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Subject: Paying one gold to get 2 gold rss

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Ken Thibodeau
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I assume this a valid play?:

You're on the space right before the "15" on the progress track (or special action track). You have 1 brown AP. Can you use one gold to go beyond the last space in order to earn 2 gold?
 
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Garry Rice
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certainly.
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brian
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fardoche wrote:
I assume this a valid play?:

You're on the space right before the "15" on the progress track (or special action track). You have 1 brown AP. Can you use one gold to go beyond the last space in order to earn 2 gold?

Yes, I don't see why not. You pay gold to get the extra action point. The action point would put you over so you get 2 Gold.
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Jonathan Degann
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My strong opinion- which everyone in our group agrees with - is No.

"If a player's disc reaches or has reached the end of the cannon, progress or special action track *without the player being able to use all available action points that phase* he receives 2 gold.

The available action points are those coming from the cubes. In fact, later on the rules say "The cubes in the action space determine how many action points are *available* for each action during a phase.

The gold you spend is for action points beyond those available, and would not count toward pushing you over the end of the track.
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brian
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Jonathan Degann wrote:
"If a player's disc reaches or has reached the end of the cannon, progress or special action track *without the player being able to use all available action points that phase* he receives 2 gold.

The available action points are those coming from the cubes. In fact, later on the rules say "The cubes in the action space determine how many action points are *available* for each action during a phase.

I agree with you so far...

Quote:
The gold you spend is for action points beyond those available, and would not count toward pushing you over the end of the track.

...but the rules go on further to say this:

Quote:
The cubes in the action space determine how many
actions points are available for each action during a
phase. For each 1 gold a player spends during a phase,
he gains 1 additional action point.


There is no further distinction between action points gained by the cubes and action points gained by gold. They become one and the same.

So saying there is only 1 AP available from the cubes, you can buy a 2nd AP by spending a gold. On the 14 space, the 2 APs puts him to 16. The track is capped at 15 so he gets 2 Gold as compensation.

I don't think it is a matter of opinion, the rules lay it out.
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Jonathan Degann
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The rule we both quote specifies the action points available - which will yield gold if they exceed space on the track. Spending gold goes above and beyond those "available". You can gain action points with gold, but they must be used as action points.

The idea of spending 1 gold to earn 2 is just dickin' around with the rules, and not in their spirit. The intent of the rule is to offer compensation for action points that would otherwise have been wasted.
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Garry Rice
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Jonathan Degann wrote:

The idea of spending 1 gold to earn 2 is just dickin' around with the rules, and not in their spirit. The intent of the rule is to offer compensation for action points that would otherwise have been wasted.


Where in the rulebook does it say that is the intent of the rule? As I see it, the intent is to allow the player to use his gold as he best sees fit to advance his standing in the game...not compensation per se. Just my two cents...by all means play it as you see fit.
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Neil Christiansen
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I sort of agree with Jonathan about the spirit of the rules. It has come up in our games and we have allowed it since we find nothing explicit enough to deny it. But it strikes me more of gaming the system than what is intended.
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Jonathan Degann
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Gary, the rule comes up in the context of "what happens when there are more AP's than you can use?" In this sense, you can infer the rule's intent.
 
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The Dave
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Getting to the end of the track and exploiting the gold generating capability of that is clearly a design feature of the game. I imagine that one could craft a pretty decent strategy that utilizes this as way to generate gold and thus VP. Thinking of it that way, I think that using one gold to generate two is perfectly legit and within the spirit of the rules, especially considering it can be done, per player, at most three times (one for each track). Once you go past the end, you're at the end, and then you can just use any action points to generate 2 gold. It's not like you're exploiting some bug - you can, at most, 3 times during the game, spend 1 gold to get 2 gold. That's a net of 3 victory points...I don't think this breaks the spirit of the rules at all.
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brian
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Jonathan Degann wrote:
The rule we both quote specifies the action points available - which will yield gold if they exceed space on the track. Spending gold goes above and beyond those "available". You can gain action points with gold, but they must be used as action points.

They are being used as Action points. And in this case they are being used to exceed the track. What you are saying is that "additional" points aren't "available" and that simply isn't true.

A clear rule would also be needed that says you can't spend Gold if it would exceed the track. There is no limit to how much gold you can spend except for how much gold you have.

Quote:
The idea of spending 1 gold to earn 2 is just dickin' around with the rules, and not in their spirit.

No, it's not. We are talking a limited number of times that it can be used. You only have so many tracks that can be exceeded. You are further restricted in the specific case coming up that you are going to be 1 point shy of exceeding the tracks end. Because why would you spend 2 gold to get 2 gold in return, and you definitely aren't going tot spend 3 gold to get 2 gold. It is an option of the game that rewards you for putting yourself in a position to get these limited points.

Quote:
The intent of the rule is to offer compensation for action points that would otherwise have been wasted.

I disagree. This is not the complete intent of the rule. More than getting compensation, it is storing up future action points. If you then don't spend those points, the compensation becomes VP at the end.

I would think the more obvious intent is Feld is going to allow us to manipulate the random element in the game. That is the purpose of gold: to get that extra point here and there. When you really need to buy the 6-village piece and only 4 cubes of one color came up, for example.
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brian
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Jonathan Degann wrote:
Gary, the rule comes up in the context of "what happens when there are more AP's than you can use?" In this sense, you can infer the rule's intent.

No, it comes up in how to "use gold" and the intent you infer is not there.
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Neil Christiansen
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Isn't there a progress tile or something that gives extra for coins at the end?
 
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Larry Rice
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chris1nd wrote:
Isn't there a progress tile or something that gives extra for coins at the end?


yes.
 
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Neil Christiansen
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That is why it annoyed me. "Winner"gained like 6 point off bumping with coins then won by 4.

Grrr!
 
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Larry Rice
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Oh yeah, coin strategy can be quite valid if you get it going...
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Rogue Marechal
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Jonathan Degann wrote:

The idea of spending 1 gold to earn 2 is just dickin' around with the rules, and not in their spirit.

I agree with this. But I also agree nothing in the rules strongly indicates that it would be disallowed. When this came up with my group we didn't allow it, but that's just the way we collectively decided it was fair to rule... Gaming games, allowed or not, isn't our thing but I don't think there's anything wrong ruling it otherwise.

ColtsFan76 wrote:

why would you spend 2 gold to get 2 gold in return, and you definitely aren't going tot spend 3 gold to get 2 gold.

Because if you need to spend 2 or 3 gold to reach the end of the progress track to pick up a tile that you absolutely want or one you benefit denying your opponent you'd want to minimise your spending to make that stretch by spending one extra Gold, if you have it available... granted it may not come up often you are restricting the situations this can be exploited too much. Not that I think it makes a difference mind you, we are still talking a maximum of 3 times (3VP plus eventual benefit of having that extra gold on subsequent turn).
 
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Robert Crawford
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Bumping an old thread because this came up last night. 2 separate times I had the chance to do a different version of this:

One time, the cubes were exactly enough to get me to 12 cannons. So I spent 1 gold to get 2 gold back (after finding this thread and reading through it).

The other time, the cubes were enough to get me to 11 cannons. So I spent 2 gold to get 2 gold back; basically just giving me 1 free cannon.

I agree with most of the replies here; the rules pretty clearly allow it, yet at the same time it feels like it shouldn't be allowed. But it would require some awkward exception wording to make it not allowed. It would be great to have a response from Feld on this subject; if this was something that ever came up in his testing; if it was intended to be allowed or just an oversight/loophole.
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