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Twilight Struggle» Forums » Rules

Subject: NORAD played with no Canada rss

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L Gravel
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What happens if the USSR plays NORAD but the US does not currently control Canada? Is the card discarded without taking effect, per rule 5.2, second bullet point ("a condition expressed in the Event has not been met")?

Or does it technically take effect per rule 5.2, fourth bullet point ("the event results in no effect")? In which case since it is a permanent event, it remains in effect, and if the US player later controls Canada, then he begins receiving the benefit?

In other words, is the Canada portion of the text on the card, "If the US controls Canada...", a pre-condition for the event to take effect, or a condition for the permanent event to provide benefit?
 
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Pete Hooper
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Condition for the benefit, not for playing the event.

You can play it at any time. You check whether the DEFCON status moved to 2 and for US control of Canada at the end of each AR.
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Paul Edgar
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As a follow up question

NORAD states 'this event cancelled by Quagmire'

Does that mean that it is cancelled and goes to the discard pile to be reshuffled into the deck - as opposed to removed from play for the rest of the game.

Effictivly Quagmire puts it into the discard pile - it can reappear after a reshuffle and be reactivated (?)

thanks
 
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Jacovis
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Paul_Edgar_au wrote:
As a follow up question

NORAD states 'this event cancelled by Quagmire'

Does that mean that it is cancelled and goes to the discard pile to be reshuffled into the deck - as opposed to removed from play for the rest of the game.

Effictivly Quagmire puts it into the discard pile - it can reappear after a reshuffle and be reactivated (?)

thanks


No, NORAD is removed from the game once played. The effect lingers, and is canceled if Quagmire is played.

Cheers!
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Riku Riekkinen
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1) NORAD takes effect (NORAD starts to be when the card is played no mayyert what)
2) NORAD activates, if DEFCON lowers to 2 during AR (not headline) & US controls Canada
3) NORAD is cancelled (but not blocked) by Quagmire (if quagmire is played before NORAD, NORAD stays in effect until the end)
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Paul Edgar
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thanks
 
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Froggy McFrogface
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When green is all there is to be, it could make you wonder why. But why wonder? I'm green, and it'll do fine: it's beautiful, and I think it's what I want to be.
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Hmm...I always assumed the event was conditional: If...then. We've always played it that if the condition is not met, the event cannot be played (and is goes into the discard pile rather than out of the game.) I won't argue whether or not this is right, but doesn't it state somewhere in the rules that if conditional events aren't met, they can not happen?
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Michael Kiefte
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LennyS wrote:
Hmm...I always assumed the event was conditional: If...then. We've always played it that if the condition is not met, the event cannot be played (and is goes into the discard pile rather than out of the game.) I won't argue whether or not this is right, but doesn't it state somewhere in the rules that if conditional events aren't met, they can not happen?


NORAD is the only exception. The problem with the wording is that the "if" in this case applies to the moment at the end of a round when DEFCON is reduced, not whether the card is playable. It's the only card like that.

It's been discussed extensively in the past. I think one of the main discussions is here:
Cards with If
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L Gravel
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mkiefte wrote:
NORAD is the only exception.


Michael, thanks for linking to that other thread. From what I can tell, the only basis for you making this statement is that you make it confidently, and based on your own authority. You don't refer to a rule or a FAQ.

With respect, what is the basis of your authority? Are you a designer or a playtester? Are you with GMT Games? (I do not intend this in a provoking way; I really don't know.)

Jim
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Pete Hooper
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loosegravel wrote:
mkiefte wrote:
NORAD is the only exception.


Michael, thanks for linking to that other thread. From what I can tell, the only basis for you making this statement is that you make it confidently, and based on your own authority. You don't refer to a rule or a FAQ.

With respect, what is the basis of your authority? Are you a designer or a playtester? Are you with GMT Games? (I do not intend this in a provoking way; I really don't know.)

Jim


If I'm not mistaken, he wrote (and maintains) the VASSAL module for TS, and is one of the closest people you'll find to a "rules authority" who wasn't involved in the actual development of the game.

You can also put plenty of faith in Riku Riekkinen's answers. He was a playtester on the Deluxe Edition, according to the credits.
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L Gravel
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Thanks, Pete. Those are good credentials.
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Michael Kiefte
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loosegravel wrote:
mkiefte wrote:
NORAD is the only exception.


Michael, thanks for linking to that other thread. From what I can tell, the only basis for you making this statement is that you make it confidently, and based on your own authority. You don't refer to a rule or a FAQ.

With respect, what is the basis of your authority? Are you a designer or a playtester? Are you with GMT Games? (I do not intend this in a provoking way; I really don't know.)

Jim


The only real authority I have is that I remember this being debated a lot and finally being resolved. I've also played quite a lot.

Pete points out that I did the TS module which enforces most of the rules. Because of that, I pay extra special attention to rulings.
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L Gravel
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Michael, thanks for the help, and thanks for being a good sport.
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Froggy McFrogface
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Yes, thank you for the clarification. I love this game, and do want to play it right.
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Froggy McFrogface
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When green is all there is to be, it could make you wonder why. But why wonder? I'm green, and it'll do fine: it's beautiful, and I think it's what I want to be.
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Jacovis wrote:
Paul_Edgar_au wrote:
As a follow up question

NORAD states 'this event cancelled by Quagmire'

Does that mean that it is cancelled and goes to the discard pile to be reshuffled into the deck - as opposed to removed from play for the rest of the game.

Effictivly Quagmire puts it into the discard pile - it can reappear after a reshuffle and be reactivated (?)

thanks


No, NORAD is removed from the game once played. The effect lingers, and is canceled if Quagmire is played.

Cheers!


Clarification: should this card be asterisked * and should it have a chit to show it is in effect?
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Riku Riekkinen
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LennyS wrote:
Clarification: should this card be asterisked * and should it have a chit to show it is in effect?


Yes
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Michael Kiefte
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LennyS wrote:

Clarification: should this card be asterisked * and should it have a chit to show it is in effect?


Some people put a US 1-influence marker on DEFCON-2 as a reminder.
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