Recommend
16 
 Thumb up
 Hide
380 Posts
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [16] | 

Android: Netrunner» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Caissa-dilla (OR, another Reina thread; why not?) rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Travis R. Chance
United States
Fishers
Indiana
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
So, tonight I was helping run an event at a local shop. We have 12 participants. For those of you who follow, troll, and pontificate in these threads, I was the guy who won a Plugged in with Exile, despite gallons of haterade spat into my general ears, eyes, mouth, and soul. I mention this only as a preface, as I am about to share a Reina list which I built an hour before the tourney, with zero net searching for inspiration, primarily because I am bored of playing Exile, and thought, hey, why not? Apparently, like 3 other people thought something similar, as Reina was out en masse!

So, I took second place, with a single timed win with Reina, not losing a game with her at all. I had played a single game before the tourney, won, and made a couple tiny edits based off of instinct. Having played the deck in said event, I can say with certainty it requires some finessing. Most notably, I had the ol' inconsistent Anarch draw syndrome going, to some degree. Still, I managed to navigate these issues with very consistent results:

1.) Each corp I played had their wallets emptied, burnt, shat upon, and generally moshed.

2.) I yeti-stomped through servers on the back of fixed breakers and Knights.

3.) A buttload of ice died from corp players trashing their own ice (this included an Archer!!!!) with the hopes of getting rid of some of the more annoying caissas, namely Knight.

Here is the list:

Reina Roja: 45 cards/15 inf

EVENTS: 16

3x Account Siphon ****
3x Sure Gamble
3x Dirty Laundry
3x Quality Time *
2x Infiltration
2x Deja Vu

HARDWARE: 5

2x Plascrete
3x Deep Red

PROGRAMS: 19

3x Corroder
3x Mimic
2x Yog.0
3x Knight
3x Rook
3x Bishop
2x Pawn

Resources: 5

2x Xanadu
3x Armitage


I played against 3 diff factions: Weyland (core set), HB (Next Design), and NBN (core set). The Weyland had substantial econ, yet I still managed to do all that weird stuff I mentioned not a moment ago. NBN was particularly screwed.

Next, I am not a fan, believer, or advocate of all this 'Forged Activation Orders/Emergency Shutdown/Crescentus/Cortex Chip are auto-includes with Reina' nonsense. Not at all. Here is why:

1.) Her inherit ability is already awesome. It functions on a fundamental level of the game, even if just in a needling way.

2.) Xanadu, while a tad costly, reinforces this and extends this taxing element to ALL ice--yes, I too can read cards!

3.) Rook takes the 2 above aspects and then blows raw cocaine into their bowels to make it more than annoying.

4.) Why flip ice down when some, if not, well, a lot, of corp players will be forced to trash the ice hosting things like Rook (if it is in a hearty server of yet-to-be-rezzed ice; OR, inversely, in a server of soon-to-be-installed ice) AND/OR Knight, which will prove annoying on non-Archer/Janus like ice--although I did put it on an Archer to horrifying results, which resulted in said Archer being trashed eventually to deprive me of said Knight.

I could go on and on about FOA has not been great for some time in Criminal decks as cheaper ice has risen to popularity. OR, how this same factor, to a degree, affects Shutdown. OR, how you don't really have a lot of influence to toss around on redundancies like this, which, let's be honest, come with little-to-no guarantees. No, my friends, I will not go into any of these tangents! For shame to any who would troll otherwise!

So anyway, I was doing really well in this event, BUT glaring flaws were oozing through the cracks in this deck design like so much INSERT SOMETHING GROSS. This is what I noticed (good and bad):

1.) Not having any multi-access cards (like RDI or Medium) was horrible and sad. I had to actually EARN my victories through a fair and sub-conventional approach! I would recommend dropping 1 Siphon for 2 RDI, or, play 2 Medium and fiddle with that 4 influence from 1 copy of Siphon in some other way that isn't terrible FOA nonsense.

2.) I have played a lot of Criminal. And I, until today, have never, not once, tried to Siphon someone and had it fail to connect. BUT, today, I had this happen 5x times!!! AND IT WAS AWESOME! Why? Because I would fart a Rook into their HQ (with Xanadu out, of course), forcing them to spend most, if not ALL, of said money without the nuisance of tags... or gaining $ Still, while I was hoping this would function more as a credit engine, while keeping corp broke, doing one of out two isn't terrible, I s'pose.

