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Subject: Time of the doctor -- Spoilers rss

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Virre Linwendil Annergård
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Well after the disapointment of that we certanly need a thread for it

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Was highly disappointing after the high that was The Day of the Doctor. There is some good things in it, like how the cyberman head talks like K9 (affermative) and how the ageing Doctor was mirroring earlier reincranation to end up with the first one. Well at least we saw both Throughtons Doctor and Willam Hartnell and Moffat could make his views on the different reincrantions and how many there where, and fixing it with a new set. He also have Galifrey avalible for later use.

But the acctual story telling, I did not find griping and a bit easy to count out in advance, to little surprises. Also again there was possiblities to have discusions between women that was not about men. Was there any of them that was not about guys, it's like Claras familys only goal is to merry her off or something.

Oh yes there is a town called Christmas and a Christmas dinner but it is not really built around and the dinner could be any family holiday, and the town is just a clear call-out to Mercy and could be anything. I guess the fact that the crack took an angelic form is kind of a christmas reference but no.
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Boaty McBoatface
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Carry on Doctor

Was a disappointment from start to finish (though I think Matt was good).

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Too many enemies (which means they could not really focus on any one central menace), a pointlessly tacked on Chritmessy bit (though I liked the idea of the village (but not the unneeded truth field), not enough actual story, A huge (overwhelming?) illogicality (exactly why would a wooden(How does a wooden robot work?) Cyberman use a flame thrower?). A waste and a mess


So much better was Mark Gattis's The tractate middoth.
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Oh good grief.

It wasn't great but it was good and I thought it did well to further set-up the search for Gallifrey. I thought the Doctor facing his actual death was done well and was an interesting narrative. I thought the Hartnell refs where very cool. Liked the cyberman head as well which further highlighted the mortality issues. I've read a ton of whining on how the regen was handled, I thought it was fine. The actual transition between MS and PC was quick but I think that further highlights the new regen cycle.

As far as the comment about women, oy vey, this is not a social science documentary. It is a silly episodic TV show about a time-travelling alien. The conversations where all fine, the interaction between the grandmother and Clara was sweet and that was fine for me (and ALSO further highlighted the mortality issues that the show DID present).

I get that fans expect the moon, but honestly, if you simply take a step back and just enjoy it for what it is, it was a decent if not great episode.

I say again...


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Matthew M
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That is damning with faint praise if I've ever heard it. A regeneration episode that only cracks "decent" for the most forgiving of fans is a very poor showing indeed.

Personally - I fell asleep halfway through the third act. This wasn't an episode so much as it was a non-clipshow clipshow. Maybe a story could have been crafted that also acted as a "greatest hits" parade like this one was trying to be, but this episode didn't find it.

-MMM
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Octavian wrote:
That is damning with faint praise if I've ever heard it. A regeneration episode that only cracks "decent" for the most forgiving of fans is a very poor showing indeed.

Personally - I fell asleep halfway through the third act. This wasn't an episode so much as it was a non-clipshow clipshow. Maybe a story could have been crafted that also acted as a "greatest hits" parade like this one was trying to be, but this episode didn't find it.

-MMM


Gods, honestly...

Fine, let me clarify. It was not my favorite episode ever but I thought it was an entertaining episode which I enjoyed. I thought MS was given a nice send off, and it left me intrigued to how PC was going to pick up the mantle.
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Xander Fulton
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Pretty awful, IMHO.

What I *really* don't understand is
Spoiler (click to reveal)
...what is the big deal with Gallifrey not being allowed to come back? How would THAT 'start the time war' again??

Maybe I'm missing something, but...the Daleks got out of the time lock. FLEETS of Dalek ships are around, Daleks appear to have their full empire back (complete with asylum worlds), blockading planets, etc. Oh, and conquering the galaxy and all.

So...what part of 'the time war' ISN'T already happening?

It'd be like some British secret weapon that plucks England and Germany into a parallel universe in the middle of World War 2. Sure, that basically ends the war...but eventually, Germany gets out of it, and begins resuming the war. What, pray tell, is the point THEN in leaving England stuck in the parallel universe? It's not like the war would be any MORE 'on' with it back...

So the entire point of the episode just seems...idiotic.
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Virre Linwendil Annergård
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Talking about the tropes against women (which is problematic in a modern show, even if it is silly because things such as identification, consumers and rolemodels, the Doctor is a role-model and have always been, I mean the show was created to be educational and a little bit of it is still there)

so the ass-slap in the beginning that I missed is a new term of bad taste.
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Octavian wrote:
A regeneration episode that only cracks "decent" for the most forgiving of fans is a very poor showing indeed.


