Recommend
112 
 Thumb up
 Hide
107 Posts
Prev «  1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »   | 

Rahdo Runs Through» Forums » General

Subject: No more Mister Nice Guy :-) rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Richard Ham
Malta
Marsalforn
Gozo, Malta
flag msg tools
badge
CLICK THIS BEAGLE if you're looking for in-depth gameplay video run-throughs! :)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
nbread wrote:
rahdo wrote:
Could be, if I can get Jen to play it a bit more

At the very least, could you outline here the 2P alterations that you didn't like? It would be helpful for my purchasing decision.


Sure, that's what the no more mr nice guy thread is for!

The answer to your question is basically all of them. Every single change to the core game to make it 2p compatible makes the game a poorer experience, IMO.

Setup: in 2p, no starting trade routes, which means a big portion of the game that is available in 3/4p from the start is absenst for quite awhile in 2p.

Auctions: in 2p, the auction changes from a very cool Peloponnes-like system (which would work just fine for 2p I suspect) into a lousy blind bid that is very unfun (to our way of thinking). Plus, in 2p, you're effectively bidding on 4 tiles (same as a 4p game) which takes a lot of the tension away, because you'll always get something good, and makes it very fiddly (constantly having to check both sides of each auctioned tile).

Prosperity bidding: in 2p, there's no concept of 2nd place for prosperity competition at the end of an era, making the whole thing kind of flat and dull, when it's very cool in 3/4p.

Literally every modification for 2p makes the game worse. It was quite an accomplishment! I should add, people are developing 2p variants that look really good actually, but I generally don't like to spend time playtesting variants...
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Ham
Malta
Marsalforn
Gozo, Malta
flag msg tools
badge
CLICK THIS BEAGLE if you're looking for in-depth gameplay video run-throughs! :)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
BTW, so many folks have asked for this, yesterday I sat down for a couple of hours and put comments on every game I've traded away in the past. Read 'em and weep: https://www.boardgamegeek.com/collection/user/rahdo?sort=bgg...
24 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
蓝魔
United Kingdom
Bingham
Nottinghamshire
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
rahdo wrote:
BTW, so many folks have asked for this, yesterday I sat down for a couple of hours and put comments on every game I've traded away in the past. Read 'em and weep: https://www.boardgamegeek.com/collection/user/rahdo?rankobje...


Thanks for doing this.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Wood
United States
Grapevine
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ok now I need to go through and create posts to argue with every comment.... ;P JK thanks for all you do for the viewers/fans
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Ham
Malta
Marsalforn
Gozo, Malta
flag msg tools
badge
CLICK THIS BEAGLE if you're looking for in-depth gameplay video run-throughs! :)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Taloncarde wrote:
ok now I need to go through and create posts to argue with every comment.... ;P JK thanks for all you do for the viewers/fans

hehe, that's what this thread is for - I'll talk about our feelings on any of these games here, so bring it!
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Diemer
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
rahdo wrote:
BTW, so many folks have asked for this, yesterday I sat down for a couple of hours and put comments on every game I've traded away in the past. Read 'em and weep: https://www.boardgamegeek.com/collection/user/rahdo?sort=bgg...


That's awesome. Thanks!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darryl with one "R"
United States
Redmond
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
rahdo wrote:
BTW, so many folks have asked for this, yesterday I sat down for a couple of hours and put comments on every game I've traded away in the past. Read 'em and weep: https://www.boardgamegeek.com/collection/user/rahdo?sort=bgg...

I'm surprised you traded away Goa, because you seemed so positive on the game in your run-through videos. What do you think didn't work in the 2P game? I'm guessing something revealed itself with more plays.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Duff
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Most of us think Goa is a great 2 player game, so I think this one is just personal, rather than a problem with the game.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Ham
Malta
Marsalforn
Gozo, Malta
flag msg tools
badge
CLICK THIS BEAGLE if you're looking for in-depth gameplay video run-throughs! :)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Indeed, Goa does work very well with 2p, and in fact, I would say is good enough to keep soley as a 2p game. The only reason I traded it away, TBH, is because I realized if we were going to sit down and play an auction game, it would likely be Peloponnes, not Goa, so it made sense to trade it (especially since I could get more money for it and money is tight... same reason I traded Puerto Rico)