3.) Playing breakers is majestic. I will take breakers over awkward cute combo craptastic FOA and the like. Playing this density of redundant breakers (3 copies of Corroder and Mimic and 2 copies of Yog--which I have never, ever done until today) seems odd, but it panned out nicely. I always say, play to your strengths and against your weaknesses.

No tutors means play buttloads of the same card to ensure you draw them. My aforementioned timed win was due largely to my inability, despite playing 2 QTs, to draw 1 of my 3 Corroders until something like turn 12. It sucked. AND, people are playing Power Shutdown like mugs--which is rad for this deck, since you have 0 cost caissas!

4.) Quality Time has a much-deserved spot in this deck, no question. It did what I needed, each and every time I needed it.

5.) My econ was inconsistent. I either had droves, or was playing Infiltration for bucks. I really like Armitage in this deck. It felt on point. Lib Accounts puts you in a pinch, to an extent, and doesn't let you run as hot and loose. Being on no creds and drawing into Armitage is beauty incarnate. Being on no creds and drawing something that costs 6 is like swallowing firewood.

Also, Dirty Laundry is nice. Sure Gamble, obv. Siphon worked about 30% of the time as econ, but, as mentioned, I chose to play it this way, to force corp to stay poor.

6.) Deep Red... not into it. Interestingly, there were turns where I would QT up my hand, and then want to drop down the 0 cost caissas, but NOT host them on anything, as I wanted to clear my hand and not lose card economy. So, Deep Red wasn't working in tandem with a card that felt much needed. Yes, it saves you action economy, which, in my opinion, ranks #1. However, and perhaps this has more to do with playstyle, it felt poopish.

I would install the caissas as an open threat to put corp into the tank,
waiting to host them at the most opportune time. This would cause the corp to fear remote sniping--which the deck is blisteringly amaze-zone at doing--which in turn would buy me time to pressure centrals, causing them to devote credits to wall up. Then Rook would make them cry a little.

In short, Deep Red isn't so hot when you are panning for gold. It seems to be best when you have your critical mass inbound. Part of me wonders if Spinal Modem would be okay--I had no MU issues, as ice was being trashed infi. Traces could be a prob, but I live in the land of Jinteki ninja death. At the least, I would cut 1.

7.) Caissas are waaaaay better than I expected. They feel like lateral counterparts to viruses in an action intensive manner. In each game, and I counted, my opponent trashed a minimum of 6 ice--primarily to Knight, who was just rad any time I had bucks (hence my thought of Spinal Modem) like a beefy and costly Crypsis. Perhaps this was moreso my opponents freaking out, prematurely trashing ice, but it just kept happening, no matter the faction, no matter the deck-style. It felt better than suckerspam parasite loop, truthfully.

The Bishops were helping fixed breakers and shrinking Bastions to a reasonable strength. At first, I thought: this is a terrible card. But it works like a weird tactical datasucker, in a way. If you host it on the right ice, they will trash it to neg your fixed breaker fun.

2 copied of Pawn felt fine, as you don't really want to draw too many too early. I am very happy with the 2 Deja Vu. I do not think Same Old Thing, though less credit intensive, does the same (old) thing. You will want to get back caissas, lost breakers, lost Xanadu, beyond the flexibility for another Siphon, event, etc.

Rook felt, by far, the most important to time correctly. And by extension, it would often feel irrelevant once said critical mass had been achieved. They are insane in the early game and for putting corp in a remote server dilemma.

OH! Always, always, always make sure to move your relevant caissas back to rezzed ice before your turn ends. It took me most of my first round to learn this, but it is worth mentioning. EXAMPLE: move Knight off of Archer on to unrezzed ice, make run on that server, move Knight back to Archer.

8.) In case you were wondering why Infiltration: I live at the heart of Jinteki central. It is THE most played faction in my meta, and has been, here in Indiana for as long as throwing stars and mullets were a natural combo. I myself have even started playing them (see my 'Dead You' thread, for which I refuse to provide a convenient link).

Alright, it is late, I had no intention of even writing this monstrosity, but, I can't wait to awaken to a stocking full of haterade just in time for X-mas! I can't really stipulate, with precision, what I would change. All I know is there is something to this, though it needs some rejiggering.