Other than David Tennant's somewhat* over the top regeneration episode, which regeneration episodes do you think it compared very badly to?

*understatement
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virre wrote:
Talking about the tropes against women (which is problematic in a modern show, even if it is silly because things such as identification, consumers and rolemodels, the Doctor is a role-model and have always been, I mean the show was created to be educational and a little bit of it is still there)

so the ass-slap in the beginning that I missed is a new term of bad taste.


Right, and until a a few weeks ago we thought he was responsible for a genocide and has indeed been responsible foe multiple deaths but playing Clara's boyfriend in a very alien manner is the tipping point for you. Ok. Each to their own.
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Virre Linwendil Annergård
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vandemonium wrote:
virre wrote:
Talking about the tropes against women (which is problematic in a modern show, even if it is silly because things such as identification, consumers and rolemodels, the Doctor is a role-model and have always been, I mean the show was created to be educational and a little bit of it is still there)

so the ass-slap in the beginning that I missed is a new term of bad taste.


Right, and until a a few weeks ago we thought he was responsible for a genocide and has indeed been responsible foe multiple deaths but playing Clara's boyfriend in a very alien manner is the tipping point for you. Ok. Each to their own.


That have a plot point, there is no plot point in random ass-slapping and force-kissing others but we might to break off this discusion as indeed to each there own and we are probably close to getting this thread moved.
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virre wrote:
vandemonium wrote:
virre wrote:
Talking about the tropes against women (which is problematic in a modern show, even if it is silly because things such as identification, consumers and rolemodels, the Doctor is a role-model and have always been, I mean the show was created to be educational and a little bit of it is still there)

so the ass-slap in the beginning that I missed is a new term of bad taste.


Right, and until a a few weeks ago we thought he was responsible for a genocide and has indeed been responsible foe multiple deaths but playing Clara's boyfriend in a very alien manner is the tipping point for you. Ok. Each to their own.


That have a plot point, there is no plot point in random ass-slapping and force-kissing others but we might to break off this discusion as indeed to each there own and we are probably close to getting this thread moved.


There was a plot point. CLARA asked him to come play her boyfriend. Which he did, in his usual goofy, over-the-top manner. Good grief, this is hypersensitivity taken to an extreme.
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Boaty McBoatface
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vandemonium wrote:
virre wrote:
vandemonium wrote:
virre wrote:
Talking about the tropes against women (which is problematic in a modern show, even if it is silly because things such as identification, consumers and rolemodels, the Doctor is a role-model and have always been, I mean the show was created to be educational and a little bit of it is still there)

so the ass-slap in the beginning that I missed is a new term of bad taste.


Right, and until a a few weeks ago we thought he was responsible for a genocide and has indeed been responsible foe multiple deaths but playing Clara's boyfriend in a very alien manner is the tipping point for you. Ok. Each to their own.


That have a plot point, there is no plot point in random ass-slapping and force-kissing others but we might to break off this discusion as indeed to each there own and we are probably close to getting this thread moved.


There was a plot point. CLARA asked him to come play her boyfriend. Which he did, in his usual goofy, over-the-top manner. Good grief, this is hypersensitivity taken to an extreme.
All it needed was for the granny to be played by Barbara Windsor, and it would have got the feel just about right.
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J.L. Robert
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I was not impressed with it.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
The farewell parade of antagonists, and the entire setup of this little town besieged, seemed contrived. I didn't particularly care for Clara being the only device to maintain a steady timestream...I couldn't tell if the villagers were living, aging and dying or just living on forever. They could have cast a young girl with RED HAIR to mimic young Amelia. The regeneration "reload" had an "Insert Coin to Continue" feel to it, but I'm okay with the actual regen sequence into our next Doctor. And I got a creepy feeling that Clara's grandmother will be a future device by Moffatt (as in it will eventually be revealed that she is, in fact, Clara herself).
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Brian Bankler
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J.L.Robert wrote:
I was not impressed with it.

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(as in it will eventually be revealed that she is, in fact, Clara herself).


I fear you are correct.

I was hugely pro-Moffat when 11 started, and now I wish he would resign as showrunner and simply write 1-2 scripts a year (where his true talent lies) instead of season-long arcs which start well and sputter out.

