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Sergeants Miniatures Game: Red Devils» Forums » Rules

Subject: Are all Mortar Crew Leaders or am I just unlucky? rss

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Charlie Theel
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Could have posted this in the other mortar thread but this is a bit different and it may have gotten lost as it didn't relate to the thread title.

So, my main Mortar trooper is a Lance Corporal with a Hold 1 Card Ability. The Loader is available at Lance Corporal or Sergeant, both also with a Hold 1. I'm guessing they both received Hold 1 due to their badge/medal decorations? (Both my Mortar and PIAT teams are decorated).

So, what's the problem (besides the fact that "leaders" are functioning as crew members for ordinance which is odd)? The problem is that fielding them is possible in only scenarios where you get to choose 2 leaders, and more importantly they are horrible leaders that no one in their right mind would choose. If I take them I have no draw ability and am stuck with only 3 cards a turn and virtually no choice in action card placement.

Are your mortar crew also Leaders? Is this some bizarre balancing mechanism? Should I just house rule these guys and say they're not Leaders?
 
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Mayor Jim
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House rule them googoo...seriously, that is a strange set up. Mine are tucked away for a while but I need to check them.
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Paul Gelder
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From the rules:-

Leaders are also categorized as any Soldier with a Draw ability.

Doesn't mention hold.
So i think you are safe.
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Greg
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the-orc wrote:
From the rules:-

Leaders are also categorized as any Soldier with a Draw ability.

Doesn't mention hold.
So i think you are safe.


Yeah, Hold doesn't matter, it's the Draw that determines if they are a leader or not. Draw values are means of determining initiative or changing initiative with a Look action. So that represents leadership in getting your troops to act before the enemy.

Interesting about the Hold value on a LC.

I do find it unusual for a Sergeant to be a loader.
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Charlie Theel
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I need to check the 2.0 rules again but 90% positive they mention Dra OR Hold ability defining a leader.

Edit - The electronic v2 rules say just Draw as quoted, I need to check the printed copy of te Rules though as I'm fairly positive it said Draw or Hold (I just re-read these the other night). Maybe my mind is playing tricks on me.
 
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Pete Atack
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Yeah - Leaders being mortar crew is odd. But so is the fact that there are no British privates (all Lance Corps).
 
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Paul Buchholz
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Everywhere I can find is that DRAW ability determines a leader.

My mortar loader does not have either ability.

My PIAT crew on the other hand is crazy. Both the loader and gunner have HOLD 1 and the loader came with a complete second rank with DRAW ability. My PIAT gunner has HIDE -5 so he can pretty much hide on top of a flagpole While the poor loader only has HIDE -1. Seems I have the ghost recon PIAT team

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Greg
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Pete Atack wrote:
Yeah - Leaders being mortar crew is odd. But so is the fact that there are no British privates (all Lance Corps).


Or Corporals that I can tell.

Paul wrote:
My PIAT crew on the other hand is crazy. Both the loader and gunner have HOLD 1 and the loader came with a complete second rank with DRAW ability. My PIAT gunner has HIDE -5 so he can pretty much hide on top of a flagpole While the poor loader only has HIDE -1. Seems I have the ghost recon PIAT team


Funny that you mention ghost recon team, with all the higher ranks with the RD release, it almost makes them seem like Seal Team 6 or some other special ops group where they are so super elite that they are all higher ranks than your standard ranks.
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Mayor Jim
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Hahma wrote:
[q="Pete Atack"]Yeah - Leaders being mortar crew is odd. But so is the fact that there are no British privates (all Lance Corps).


Or Corporals that I can tell.

Paul]My PIAT crew on the other hand is crazy. Both the loader and gunner have HOLD 1 and the loader came with a complete second rank with DRAW ability. My PIAT gunner has HIDE -5 so he can pretty much hide on top of a flagpole While the poor loader only has HIDE -1. Seems I have the ghost recon PIAT team
[/q wrote:


Funny that you mention ghost recon team, with all the higher ranks with the RD release, it almost makes them seem like Seal Team 6 or some other special ops group where they are so super elite that they are all higher ranks than your standard ranks.