20 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Tu
South Africa
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Looks very interesting, I hadn't given Caissa besides Rook much thought, and the thought of not running with Parasite simply boggles my mind, but I'll give your list a shot! Much appreciated!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jacek Wieszaczewski
Poland
Wrocław
Poland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Action Phase wrote:
1.) Not having any multi-access cards (like RDI or Medium) was horrible and sad. I had to actually EARN my victories through a fair and sub-conventional approach! I would recommend dropping 1 Siphon for 2 RDI, or, play 2 Medium and fiddle with that 4 influence from 1 copy of Siphon in some other way that isn't terrible FOA nonsense.

If the Caissas get trashed a lot, maybe two Clone Chips so you can install them mid-run when needed?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alejandro G.
United States
Hurst
Texas
flag msg tools
Sometimes you have to roll the hard six.
badge
I'm getting my men...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There was an Exile win in Arlington, TX as well. You weren't the only one.

Looks good though. I may give this a shot but modified a bit without dropping 12 influence for Account Siphons. Might throw some clone chips in there or a Magnum Opus.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ludovic Gauthier
France
flag msg tools
As I see it, FAO (and not FOA ...) inclusion in Reina decks isn't only making the corp pay more or trash things. It serves also as a countermeasure against the Anarch #1 weakness, no installation midrun in faction.

Though I concur, Knight looks like the perfect breaker to have if you roll on credits... Which may not be the case with Anarch in general...

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Grish Noren
msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
(Not here to troll you, looks like a decent take on the deck that's enhanced by your piloting skills; I agree that a medium might be worth your time having lost to it in Reina decks more than once at this point.)

NetEldrogo wrote:
As I see it, FAO (and not FOA ...) inclusion in Reina decks aren't only making the corp pay more or trash things. It serves also as a countermeasure against the Anarch #1 weakness, no installation midrun in faction.

Though I concur, Knight looks like the perfect breaker to have if you roll on credits... Which may not be the case with Anarch in general...


FAO: Have ice rezzed or trashed.
RUN: Have ice rezzed or access.

I'd choose the second one any day of the week. Yes FAO may open a window for you on another server, but so might RUN, RUN.

Runner's motto: be aggressive.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
sechzger
Germany
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
This deck has to fear archers and grim, perhaps and ichi, because they are out of Mimic range.
That's why FAO could be good. I would still not play it.
I will test sth. like this.
I could see crescentus being huge here, because ice with 2+ subroutnines can get very expenisve with Knight.
Oh i would also hate not playing my parasites.

Did you miss them?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Travis R. Chance
United States
Fishers
Indiana
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
NetEldrogo wrote:
As I see it, FAO (and not FOA ...) inclusion in Reina decks isn't only making the corp pay more or trash things. It serves also as a countermeasure against the Anarch #1 weakness, no installation midrun in faction.

Though I concur, Knight looks like the perfect breaker to have if you roll on credits... Which may not be the case with Anarch in general...



FAO (really, I was writing this in middle of the night--c'mon) comes with zero guarantees. You wanna kill ice make them irrelevant. Forged has been cycled out of most criminal decks, so making someone pay 1 more, in a general meta of cheaper ice, isn't 'synergy.' It's people taking her too literally and trying to jam in every single card they can that emulates or cute combos with her ability, which is 10x better than FAO will ever be. Sincerely, it's actually the biggest waste of influence I could imagine. 2 Forged will never be worth 1 Siphon. Ever. It simply is too low impact, esp. if you are praying to get Rook down AND Xanadu. Nonsense.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sam Suied
msg tools
mb
Try 2 mr li instead of the siphon. makes digging much easier
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Travis R. Chance
United States
Fishers
Indiana
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
gumOnShoe wrote:
(Not here to troll you, looks like a decent take on the deck that's enhanced by your piloting skills; I agree that a medium might be worth your time having lost to it in Reina decks more than once at this point.)

NetEldrogo wrote:
As I see it, FAO (and not FOA ...) inclusion in Reina decks aren't only making the corp pay more or trash things. It serves also as a countermeasure against the Anarch #1 weakness, no installation midrun in faction.

Though I concur, Knight looks like the perfect breaker to have if you roll on credits... Which may not be the case with Anarch in general...


FAO: Have ice rezzed or trashed.
RUN: Have ice rezzed or access.

I'd choose the second one any day of the week. Yes FAO may open a window for you on another server, but so might RUN, RUN.

Runner's motto: be aggressive.