TotD typifies recent Moffat ... lots of wonderful touches on a meh story that ends with a deus ex machina. (And again, he basically violates a rule the story has set and handwaves it off. To be fair, the rule he violates wasn't set in this story, or by Moffat).

But Smith remains my favorite doctor, although I have high hopes for Capaldi.
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Tim
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Bankler wrote:
J.L.Robert wrote:
I was not impressed with it.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
(as in it will eventually be revealed that she is, in fact, Clara herself).


I fear you are correct.

I was hugely pro-Moffat when 11 started, and now I wish he would resign as showrunner and simply write 1-2 scripts a year (where his true talent lies) instead of season-long arcs which start well and sputter out.


Wow. So on the nose. As soon as the episode ended, I turned to my wife and said, "I think it's time for Moffat to step down."

The show was definitely at it's peak during the final season or two of Davies run, and the first season of Moffat's run, but I think he maybe just hit a wall. He's a masterful storyteller, but sometimes you just need to inject some fresh ideas.

I was really disappointed. I was pretty disappointed by this entire season, to be honest. The episode was okay, it wasn't *bad* or anything, but it was underwhelming enough that halfway through I was already thinking about what I would do when the episode ended.
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Yeah... it sucked.

That is a strong word. For another show, it might have been "average". But for Doctor Who, especially for a regeneration episode, I expect something great. This was just bad.

A great big mess of storyline threads that have been set up over three seasons which suddenly must be tied up. Frankly, I could only make sense of about half of it. That's probably because when the show has a bunch of yet-unresolved mysteries, when they try to resolve all of them over the span of about half an hour, they are bound to left many questions unanswered. The viewer needs to think a bit about such answers, but does not get the time to let one answer sink in, since the next two are already presented.

The big problem here is that Doctor Who generally is not about the plots. It is about the charisma of the protagonist. An episode that focuses on a plot needs a REALLY good plot to make up for the fact that it is not about the protagonist playing around. But this episode was neither about the protagonist, nor about the plot -- it was about something like a dozen plots which are all in the past but which Moffat thinks need resurfacing again.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
I mean: bringing back the Silence and then let them play a bit part? Bringing back the dimensional tear even when the Doctor closed it off before and it had already come to a satisfying conclusion? Bringing back the Dalek conversion of people, but now allowing people to break their programming without a good reason? Bringing back the whole weak "Doctor who?" device and again not seeing a reason to take it any further than "no need to know his name"? Rushing forward the whole "last generation" thing (The Doctor should have at least one remaining, but now he suddenly says that he has none) and then resolving it by the Time Lords (who are in another dimension ferchrissakes) just granting him some more? And why? They are not getting anything out of it. In fact, if I remember well they don't like the Doctor very much, and they are frozen in time, so how they can act is beyond me. Need I go on?

The episode should have been called "The Time of Moffat" and then let him regenerate at the end. Into someone who is willing to do less in one episode, but make it more original and take his time for it. If Moffat gets one more season, I am afraid he will bring this whole reboot thing to an end.
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I have been disappointed (pretty much) with all of Moffats tenure. Matt had (I think) huge potential, but was served with awful scripts and naff story arcs (in fact I can only think of one really good story from the whole of Matt's time, Cold War). This just remained me of Colin Bakers era, but with added sauce.
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Flyboy Connor wrote:
Yeah... it sucked.

That is a strong word. For another show, it might have been "average". But for Doctor Who, especially for a regeneration episode, I expect something great. This was just bad.

A great big mess of storyline threads that have been set up over three seasons which suddenly must be tied up. Frankly, I could only make sense of about half of it. That's probably because when the show has a bunch of yet-unresolved mysteries, when they try to resolve all of them over the span of about half an hour, they are bound to left many questions unanswered. The viewer needs to think a bit about such answers, but does not get the time to let one answer sink in, since the next two are already presented.

The big problem here is that Doctor Who generally is not about the plots. It is about the charisma of the protagonist. An episode that focuses on a plot needs a REALLY good plot to make up for the fact that it is not about the protagonist playing around. But this episode was neither about the protagonist, nor about the plot -- it was about something like a dozen plots which are all in the past but which Moffat thinks need resurfacing again.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
I mean: bringing back the Silence and then let them play a bit part? Bringing back the dimensional tear even when the Doctor closed it off before and it had already come to a satisfying conclusion? Bringing back the Dalek conversion of people, but now allowing people to break their programming without a good reason? Bringing back the whole weak "Doctor who?" device and again not seeing a reason to take it any further than "no need to know his name"? Rushing forward the whole "last generation" thing (The Doctor should have at least one remaining, but now he suddenly says that he has none) and then resolving it by the Time Lords (who are in another dimension ferchrissakes) just granting him some more? And why? They are not getting anything out of it. In fact, if I remember well they don't like the Doctor very much, and they are frozen in time, so how they can act is beyond me. Need I go on?