I've updated the note to be more accurate. I did bang all those out very quickly!
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chairman Sheng-ji Yang
Netherlands
Northern Mariana Islands
flag msg tools
mbmb
I enjoy "Rahdo's runthroughs" quite a bit because they provide the actual information I need. Seeing the game in action pretty much tells me what I need to know and whether I'm likely to enjoy it. I disagree plenty of times with Richard's actual opinion since our tastes in games don't overlap but I can always tell, based on the gameplay, why he liked it and why I wouldn't or vice versa. That's the most important thing, unlike in Vasel's reviews where I often have no idea, after watching, what the actual game is like.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Nelson
United States
Draper
Utah
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
rahdo wrote:
Indeed, Goa does work very well with 2p, and in fact, I would say is good enough to keep soley as a 2p game. The only reason I traded it away, TBH, is because I realized if we were going to sit down and play an auction game, it would likely be Peloponnes, not Goa, so it made sense to trade it (especially since I could get more money for it and money is tight... same reason I traded Puerto Rico)

I've updated the note to be more accurate. I did bang all those out very quickly!


I play GOA for the tech tree not the auctions. For auctions I would take Peloponnes. But for the tech tree possibilities GOA kills, hands down, and I even had all the expansions for peloponnes.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bernie Smith
United States
Portland
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Bean-Boy wrote:
I don't watch Tom Vasel's reviews because we have pretty opposite tastes enough of the time as to make them useless for me.

As far as Rahdo's video: I almost always have my mind made up before the end of the game play video.


I'm late to the party, but I think this sums it up for me.

Vasel basically zips through it, which is fine. He gives some great insights.

But with Rahdo I pretty much watch to see the gameplay, not the review. Though the review part certainly adds elements that may not have been covered. Especially if he compares it to similar games. Often times my mind is also made up prior to the final thoughts, though that's not to say the final thoughts section doesn't have an effect on me.

So for me, I guess I see as not only a 'here's how it plays' vid, but also a tutorial should I buy the game. Which may also be a greatly overlooked factor..even though it's a run-through, most seem to be focusing on the 'review' aspect.

Edit: I have to say, Rahdo really does have a way of demonstrating drawing out a theme of a game, especially when a game could fall into a trap of simple resource management..he adds just how the theme works into what you're managing. Which I find fantastic.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Julia Ziobro
United States
Bellevue
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
tormentin wrote:
I'm a super fanboy of Rahdo and his gameplays BUT i rarely watches his final thoughts, mainly because what really matters to me is the game flow, and not his opinion about it. That's why i HATE Tom Vasels preview, because it's all about a quick components/rules overview and his OPINION all over the place.


This made me LOL. I watch the final thoughts FIRST... Rahdo and Jen and I are quite similar in our gaming tastes, and I can get a sense very quickly from final thoughts if it's likely to be a game I like. If it does appeal to me, THEN I go watch - well, really, LISTEN - to the run throughs. (I hate watching videos (no offense) and when I hear Richard say something like "you can see that these pieces move over here in a way different than you might expect" I switch tabs, rewind 5 seconds, and actually WATCH that bit.) The rest of the time, I listen while reading something else. Am I the only one that does this?

The games Rahdo and Jen DON'T like in final thoughts go one of two three ways... either it was a two-player problem that's unlikely to be an issue for us (our gaming group is usually 3-5 people) and I'll go consume the runthrough, or it's a mechanic or dynamic that they don't like but I don't mind, and I'll consume the runthrough, or it's something they don't like that I also hate and I can thank Rahdo for saving me $50 and hours of my life.
JAZ
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stephane Bassiaux
Belgium
Brussels
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
JuliaZ wrote:
This made me LOL. I watch the final thoughts FIRST... Rahdo and Jen and I are quite similar in our gaming tastes, and I can get a sense very quickly from final thoughts if it's likely to be a game I like. If it does appeal to me, THEN I go watch - well, really, LISTEN - to the run throughs. (I hate watching videos (no offense) and when I hear Richard say something like "you can see that these pieces move over here in a way different than you might expect" I switch tabs, rewind 5 seconds, and actually WATCH that bit.) The rest of the time, I listen while reading something else. Am I the only one that does this?