I was aggressive. And I won because I was aggressive. Forged is not aggressive. It's a click and buck for what could be Pop-up Window, or Ice Wall, or Paper Wall. Or are we forgetting that we live in a world now where Jinteki can have 30+ creds up thanks to all this burst econ. Forged in tandem with a bunch of cards that pile on tack effects isn't aggressive; it's cute. So, take it any day of the month. You wanna be aggressive? Run at key points and Siphon them to nothing, even if you don't get the bucks.

Again, this is beyond literal, in terms of trying to build a deck around. As I stated, Rook felt outclassed in the late game, as their servers were never deep. Ever. We are talking 2 ice max in the aforementioned games, as they were constantly trashing things.

The click(s) you spend setting up a low impact 'combo' with Forged, you could be winning the game, not hoping you chose wisely.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Travis R. Chance
United States
Fishers
Indiana
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
recallme wrote:
This deck has to fear archers and grim, perhaps and ichi, because they are out of Mimic range.
That's why FAO could be good. I would still not play it.
I will test sth. like this.
I could see crescentus being huge here, because ice with 2+ subroutnines can get very expenisve with Knight.
Oh i would also hate not playing my parasites.

Did you miss them?


Funnily enough, my timed win was against a guy who played multiple Grim and Archers. First of all, what deck doesn't fall prey to a well-timed Archer? Are we assuming someone always has a Faerie in play with enough creds; or Femme with a billion creds, or you randomly chose to bypass it when it was facedown? Archer is just gross, HOWEVER Knight was smashing through Archer (for 6, which is actually cheaper than if you were pumping and using femme--I didn't care about him gaining 2 creds). Grim did nothing, as I put Rook on the right cards. My second round I played against Ichi--which I ran through on my first click, discovered, and then played around--though a Bishop helps here as well.

The key was to move/install caissas tactically before runs, which worked awesome in each and every game.

I promise you, a single caissa placed wisely will be a parasite 9/10. And you won't need a datasucker and a bunch of counters or Surge for the effect. I killed the same, if not more, ice--and I am talking medium to big ice in some instances--with this deck than I have with suckerspam; no joke.

As far as Crescentus, if this particular ice is so woesome for you, Crescentus will only be a temporary solution in most instances. Money and Knight will answer most of your woes--remember, this deck is good at making remotes feel irrelevant. As stated before, the majority of corp decks play small to medium cost efficient ice now, so these are generally easier to deal with. I agree this deck needs some tweaking, but it more than exceeded my expectations, and I can say, with certainly, suckerspam is wrong in this kind of deck. Forged is basically a shot in the dark when you could be playing high impact cards or things that actually let you succeed when running.

As soon as I saw Reina spoiled, my prediction, because a lot of what people consider innovative in this game is merely a case of majority consensus, was people would go bananas and over-include taxing effects. I swore, up and down, that I would even bother with Xanadu, but, look at me, ma! Attacking a fundamental aspect of game play, with a card like Xanadu, is actually great. It is an auto-include and in no way requires all these subpar criminal cards imported in. As a guy who has been very right a couple of times when most people said 'INSERT SUCCESSFUL DECK I BUILT AND POSTED looks terrible!' I will go on the record as stating, playing crap like Crescentus (which will require you actually navigating said troublesome ice, unless you are just wasting it on things you can bypass just to cost the corp a few extra credits), is actually terrible. It is not smart deckbuilding; it is, at best, cute. As you can see, I am quite passionate about how much nauseated at silliness like this.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Raf Cordero
United States
Bolingbrook
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Action Phase wrote:

Again, this is beyond literal, in terms of trying to build a deck around. As I stated, Rook felt outclassed in the late game, as their servers were never deep. Ever. We are talking 2 ice max in the aforementioned games, as they were constantly trashing things.

The click(s) you spend setting up a low impact 'combo' with Forged, you could be winning the game, not hoping you chose wisely.


How do you think this would do if they weren't trashing their ice? I play your Dirty Hands deck in my local league and even if I've played Corroder or Cyber Cypher no one ever voluntarily trashes ice. I know in some of the posts you wrote on that thread that you saw a lot of that once the Corp saw you only spending 1 or 2 credits to blow through ice. This Reina deck is exactly the kind of deck I've been wanting to build with her but I expect to see very little ice trashing in my meta. I have this vision of playing Reina like chess, 1-3 clicks of moving Caissas around before running in with fixed breakers, so I'm very happy to see someone have success with that.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Travis R. Chance
United States
Fishers
Indiana
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
xpiredsodapop wrote:
There was an Exile win in Arlington, TX as well. You weren't the only one.

