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Subject: Deadly combat rss

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Brian Berg Asklev Hansen
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I am considering buying this game, as I really like CC:Ancients, but I have some doubts.
From my reading of rules and especially unit abilities, it seems that many close combats results in the elimination of the target unit, and this leaves me a bit cold.
Am I right in this?

Brian
 
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Scott Lewis
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They can, but in my experience, it's somewhat uncommon to eliminate a fully-healthy unit in a single attack.
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Andy Leber
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Yep, after many games it's been quite rare for me too.
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Brian Berg Asklev Hansen
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Even with all those special abilities?

The blue infantry (forgot the name) can strike, make the enemy retreat and then strike again, and the red infantry will roll 4 or 5 dice if they have been reduced by fire on their way to the enemy and then sacrifice steps to cause even more damage
 
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Richard Smith
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You are mixing a few things together here. Not all of those abilities are going to happen every attack. Some of those are special abilities that only come up on a specific roll, others are special abilities that only happen in specific situations (and usually right before that unit dies).

I love the first BattleLore. So far I love BattleLore Second Edition more. The battles are exciting, strategic, play is just the right amount of time, and open up a lot of new possibilities that the original didn't. If you are thinking units are overpowered or that units die off with a single attack, you are thankfully incorrect. They managed to add a lot of interesting new things in this edition and still maintain what made it such a great game from the original and the other c&c games.
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Read the rulebook, plan for all contingencies, and…read the rulebook again.
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I think you should give the game a try before buying it, if you can.

There are a number of things that mitigate how hits are applied.

Units are often rolling fewer dice than they do in Ancients. The Commit Dice Step makes units decide whether a particular face on a roll is applied to damage or some other effect. Lore cards can boost or reduce the number of dice rolled. Weakened units also hit on fewer faces than they normally would in Melee.

And the point of the game is not about eliminating units, but holding on to objectives to score victory points. Losing units is usually bad, of course, but if they weren't on or near an objective when it happened, it's not so bad.
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Scott Lewis
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brian asklev aursen wrote:
The blue infantry (forgot the name) can strike, make the enemy retreat and then strike again

That would take two attacks, and if they make the enemy retreat, that means at least one of the first attack didn't hit. Only 1/3 of the die rolls hit (or 1/6 for archers and weak units). Getting a wipeout in two attacks can happen, but even then, it depends on what else you roll.

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and the red infantry will roll 4 or 5 dice if they have been reduced by fire on their way to the enemy and then sacrifice steps to cause even more damage

Yes, they can sacrifice to deal damage, but you have to hurt yourself in the process. If they are rolling 4 dice, that can be good, but if they are rolling 5 dice, they will only hit on X's since they are weak at that point, so the extra die is mitigated. And killing off your own unit to deal damage can often come back to bite you later.


Even with all the special abilities, one-attack wipeouts aren't all that common. Not unheard of, but they aren't the norm.
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Brian Berg Asklev Hansen
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THanks for all the replies!

My problem is that I am torn between getting either this or CC:Napoleonics, after playing a LOT of CC:Ancients.

My (WAY! to timeconsuming ) considerations are the following:

1) I play a lot solo, and fear that the Lore system make Battlelore less solo friendly than CC:Nap as it entails an unfortunate (for soloplay) additional layer of knowledge about the other side compared to just knowing the other sides command cards

2) I fear the setup part of Battlelore make the game more timeconsuming compared to an Ancient or Nappy CC game.
I know that the very setup part also gives a lot of flavour and fun, but if it takes too long I might as well play another game as one of the thing I love about the CC system is the short playtime compared to the heavier wargames I also enjoy

3) How "deep" is Battlelore compared to CC:Nappy? I can see from all the reviews of Nappy that it is a deeper, and less forgiving, game than Ancients, and this is a very good thing to me as I am used to, and enjoy, more complex games.


4) I am MUCH more a historical gamer than a fantasy/Sci-Fi gamer, and therefore I think I will enjoy the "feel" of Nappy more than Battlelore (especially as I know nothing about the world of Terrinoth). BUT... I have a lot of historical games and no fantasy games left, and I cant help getting an urge for fantasy games once in a while

5) One big problem with Ancients and Nappy is that historical battles are rarely balanced affairs and therefore it is only possible to get a fair game contest in these games by playing a scenario twice and switching sides. I therefore hope that Battlelore is better in this regard but know from my Warhammer days that games with army purchase and hidden setup often ends up as a more complex version of Rock-Paper-Scissors where most is decided in the pre-game procedures and the battle itself often just becomes a technicality (for lack of a better word)

I hope you will take some time to enlighten me about these 5 points (especially if you also have experience with CC:Ancients and CC:Nappy)

Brian
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Brian Berg Asklev Hansen
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I would really like to try both this and CC:Nap before making my decision but this can only happen by buying both. (something that I am seriously contemplating to do...)
 
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Scott Lewis
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1) I'm not sure BL2E would be all that good Solo unless you took out all the Lore cards, and then you are removing a good bit of the game, I think.

2) BL2E's setup isn't that bad, especially once you know what you are doing. Maybe a few minutes.

