper to order from China than to order from anywhere in the states (and we get our products from China a whole week earlier too).

So we still rely on FLGS to get our games. If Dust products can't get to canadian distributors, it can't get into stores and people won't go out of their way to get into Dust when there's so much competition easilly available.

While i like Dust, it's not as if the game was this huge unique thing where you can't get a similar experience anywhere else. There are tons of games like it.


It's a bummer you guys have such a tough time with shipping. You'd think BF being in New Zealand and part of the Commonwealth (isn't it?), shipping to Canada wouldn't be an issue.

When I hear people say things like "I've given up on Warfare," I wonder what that means. You're not going to play it anymore? You're not going to buy anything new that comes out?

Maybe, it's how I play games. Since I don't ever go to tournaments or a FLGS to play, when I find a game I like, I play it with family and friends and don't worry too much about the broader scene. So, to take DUST for example, there's a ton of different units out there (enough to give me years of replayability and enjoyment), a good set of rules and source books, and a company that seems pretty excited about the game and has articulated a fairly clear direction for the game (new products, new factions, etc.) so I have a hard time seeing it as dead or even in decline.

I guess I don't really care--people are free to pick up or drop games as they choose. But I really think in this case people are giving up on the game and on Battlefront way too quickly. Maybe these people weren't that into the game that much to begin with, and that's fine, too, but it seems a bit fickle, particularly when the company is very vehement in their support of the game and has a clear list of Warfare products in production (cards, chits, .pdfs, etc.). (Not trying to say this is the case with you, Martin, but based on a lot of talk I hear from others.)

Not trying to disregard your distribution woes in Canada. Hopefully, BF will get them resolved. They're a pretty successful company from what I can tell (FOW seems to have quite a following), so it seems strange that they wouldn't be able to distribute to a country like Cananda.

In the meantime, our group will continue to include DW in the rotation of games we enjoy playing together. I haven't even thought about buying any of the new stuff yet anyway--I've got so many different units from Waves 1-7 that I haven't even got around to exploring yet, I feel like I'm just scratching the surface as it is.
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James Palmer
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Wheelockian wrote:

When I hear people say things like "I've given up on Warfare," I wonder what that means. You're not going to play it anymore? You're not going to buy anything new that comes out?


As I said, I'm taking a year off of Dust purchases. I'm investing into another miniatures game (Dropzone Commander) for awhile, but I expect there are still more Dust items I will buy.

I still play Dust Tactics / Warfare occasionally. I just introduced someone to Dust Tactics a couple weeks ago and he really enjoyed it. Even if nothing new ever came out for it, it's still a great game with great miniatures.
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Sam Phillips
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The Achilles beta testing has been very controversial with the SSU soldier 4 units. I think Battle Fronts response will determine if Warfare is a casualty or survives.

 
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I am new to Dust Warfare. Just got it Dec. 2013, but I love it. One of the main reasons I choose was because I prefer the company, FFG, over several of the other companies. I am sad to see a new owner take over Warfare, but I am still interested in the game and hope to buy more units and an alien faction, if they come out. If Dust goes in a way I don't like, then I still have some wave 1-8 to buy and enough to play with that I would be happy with a complete minis game. Thanks for your reply Petersen, it does sound like Warfare will be coming out later.
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So let the confusion begin... FFG says "...FFG transferred all rights to Dust Warfare to BF and DS" yet today over on FB https://www.facebook.com/groups/303941853917/101519590541589... Oliver Zamfirescu is saying "...please remember that the great people at Battlefront work and support a game that DOESN'T BELONG TO US OR THEM".. So that leaves ownership with?
 
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Martin Larouche
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Manchu8990 wrote:
So let the confusion begin... FFG says "...FFG transferred all rights to Dust Warfare to BF and DS" yet today over on FB https://www.facebook.com/groups/303941853917/101519590541589... Oliver Zamfirescu is saying "...please remember that the great people at Battlefront work and support a game that DOESN'T BELONG TO US OR THEM".. So that leaves ownership with?