Looks good though. I may give this a shot but modified a bit without dropping 12 influence for Account Siphons. Might throw some clone chips in there or a Magnum Opus.


I think Clone Chip would be fine, but, often, I was not wanting to use Deep Red's ability when I could (I mentioned this in the OP). I was not really having any midrun issues, as playing caissas to optimal effect (and, admittedly, this was my first foray into the world of net chess) seems more about setting up a tactical advantage. There were a few points where a Bishop would have let me keep running, were I to have one in the heap, but, other than this, most of my runs were working out nicely, or, at the worst, were taxing the corp, making them pick this server over another. I genuinely think Spinal Modem will pay for itself in 2 runs, and, I am not that worried about trace effects (I think one can play around this, if they are smart enough). Deja Vu and Pawn felt like ample and efficient tools for recursion.

First thing I said when I left was, Opus would be an all-star in here. Then I went home and started working with editing the list, which presented an issue: not enough MU. I hope to get out my full rig, where possible, which will eat up 3 MU. So how am I gonna have Opus out? Also, I have no guarantee I will draw Deep Red to help with caissas--even though I usually only ever had 1 in play. This put me on exploring playing Modem or Grimoire even (no way), but, alas this didn't really solve the prob, as I am now presented with caissas eating up MU. So, while I think Opus is the cat's meow, the number of additions to make it work will add to the awk draw factor by diluting the deck.

My conclusion was drop 1 Siphon, play 2 RDI. The deck needs multiple card access, since you often setup reliable, successful runs by moving around caissas and having your breakers up. Medium is just a bit slower, and I don't think it is as high impact of a card in a deck like this, as that first hit will do nothing (and this deck is action intensive as hell), as well as them purging once they get their wall up. I think runner decks just have to have a multi-access card these days.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Keaten
United States
League City
Texas
flag msg tools
First Click
badge
Praise it.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
A thought - you mention failing to connect with AS 5x during the day, but that FAILING actually really helped as well. Could you just... drop AS for other influence, then bring in Vamp? If not, is it the lack of deck space to fill in other influence, or the fact that AS is more beneficial when it does hit that makes it a bad idea?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Travis R. Chance
United States
Fishers
Indiana
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
captainraffi wrote:
Action Phase wrote:

Again, this is beyond literal, in terms of trying to build a deck around. As I stated, Rook felt outclassed in the late game, as their servers were never deep. Ever. We are talking 2 ice max in the aforementioned games, as they were constantly trashing things.

The click(s) you spend setting up a low impact 'combo' with Forged, you could be winning the game, not hoping you chose wisely.


How do you think this would do if they weren't trashing their ice? I play your Dirty Hands deck in my local league and even if I've played Corroder or Cyber Cypher no one ever voluntarily trashes ice. I know in some of the posts you wrote on that thread that you saw a lot of that once the Corp saw you only spending 1 or 2 credits to blow through ice. This Reina deck is exactly the kind of deck I've been wanting to build with her but I expect to see very little ice trashing in my meta. I have this vision of playing Reina like chess, 1-3 clicks of moving Caissas around before running in with fixed breakers, so I'm very happy to see someone have success with that.


There is a primary difference here:

My Exile deck makes ice feel outclassed by playing balls to the wall and being able to switch up its rig whenever, however.

This Reina deck puts shit on their ice which they can only really deal with optimally by trashing that piece of ice--well, Rook and Knight. I was watching a lot of ice die in these games, like suckerspam running hot numbers: 6 minimum. I do think that this was mainly because:

1.) People were weirded out by the caissas/had no experience, so they just got rid of them when they could--which, in a lot of instances, was the right play; or, at least, affected me when they chose to do so.

OR

2.) I was playing them very tactically. I would probe a server, THEN install the answer I needed. Inversely, in the early game, as well as the late game (weirdly), I was able to move them off of rezzed ice to unrezzed to great effect. So, basically, I was playing them well.

I def think this is a way to play caissas successfully and to optimize Reina's inherently nasty ability. I spent a good 2 hours trying to tweak the deck, but it is a tight, tight build. I dunno what the hell to do.

My tweaks were:

-3 Deep Red
-1 Siphon
+2 RDI
+2 Spinal Modem (I was only ever really needing 2-4 credits on my big runs, so this helps immensely).