The games Rahdo and Jen DON'T like in final thoughts go one of two three ways... either it was a two-player problem that's unlikely to be an issue for us (our gaming group is usually 3-5 people) and I'll go consume the runthrough, or it's a mechanic or dynamic that they don't like but I don't mind, and I'll consume the runthrough, or it's something they don't like that I also hate and I can thank Rahdo for saving me $50 and hours of my life.
JAZ


Exact same with me Julia, you're not alone
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darryl with one "R"
United States
Redmond
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I just noticed that 7 Wonders Duel didn't make the cut, which is pretty surprising to me. I suspect there may be a spirited discussion about the "take that-ness" of the game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Ham
Malta
Marsalforn
Gozo, Malta
flag msg tools
badge
CLICK THIS BEAGLE if you're looking for in-depth gameplay video run-throughs! :)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
nbread wrote:
I just noticed that 7 Wonders Duel didn't make the cut, which is pretty surprising to me. I suspect there may be a spirited discussion about the "take that-ness" of the game.

Yeah... gameplay so awesome, and so needlessly mean spirited. Biggest heartbreaker of the year
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Guillaume
Canada
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
nbread wrote:
I just noticed that 7 Wonders Duel didn't make the cut, which is pretty surprising to me. I suspect there may be a spirited discussion about the "take that-ness" of the game.

Yeah, it seems to me the game is as much about blocking your opponent than it is about picking the good cards for you.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darryl with one "R"
United States
Redmond
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
kelendil wrote:
nbread wrote:
I just noticed that 7 Wonders Duel didn't make the cut, which is pretty surprising to me. I suspect there may be a spirited discussion about the "take that-ness" of the game.

Yeah, it seems to me the game is as much about blocking your opponent than it is about picking the good cards for you.

There's some truth to that. But I think it's also fair to say that the 2P version of the original 7 Wonders is largely about dumping cards on the free city that will hinder your opponent. Perhaps the difference is in the degree of how much the actions hurt the opponent (i.e., blocking vs. merely slowing down).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Burgess
United Kingdom
Cambridge
Cambridgeshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
rahdo wrote:
nbread wrote:
I just noticed that 7 Wonders Duel didn't make the cut, which is pretty surprising to me. I suspect there may be a spirited discussion about the "take that-ness" of the game.

Yeah... gameplay so awesome, and so needlessly mean spirited. Biggest heartbreaker of the year


I'd be interested to know what you mean by "needlessly mean spirited". Because it's a two-player game, it seems like it's "needfully" mean spirited. What I mean is, you have to trade blows, because it's just you versus the other player. With a larger player count, it makes sense to collaborate with some players to gain an advantage over others. With a two-player game, not so much.

Of course, I understand that 7 Wonders can be played two-player, and I agree that that's a great way to play, but then it becomes a game of how to use the free city to your advantage and to the disadvantage of the other player - it's still trading blows.

Full disclosure: my copy of 7 Wonders: Duel is set up and waiting, but I've yet to play my first game. Your run-through made me even more excited for it, I have to say - looks like our sort of thing, so I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryan Thunkd
United States
Florence
MA
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MercifulBiscuit wrote:
rahdo wrote:
nbread wrote:
I just noticed that 7 Wonders Duel didn't make the cut, which is pretty surprising to me. I suspect there may be a spirited discussion about the "take that-ness" of the game.

Yeah... gameplay so awesome, and so needlessly mean spirited. Biggest heartbreaker of the year


I'd be interested to know what you mean by "needlessly mean spirited". Because it's a two-player game, it seems like it's "needfully" mean spirited. What I mean is, you have to trade blows, because it's just you versus the other player.
There are a lot of games where you don't trade blows, but instead try to build your own thing better than the other person. Or try to do something faster than the other person. Where the challenge is doing your own stuff better, without having to attack the other person.