The episode should have been called "The Time of Moffat" and then let him regenerate at the end. Into someone who is willing to do less in one episode, but make it more original and take his time for it. If Moffat gets one more season, I am afraid he will bring this whole reboot thing to an end.
Yes, it had an oddly rushed feel to it. It was almost as if Matt's leaving surprised everyone and they just had to have a finale. Yet there is no reason that they could not have continued those threads with the new Dr, it's not as if they are in his contract or something.
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A lot of adult anger targetted towards a kids show.
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I know there was a lot of loose ends they wanted to tie up before the end so that's why it felt rushed. Honestly, I didn't love the episode but then again I've never liked the Christmas episodes generally.
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Definitely a disappoint for me. It felt rather like a rushed montage of clips with a shred of a story tenuously holding it all together. I thought at least the regeneration scene would save it*, and it ALMOST did. That is, right until the split-second insta regeneration that completely deadened the emotion of the scene. Geeze, give a a little time to mourn with a proper regeneration scene. RIVER'S regeneration sequence was longer.

Also, is anyone tired of the "save the universe" trope? It was okay for a while, and now it's just like "oh look, the universe is in danger. Wow. Much peril. So scary." The smaller-scale episodes with smaller stakes tend to work better for me - look at Vincent and the Doctor for a good example of that.

They did tie up a lotta loose ends. Here's to hoping they take advantage of that clean slate in series 8.

All in all, for me. Matt Smith deserved so much more.

*like it did in The End of Time, which was otherwise an episode I've tried to erase from my memory.
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Wow, you Doctor Who nerds really take your Doctor Who seriously.



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fightcitymayor wrote:
Wow, you Doctor Who nerds really take your Doctor Who seriously.



It's chewing.
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Lots of good comments in here and an awful lot I agree with, but I thought I'd throw in my two cents as well because I'd like to do something that nobody else here has so far: talked about what they liked from it.

It might not have been much, but I liked some history on the Silence. Sure it didn't really reveal anything we didn't already know (religious order), but the more you flesh out something I like to hope the more you might do with them in the future and I'd enjoy more Silence.

While being a bit sappy, I enjoyed the parting lines for Matt. Sometimes it felt more like the actor than the Doctor, but I'm pretty okay with that. I'd go so far as I'd even not mind that being a new standard, except for the fact I'd fear future regenerations would say basically the same thing over again.

A mishmash of the big villains was a bit silly, but it did put them in a pecking order and while Daleks of course are number one, it was interesting to see the Silence as number two. (missed opportunity on a Dalek forgetting a Silence though)

Far as some of the bad, only one thing was missed mention so far, at least to me. When I think of a regeneration episode, I want the current Doctor to be his own true self and shine, one more time. And that's why I didn't like the old Eleventh. Matt normally is an animated, flourishing energetic Doctor and for much of the episode it was stolen away. Yes, it was interesting to see the Doctor contemplate death, but this was just not the way to do it. Its almost as if that was realized by letting Matt "young up" again for his final scene.

I guess I'm less critical of the episode, I felt it was a nice hearty "not bad, not great not bad". More could be done with it, but I personally feel every regeneration could have much more done with it. I mean after all, you always wish for a little bit more.
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Deadsider wrote:
A mishmash of the big villains was a bit silly, but it did put them in a pecking order and while Daleks of course are number one, it was interesting to see the Silence as number two.


But that was the point, though - the Daleks *shouldn't* be number one.

The Daleks shouldn't be there AT ALL.

Because the Daleks running around, being the Doctor's #1 enemy, means there is no point to the entire story - the Daleks are back, galaxy-spanning war is back on, what is the point of hiding the Gallifrey away lest it 'start the Time War again'??

(Or is the problem that the rest of the galaxy HAS with the Time Lords that they want to *fight* the Daleks? Rest-of-the-galaxy instead happy to just appease away, getting conquered or assimilated by them one world at a time, but absolutely never fighting them - so the Time Lords just pissed everyone off with their whole 'fight back against the Dalek conquest' routine???)
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