I will test some more later and let you haters know what's up.

4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Keddie
Wales
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest a lot of people were eating ICE to remove Caissa because they're not used to playing against this type of deck yet. In time we may see better counters emerging.

Hell, even if they ARE going to eat the ICE, Corps might start including Security Subcontract just to make back some of the loss.

I'm getting my Mala Tempora soon (so impatient right now ) and I expect my opponents won't know how to play against it either, at first. Give the meta time to react.

Finally, I agree with FAO, but not necessarily for the reasons you do. Originally I WAS going to include it in my Reina deck, but I decided to swap it for Special Order in the end (which may yet become Clone Chips if Knight does prove to be the bomb). The reason I cut it though, was because if you're killing ICE, you have less places to host Caissa, which means less opportunity to triple-rook a server (or double-rook and Knight the one they managed to rez on a prior run).

I am running Emergency Shutdown however - I'll let you know if it works out.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Travis R. Chance
United States
Fishers
Indiana
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Neksol wrote:
A thought - you mention failing to connect with AS 5x during the day, but that FAILING actually really helped as well. Could you just... drop AS for other influence, then bring in Vamp? If not, is it the lack of deck space to fill in other influence, or the fact that AS is more beneficial when it does hit that makes it a bad idea?


This deck cannot support Vamp. It's actually really low credit cost (beyond Yog and using Knight's break ability). Also, I am playing Siphon as swing econ, where as Vamp is just econ drain when you don't have something like Opus to fuel the crap out of it. If I could somehow bolster the econ with Opus, I would still wanna play 2 Siphon and then 1 Vamp. So, in short, Vamp requires a stable econ, which this deck doesn't necessarily have/need with this kind of list. It is more click intensive than credit intensive: Yog breaks for free, many of the caissas are free, Corroder remains awesome and cheap, Armitage and Dirty are cheap burst, Siphon is free, etc.

But you hit the nail on another head (wait; I don't think this is an expression): deck space!!! I seriously spent 2 hours last night trying permutations of edits, and I had, roughly, 6 cards I felt I could move around confidently: 1 Siphon, 3 Deep Red (which would have to become 2 console anyway), and the 2 Infiltration--which rule in my Jinteki heavy meta, but could be cut.

As with my Dead You Jinteki, which is seriously a frigging amazingly consistent and scary fast deck, and Exile Dirty Hands, I threw this list up while still in the fetal stages to give people a palate to play around with while I tried to hone the deck.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Tu
South Africa
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Whenever I met Toby McGuire that new HB card (yes I know he's not Toby), it was highly irritating. Especially in RP. Behind a pissy useless barrier. That would guarantee that I'd draw my entire deck before I'd see a parasite or Corroder or anything. Next to another barrier. With a Sundew in.

Do I sound ranty?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Keaten
United States
League City
Texas
flag msg tools
First Click
badge
Praise it.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
That's what I figured, just thought I'd ask.

Another aside - I've been building a forward-looking RP deck and all these Caissa decks lately have made me want to build Midori-Amazon servers and cackle maniacally.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Travis R. Chance
United States
Fishers
Indiana
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
CommissarFeesh wrote:
I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest a lot of people were eating ICE to remove Caissa because they're not used to playing against this type of deck yet. In time we may see better counters emerging.

Hell, even if they ARE going to eat the ICE, Corps might start including Security Subcontract just to make back some of the loss.

I'm getting my Mala Tempora soon (so impatient right now ) and I expect my opponents won't know how to play against it either, at first. Give the meta time to react.

Finally, I agree with FAO, but not necessarily for the reasons you do. Originally I WAS going to include it in my Reina deck, but I decided to swap it for Special Order in the end (which may yet become Clone Chips if Knight does prove to be the bomb). The reason I cut it though, was because if you're killing ICE, you have less places to host Caissa, which means less opportunity to triple-rook a server (or double-rook and Knight the one they managed to rez on a prior run).

I am running Emergency Shutdown however - I'll let you know if it works out.



Indeed, people were squirming and not sure what the hell to do. And your prediction is not unfounded. Here in my meta, after I started playing the Dead You Jinteki list, a few guys also started playing similar decks to great result. This isn't counting the fact Jinteki is weirdly popular here in IN. So, the meta reaction: play net shield!!! Play multiple Deus X. It is quite annoying, but efficient! The aforementioned Jinteki list is going to be gross when it gains Shock and Inazuma (which will be awhile, alas). I am confident I will be seeing a more severe reaction when these become available.