3) I haven't played other C&C games, so I can't compare the depth.

4) BL2E is definitely 100% fantasy, even more than BL1E was.

5) BL2E tends to be pretty balanced overall, and I haven't really found it to be a Rock Paper Scissors setup at all; your army builds tend to focus on your scenario card's strengths rather than in trying to thwart your opponent's army.
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Bob Slaughter
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brian asklev aursen wrote:
I would really like to try both this and CC:Nap before making my decision but this can only happen by buying both. (something that I am seriously contemplating to do...)


I was about to suggest you do that.

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Ava Jarvis
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brian asklev aursen wrote:

1) I play a lot solo, and fear that the Lore system make Battlelore less solo friendly than CC:Nap as it entails an unfortunate (for soloplay) additional layer of knowledge about the other side compared to just knowing the other sides command cards


I'm working on a solo system for BL2. And I'm going to find some way to incorporate Lore.

The way I play C&C games solo is usually through dealing two command cards to the dummy player and executing them both. I've got a very hard solo system that allows two command cards AND a Lore card to be potentially executed. It's pretty simple and you can follow along here as I refine it so that it isn't incredible-hard:

Ava's Solo Rules Workshop

Quote:

2) I fear the setup part of Battlelore make the game more timeconsuming compared to an Ancient or Nappy CC game.
I know that the very setup part also gives a lot of flavour and fun, but if it takes too long I might as well play another game as one of the thing I love about the CC system is the short playtime compared to the heavier wargames I also enjoy


Set up time is still relatively quick and more enjoyable, I find.


Quote:
3) How "deep" is Battlelore compared to CC:Nappy? I can see from all the reviews of Nappy that it is a deeper, and less forgiving, game than Ancients, and this is a very good thing to me as I am used to, and enjoy, more complex games.


BattleLore, with the Lore cards and all the unit abilities, has the potential to go very, very deep. I'd argue deeper than C&C: Ancients, and I like C&C: Ancients a whole hell of a lot.

Quote:
4) I am MUCH more a historical gamer than a fantasy/Sci-Fi gamer, and therefore I think I will enjoy the "feel" of Nappy more than Battlelore (especially as I know nothing about the world of Terrinoth). BUT... I have a lot of historical games and no fantasy games left, and I cant help getting an urge for fantasy games once in a while


If you like C&C and you like fantasy, BL2 is pretty much your choice.

Quote:
5) One big problem with Ancients and Nappy is that historical battles are rarely balanced affairs and therefore it is only possible to get a fair game contest in these games by playing a scenario twice and switching sides. I therefore hope that Battlelore is better in this regard but know from my Warhammer days that games with army purchase and hidden setup often ends up as a more complex version of Rock-Paper-Scissors where most is decided in the pre-game procedures and the battle itself often just becomes a technicality (for lack of a better word)


Um. Haven't seen that happen here. Probably because it's a C&C game and looks to have been actually balanced well, and also because the dice and cards tend to kill well-crafted plans.
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Frank Müller
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I played C&CN alot over the last months and I can say that its so far the best of the series. It requires much more thought than other C&C games, eg. the reduction of unit firepower after losses change the gameplay in a very interesting way. Or the combined arms bonus requires you to plan ahead how to deploy your units much more than lets say m44 or battlelore 1. Many of my battles between equal strong opponents have been decided by the correct use of the combined arms bonus. Its also the C&C game where luck plays the least role and also traditional napoleonic tactics are probably the best period for the system to simulate. (I always thought WW2 tactics do not fit to the C&C system)

OTOH I guess BL2 will deliver also a very interesting and non-repetitive gameplay due to the myriard of special abilties of the units and the lores.

So I would say: Buy both games because they are surely both different and great new experiences for you even if you are used to the C&C system.
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Tom Haesendonckx
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To answer the Original question...

No, usually a unit is not eliminated completely in 1 attack, although scoring 2 hits is common for a well planned attack.

BUT in second edition, the quantity of figures that make up a standard infantry unit has been reduced from 4 to 3.

In my opinion, this makes a lot of difference.
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David Millette
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Silverwings wrote:
To answer the Original question...

No, usually a unit is not eliminated completely in 1 attack, although scoring 2 hits is common for a well planned attack.


So far I've played one game, and a full strength Rune Golem unit was eliminated with one Flesh Ripper attack roll with the aid of Fury of Y'llan. Flesh Ripper usually rolls 3 combat dice and Fury adds + 3, so 6 dice were rolled. I played the card as though regular double swords were still hits (not 100% clear that is the case on the card). At any rate, I am not certain how often this will happen, but so far I'm 1 for 1 in terms of the specified event to the # games played.

Having played other C&C games, the units in this one felt a little fragile to me. Definitely added to the tension as any one encounter could eliminate or at the very least reduce your unit to weak status. I will have to play many more games to determine if the added tension from only fielding 3 figure units has a positive or negative effect on my enjoyment of the game.
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Scott Lewis
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mille1212 wrote:
I played the card as though regular double swords were still hits (not 100% clear that is the case on the card).

Yes, regular double-swords are still hits. The card is basically saying that the single-sword counts as hits for weak units and archers.
 
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