That Warfare is no longer FFG's but with either BF or Dust Studios.

However, as was said, BF cannot make a Warfare product that would devaluate FFG's materials until their stock is completely sold.

That means, for example, putting out a Warfare 2.0 ruleset, which would make all sales of the previous books almost impossible. So BF is currently limited on what they can produce regarding Warfare. This is not the case with Tactics as even if they make a completely different ruleset, it wouldn't make the old FFG boxes obsolete (unless they decided all old units were no longer legal for playing...). As far as Tactics goes, it just means we won't see reprints of old unit boxes until the FFG stock is sold out.
 
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deedob wrote:
Manchu8990 wrote:
So let the confusion begin... FFG says "...FFG transferred all rights to Dust Warfare to BF and DS" yet today over on FB https://www.facebook.com/groups/303941853917/101519590541589... Oliver Zamfirescu is saying "...please remember that the great people at Battlefront work and support a game that DOESN'T BELONG TO US OR THEM".. So that leaves ownership with?


That Warfare is no longer FFG's but with either BF or Dust Studios.

However, as was said, BF cannot make a Warfare product that would devaluate FFG's materials until their stock is completely sold.

That means, for example, putting out a Warfare 2.0 ruleset, which would make all sales of the previous books almost impossible. So BF is currently limited on what they can produce regarding Warfare. This is not the case with Tactics as even if they make a completely different ruleset, it wouldn't make the old FFG boxes obsolete (unless they decided all old units were no longer legal for playing...). As far as Tactics goes, it just means we won't see reprints of old unit boxes until the FFG stock is sold out.


I'm sure you're right, but you would think if BF does in fact own the rights to Warfare, then they should be able to do whatever the hell they want to with it (otherwise, what value do the rights have?), unless that was a specific condition of the rights transfer. If so, it seems shortsighted of FFG. The better Warfare does, the more product FFG will sell, including its back-stock of miniatures, which I bet are worth a hell of a lot more than whatever Warfare book stock they have remaining.

It's unfortunate the whole FFG to BF deal didn't include the sale of pre-existing stock for both the Tactics miniatures and the Warfare books--would have made this entire process less confusing and smoother for everyone. I can only guess that it would have cost more than BF could afford at the time.
 
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Martin is spot on and after brushing up my googlefu I found this http://www.dust-tactics.com/tabid/89/g/posts/m/3451/How-much... To point out this portion "...the agreement to take over from FFG we came to has FFG selling all product upto and including wave 7 and all the Warfare books printed to date staying with FFG to sell for a few years yet." Surely, there was a drop dead date added to the "sell all" part. I guess the question is; what does a few years equate to?
 
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Well I certainly hope we don't have to wait for the very last zombie unit to leave the FFG warehouse before BF starts actively supporting Warfare.

I do enjoy this game but lack of activity outside Tactics is sapping my interest.
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jordanscott wrote:
Well I certainly hope we don't have to wait for the very last zombie unit to leave the FFG warehouse before BF starts actively supporting Warfare.

I do enjoy this game but lack of activity outside Tactics is sapping my interest.


It's the sale of Warfare rule and campaign books, not the units, that are the issue with Warfare.

I guess it depends on what your definition of "active" is in terms of support. I know it's not on the level of what many fans--particularly those who are deep into the game--would like to see at this point, but BF has stated numerous times on the official Dust website that they plan on supporting DW and understand its importance to Dust's overall success.

There's so much existing product out there from what FFG put out that our group has only begun to scratch the surface of Warfare. Remember, it's really only the latest wave of units that are still awaiting the conclusion of open beta testing (something FFG didn't do for better or for worse) before being finalized for Warfare. Yeah, it's taking longer than it probably should, but it's going to happen.

Distribution of the newest wave has been an issue for some folks, but that goes beyond just Warfare.

In other words, I would encourage you not to let the perceived lack of activity beyond Tactics sap your interest in what is a fantastic game.
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