About FAO, that is a very solid point. I appreciate your beacon of sanity in this sea of mass consensus gibberish, sincerely.

Funnily enough, I had 2x Special Order out last night for potentials to come in over 1 Siphon (influence-wise). My thought was I could drop back down to 1 Yog, play 2 Mimic, and not have so many redundancies. My prob here is I need the RDI to make these tactical runs higher yield. Working that hard to attack their deck with the hope it is an agenda was terrible. I felt like I had a remote stranglehold.

I wasn't running HQ much; it felt the least profitable at all times, unless on Siphon, obv. Cards were piling up in hand due to their inability efficiently build remote AND protect their deck. So I don't see Emergency Shutdown really being that clutch of a card at all, at least not in this deck. It's already soooo click intensive, so making a run on their hand just to get a Shutdown off--esp. if they were able to rez again--seems like throwing away actions and influence, to me.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Tu
South Africa
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Neksol wrote:
That's what I figured, just thought I'd ask.

Another aside - I've been building a forward-looking RP deck and all these Caissa decks lately have made me want to build Midori-Amazon servers and cackle maniacally.


I've fought Amazon decks. What's funny is the +1 cost applies once a turn to the corp side too, so it neutralises some of the discount on the Amazon rez. Midori? Sure, uninstall some rezzed Ice, pay more to put them in and rez + Rook on the biggest piece you have and boom there goes your econ planning
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Travis R. Chance
United States
Fishers
Indiana
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Tuism wrote:
Whenever I met Toby McGuire that new HB card (yes I know he's not Toby), it was highly irritating. Especially in RP. Behind a pissy useless barrier. That would guarantee that I'd draw my entire deck before I'd see a parasite or Corroder or anything. Next to another barrier. With a Sundew in.

Do I sound ranty?


I don't exactly follow here. I know the card you're referencing, but not computing the interaction that was farting down your throat.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ludovic Gauthier
France
flag msg tools
gumOnShoe wrote:

FAO: Have ice rezzed or trashed.
RUN: Have ice rezzed or access.

I'd choose the second one any day of the week. Yes FAO may open a window for you on another server, but so might RUN, RUN.

Runner's motto: be aggressive.

If you don't risk anything when running (net damages or program trash mostly), of course you should run.
But the inability of the Anarch faction to install things midrun without spending influences make FAO a win/win card because you either trash an ice or know what it is, preparing accordingly for it.
Also, as you said, cumulative increases on the rez cost makes it favorable to create holes with FAO.

BUT, I agree in a world of low cost ices and barriers FAO may do nothing out of the ordinary, and nothing a run wouldn't have done directly.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Tu
South Africa
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Action Phase wrote:
Tuism wrote:
Whenever I met Toby McGuire that new HB card (yes I know he's not Toby), it was highly irritating. Especially in RP. Behind a pissy useless barrier. That would guarantee that I'd draw my entire deck before I'd see a parasite or Corroder or anything. Next to another barrier. With a Sundew in.

Do I sound ranty?


I don't exactly follow here. I know the card you're referencing, but not computing the interaction that was farting down your throat.


The one that returns installed cards to hand. Returned card = dead Caissa. The rest of the rant was regarding RP decks shutting me out with a pissy barrier cos I couldn't draw my 3 corroders or 3 parasites And is basically unrelated
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Travis R. Chance
United States
Fishers
Indiana
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
NetEldrogo wrote:
gumOnShoe wrote:

FAO: Have ice rezzed or trashed.
RUN: Have ice rezzed or access.

I'd choose the second one any day of the week. Yes FAO may open a window for you on another server, but so might RUN, RUN.

Runner's motto: be aggressive.

If you don't risk anything when running (net damages or program trash mostly), of course you should run.
But the inability of the Anarch faction to install things midrun without spending influences make FAO a win/win card because you either trash an ice or know what it is, preparing accordingly for it.
Also, as you said, cumulative increases on the rez cost makes it favorable to create holes with FAO.

BUT, I agree in a world of low cost ices and barriers FAO may do nothing out of the ordinary, and nothing a run wouldn't have done directly.


Some bucks and Knight will get you there with reliability. It is like wearing an energy condom.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [16] | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.