From a purely victory point perspective, "I build my tower up 12 points" is essentially the same as "I tear your tower down 12 points" but on the Rahdo-Care-Bear scale the latter is a very different, and much more mean-spirited, type of thing.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Oliver Koenig
Germany
Fuerth
Bayern
flag msg tools
badge
Tom is crazy!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There is absolutely nothing mean-spirited in that game IMO. My mom loves that game. It's just Rahdo's "game group dynamics" ..
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Burgess
United Kingdom
Cambridge
Cambridgeshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thunkd wrote:
There are a lot of games where you don't trade blows, but instead try to build your own thing better than the other person. Or try to do something faster than the other person. Where the challenge is doing your own stuff better, without having to attack the other person.


Whilst this is true, I guess that really depends on your point-of-view. If I'm building my thing better than you, that's likely because I've taken an action you didn't, and probably means that it's an action that you cannot now take, at least for the short-term. I'm think of Agricola: ACBAS, for example. It's still trading blows, and can feel equally mean-spirited. Depending on my mood and my opponent, I've either revelled in doing this or deliberately avoided doing it.

Thunkd wrote:
From a purely victory point perspective, "I build my tower up 12 points" is essentially the same as "I tear your tower down 12 points" but on the Rahdo-Care-Bear scale the latter is a very different, and much more mean-spirited, type of thing.


Agreed - I can see how one gives a better feeling than the other. But I don't see it as the game being mean-spirited in either case.

Btw, I've now played my first game of 7 Wonders: Duel with my son and can appreciate how this game can be mean - but like I said, there were several times when I deliberately avoided a certain choice of action because I didn't want to stick it to him, and I still ended up winning on points.

So I guess it's in the eye of the beholder. But I'm still interested in what changes Rahdo (or anyone else) are thinking of when saying that this is "needlessly" mean. How would you make it not mean, whilst retaining the 7 Wonders nature of the game, and keeping it just as good?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryan Thunkd
United States
Florence
MA
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MercifulBiscuit wrote:
Thunkd wrote:
There are a lot of games where you don't trade blows, but instead try to build your own thing better than the other person. Or try to do something faster than the other person. Where the challenge is doing your own stuff better, without having to attack the other person.


Whilst this is true, I guess that really depends on your point-of-view. If I'm building my thing better than you, that's likely because I've taken an action you didn't, and probably means that it's an action that you cannot now take, at least for the short-term. I'm think of Agricola: ACBAS, for example.
I don't disagree, but for some people taking a spot they wanted doesn't feel like an attack. Whereas making them lose something they already had, by taking vp's from them or destroying something they've done, feels like an attack in a way that taking something they hadn't yet gotten doesn't.


MercifulBiscuit wrote:
It's still trading blows, and can feel equally mean-spirited.
It's a perception thing.

MercifulBiscuit wrote:
So I guess it's in the eye of the beholder.
Entirely! And I think Rahdo and Jen tend to view messing with things they've already done as much worse than denying them things they wanted to do.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Busha
China
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
I'd just like to jump in and say that part of the perception is the idea of optimal play.

I agree that my destroying your 10-point building is the same as my building a 10-point building and locking you out from it. That's taking versus making, which can be perceived as mean, but the math works both ways.

What I hate is when I can get a 10-point swing for destroying your thing or be peaceful and get 3 points. The idea I have to handicap myself because I don't want to hurt the person I'm playing with is really frustrating. I want to be competitive, but I also know a game is just a game and I don't want to hurt them.

I think that, in addition to perceptions of what is building and what is breaking, lead to the idea of meanness.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Burgess
United Kingdom
Cambridge
Cambridgeshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
@Bryan: Right.

@Brian: making vs. taking is a good point. I guess one way, if you prevent someone from taking a certain move, they're still in control and can simply choose another option. But if you destroy something they've done, they can't choose to go back and make a different choice. So it's certainly different (and meaner) in that sense.

So the question of "needlessly" remains - how would this particular game be changed to be less (apparently) mean whilst (probably) retaining the feel and quality?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Prev «  1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.