Yeah, generally speaking, the RDs are rated a bit higher than my Germans...but then they're an elite group even if the ranks are screwed up a bit meeple
 
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Charlie Theel
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AHA, I was right. I just looked in my printed copy of the Red Devils rulebook and it is NOT the same as the online version of 2.0 rules. It says a Leader is any soldier with a Draw OR Hold ability.

So yeah, this really blows. I guess it's another house rule I will need to implement as there's no way I'm counting my Mortar Teams as leaders. One of the guys doesn't even have a Hide card so he can't even use his Hold ability but he's supposed to be a Leader?

Also, what else in the 2.0 printed rules does not match the online version, and which is the correct one?
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Mayor Jim
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charlest wrote:
AHA, I was right. I just looked in my printed copy of the Red Devils rulebook and it is NOT the same as the online version of 2.0 rules. It says a Leader is any soldier with a Draw OR Hold ability.

So yeah, this really blows. I guess it's another house rule I will need to implement as there's no way I'm counting my Mortar Teams as leaders. One of the guys doesn't even have a Hide card so he can't even use his Hold ability but he's supposed to be a Leader?

Also, what else in the 2.0 printed rules does not match the online version, and which is the correct one?

Hmmm...seems like one that slipped past the rules team...guess you'll have to house rule it for a bit
 
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Greg
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MayorJim wrote:
charlest wrote:
AHA, I was right. I just looked in my printed copy of the Red Devils rulebook and it is NOT the same as the online version of 2.0 rules. It says a Leader is any soldier with a Draw OR Hold ability.

So yeah, this really blows. I guess it's another house rule I will need to implement as there's no way I'm counting my Mortar Teams as leaders. One of the guys doesn't even have a Hide card so he can't even use his Hold ability but he's supposed to be a Leader?

Also, what else in the 2.0 printed rules does not match the online version, and which is the correct one?

Hmmm...seems like one that slipped past the rules team...guess you'll have to house rule it for a bit


Wow, I had thought Jeff had said before that it was Draw value making them a leader. I'm certainly going to house rule it that only soldiers with Draw value are considered leaders.

Having a Hold value can be totally useless if your solder doesn't have a Hide action card, or you never happen to draw it. A Draw value gets used every turn, and can be used in phases to boost your initiative with a Look action if your soldier has a Look card. But even if they don't have one, you still get to use it at the start of a turn.



 
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Charlie Theel
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Hahma wrote:
MayorJim wrote:
charlest wrote:
AHA, I was right. I just looked in my printed copy of the Red Devils rulebook and it is NOT the same as the online version of 2.0 rules. It says a Leader is any soldier with a Draw OR Hold ability.

So yeah, this really blows. I guess it's another house rule I will need to implement as there's no way I'm counting my Mortar Teams as leaders. One of the guys doesn't even have a Hide card so he can't even use his Hold ability but he's supposed to be a Leader?

Also, what else in the 2.0 printed rules does not match the online version, and which is the correct one?

Hmmm...seems like one that slipped past the rules team...guess you'll have to house rule it for a bit


Wow, I had thought Jeff had said before that it was Draw value making them a leader. I'm certainly going to house rule it that only soldiers with Draw value are considered leaders.

Having a Hold value can be totally useless if your solder doesn't have a Hide action card, or you never happen to draw it. A Draw value gets used every turn, and can be used in phases to boost your initiative with a Look action if your soldier has a Look card. But even if they don't have one, you still get to use it at the start of a turn.





Yes, this is definitely a 2.0 rules change. When I read it I thought it was a bit odd so that's why it stuck in my memory. Maybe the online rulebook is correct and then I don't have an issue with my Mortar Crew.
 
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Greg
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Well you don't have to have an issue with your mortar crew, as you can just ignore that Hold value = leader part in 2.0.
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Jeff Billings
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The Hold cards value on a Soldier card allows for planning. It can show up due to training or as a result of some prior life experience in a soldier. (Strangely enough a Librarian prior job experience gives an ability to organize and prepare --- That equals Hold +1 Card regardless of rank.)

Also certain military training also changes the Soldiers ability to prepare for an action - Hold a Card.

So why add the senior rank in the team. I decided to do that for the loader of the team so you as players have flexibility to play them as an NCO. Sergeants allows for three bands of ranks... (Private Soldiers, NCOs, and Senior NCOs). How you organize your squad is up to you.

The support member of some teams really don't have enough tactical advantages in that role. So we use the excess card space to provide the NCO level of leadership in the team for you to use in your squad. A sergeant can carry ammo, but they usually don't.

The British are a singularly unique military. They have rich tradition, they use the regimental system to train and deploy soldiers. During WW2 the paper strength of the squad was 12 men but only 9 or 10 were fielded since they rotated soldiers rather than units - an artifact of the replacement system in the Regimental approach to training.

In SMG we handle all that rich behavior by embedding it in the soldier generation system. That is why the design is driven by proprietary software and game design techniques not usual to table top games. So you will see some correct but non-intuitive results in the soldiers because of this.

The new soldier roster is coming in early 2014. It will let you discover the rich history and training of each soldier.

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Charlie Theel
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Jeff Billings wrote:
The Hold cards value on a Soldier card allows for planning. It can show up due to training or as a result of some prior life experience in a soldier. (Strangely enough a Librarian prior job experience gives an ability to organize and prepare --- That equals Hold +1 Card regardless of rank.)

Also certain military training also changes the Soldiers ability to prepare for an action - Hold a Card.

So why add the senior rank in the team. I decided to do that for the loader of the team so you as players have flexibility to play them as an NCO. Sergeants allows for three bands of ranks... (Private Soldiers, NCOs, and Senior NCOs). How you organize your squad is up to you.

The support member of some teams really don't have enough tactical advantages in that role. So we use the excess card space to provide the NCO level of leadership in the team for you to use in your squad. A sergeant can carry ammo, but they usually don't.

The British are a singularly unique military. They have rich tradition, they use the regimental system to train and deploy soldiers. During WW2 the paper strength of the squad was 12 men but only 9 or 10 were fielded since they rotated soldiers rather than units - an artifact of the replacement system in the Regimental approach to training.

In SMG we handle all that rich behavior by embedding it in the soldier generation system. That is why the design is driven by proprietary software and game design techniques not usual to table top games. So you will see some correct but non-intuitive results in the soldiers because of this.

The new soldier roster is coming in early 2014. It will let you discover the rich history and training of each soldier.



That's cool Jeff, having a loader who can be used as a Sergeant is nice, it allows me to field him without the mortar and gives more Leader diversity.

The issue I'm raising in this thread is that the printed rulebook in Red Devils says that a soldier with a Hold ability is a Leader (even if he has no Draw ability). The online v2.0 rules do not say this.

Is the printed rulebook correct or the online version? If the printed version is correct then having a Mortar or PIAT team with Hold values is useless - they make horrible Leaders because they have no draw and you have to field both together to use the PIAT and Mortar.
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Jeff Billings
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Hahma wrote:
...
Having a Hold value can be totally useless if your solder doesn't have a Hide action card, or you never happen to draw it. A Draw value gets used every turn, and can be used in phases to boost your initiative with a Look action if your soldier has a Look card. But even if they don't have one, you still get to use it at the start of a turn.


I will take a different point of view as the designer...

It may be true for a Soldier by themselves with no Hide Action cards to not be able to use the Hold Ability. That is true and incomplete... so for sake of discussion let's call that a half truth.

Here is the truth - Soldiers can hold cards as part of Tactics Modules. Only a few of which are currently available. From the beginning of Sergeants I have been talking about these modules. They are the "Missing Piece" in your Squad. The richness in the Soldiers that seems to be wanting is being released in Tactics. For example, the Short Range greater than Long Range concern seen at http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1649576328/sergeants-min... that talks about why the system is built with what appears to be a mistake.

So, I agree with Sergeant Hahma as far as his statement went... however much much more is coming.
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Jeff Billings
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charlest wrote:
...

The issue I'm raising in this thread is that the printed rulebook in Red Devils says that a soldier with a Hold ability is a Leader (even if he has no Draw ability). The online v2.0 rules do not say this.

Is the printed rulebook correct or the online version? If the printed version is correct then having a Mortar or PIAT team with Hold values is useless - they make horrible Leaders because they have no draw and you have to field both together to use the PIAT and Mortar.


The online rules are precisely correct in this Point. A leader for purposes of choosing one is Only Draw Ability... We will fix that in the next revision and make sure they both match.

We are not quite at 100% after the server crash. I am working on an update to the website now and will see if I can resolve any differences.

Thanks for the clarification. I am not always on point so I appreciate a good follow up question.
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Charlie Theel
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Jeff Billings wrote:
charlest wrote:
...

The issue I'm raising in this thread is that the printed rulebook in Red Devils says that a soldier with a Hold ability is a Leader (even if he has no Draw ability). The online v2.0 rules do not say this.

Is the printed rulebook correct or the online version? If the printed version is correct then having a Mortar or PIAT team with Hold values is useless - they make horrible Leaders because they have no draw and you have to field both together to use the PIAT and Mortar.


The online rules are precisely correct in this Point. A leader for purposes of choosing one is Only Draw Ability... We will fix that in the next revision and make sure they both match.

We are not quite at 100% after the server crash. I am working on an update to the website now and will see if I can resolve any differences.

Thanks for the clarification. I am not always on point so I appreciate a good follow up question.



Great, thanks Jeff!
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Greg
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Jeff Billings wrote:
Hahma wrote:
...
Having a Hold value can be totally useless if your solder doesn't have a Hide action card, or you never happen to draw it. A Draw value gets used every turn, and can be used in phases to boost your initiative with a Look action if your soldier has a Look card. But even if they don't have one, you still get to use it at the start of a turn.


I will take a different point of view as the designer...

It may be true for a Soldier by themselves with no Hide Action cards to not be able to use the Hold Ability. That is true and incomplete... so for sake of discussion let's call that a half truth.

Here is the truth - Soldiers can hold cards as part of Tactics Modules. Only a few of which are currently available. From the beginning of Sergeants I have been talking about these modules. They are the "Missing Piece" in your Squad. The richness in the Soldiers that seems to be wanting is being released in Tactics. For example, the Short Range greater than Long Range concern seen at http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1649576328/sergeants-min... that talks about why the system is built with what appears to be a mistake.

So, I agree with Sergeant Hahma as far as his statement went... however much much more is coming.


Thanks for the insight Jeff.

This system is different than other games (at least ones I'm familiar with) in that there are rules and stats on cards that don't apply to what is available when that stuff is released. Things sometimes don't make sense to people because all we know is what is in front of us, as it is with most games. Knowing that you do things for a reason with stats with future releases in mind, it can ease people to know that those aren't mistakes (though not having privates and corporals is just a bit hard to understand for a division size unit).

 
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Greg
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Jeff Billings wrote:
charlest wrote:
...

The issue I'm raising in this thread is that the printed rulebook in Red Devils says that a soldier with a Hold ability is a Leader (even if he has no Draw ability). The online v2.0 rules do not say this.

Is the printed rulebook correct or the online version? If the printed version is correct then having a Mortar or PIAT team with Hold values is useless - they make horrible Leaders because they have no draw and you have to field both together to use the PIAT and Mortar.


The online rules are precisely correct in this Point. A leader for purposes of choosing one is Only Draw Ability... We will fix that in the next revision and make sure they both match.

We are not quite at 100% after the server crash. I am working on an update to the website now and will see if I can resolve any differences.

Thanks for the clarification. I am not always on point so I appreciate a good follow up question.


Yes, this was the crux of our concern/discussion about Charles' soldiers, and my main comments about the Hold value alone shouldn't make a soldier a leader. I understand how when it combines with a Draw value that it's an added leadership factor, but that wasn't what we were worried about, as we were just worried about soldiers with a Hold value and no Draw value being considered leaders.

But since Jeff confirmed that it's the Draw value that determines a leader (as it says in the online 2.0 rules), then we are good. Now Charles can play his PIAT and Mortar assistants and not worry about them being counted as leaders and taking away those valuable slots from leaders with Draw values.
 
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