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Subject: Minor questions rss

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Frank Otte
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In our recent session of this great game, some questions appeared, which seemed pedandic in the first glance, but I think are worth being asked and are not rules lawyerish at all:

(1) Earned debate tokens: I assume, earned debate tokens must be kept open, so everyone can see all the time, how many tokens everyone got up to now?

(2) Delegates in the assembly room: These are also played open, and if a delegation consists of more than one delegate, every player has the right all the time, to see the front side even of the delegates not on top of a delegation stack, right?

Now, the less obvious questions:

(3) When it's the end of my turn, and I have to take two delegate cards from the draw pool, to fill up my caucus, is the following behavior allowed: I choose to take the first delegate card, LOOK AT ITS FRONTSIDE, and depending from what I see, decide about the second delegate card, which I take? Or must I choose ALL delegates, BEFORE I look at them? The rules are not crystal clear in that point, because they say: "a player replenishes his caucus to 3 cards by taking delegate cards from the draw pool.". Note that this question only arises, if you have to take exactly two delegate cards. If you have to take three (or even more) delegate cards, you have no choice anyway.

Working assumption: You choose delegate cards one by one.

Last but not least the question, which left us most clueless:

(4) You know, some events refer to the top card of the discard pile. So, the order, in which cards are discarded to it, is relevant. This order is completely clear to us during the course of the round, even for the more complicated event cases (there are threads for it here).

BUT in which exact order are delegate cards discarded, when resolving the end of the round?? It seems, that first, all cards of the winning side are discarded, then all cards of the losing side and then all cards of persistent events. Is that right? If that is right, then it still remains open for us, in which order WITHIN these three discard parts the cards are placed on the discard pile.
 
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David Morcerf
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1) Tokens are open information. These are earned openly, so hiding them unfairly benefits players with better memories.

2) The delegates are played front-side up when voting as delegations, all players should see who was played and can double-check them later.

3) You add the card to your hand, so you will see it before you choose a second card from the remaining pool of two.

4) I'm not sure exactly. The condition in which you'd have the delegate that lets you pick up the one on top of discard right after a round ends would be very rare, but I would assume you would discard them in the order they are discarded in the rules and in those sections according to order-of-play.
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Frank Otte
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DeMorcerf wrote:
4) I'm not sure exactly. The condition in which you'd have the delegate that lets you pick up the one on top of discard right after a round ends would be very rare, but I would assume you would discard them in the order they are discarded in the rules and in those sections according to order-of-play.


This is the problem for us. We see no rules for it in the booklet, and there is no player order, because the round resolution follows no player order.
 
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David Morcerf
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Hermjard wrote:
DeMorcerf wrote:
4) I'm not sure exactly. The condition in which you'd have the delegate that lets you pick up the one on top of discard right after a round ends would be very rare, but I would assume you would discard them in the order they are discarded in the rules and in those sections according to order-of-play.


This is the problem for us. We see no rules for it in the booklet, and there is no player order, because the round resolution follows no player order.

The rulebook section for ending/resolving a round says to score winning-side delegations and then discard those delegates, the losing-side delegates, then the assembly room, then debate room, then discard all persistent events.
So I would discard the cards in that order winning votes, losing votes, persistent events. And discard each of those 3 groups in the order played, so the top card of the discard would be the last played persistent event.
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Frank Otte
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DeMorcerf wrote:
Hermjard wrote:
DeMorcerf wrote:
4) I'm not sure exactly. The condition in which you'd have the delegate that lets you pick up the one on top of discard right after a round ends would be very rare, but I would assume you would discard them in the order they are discarded in the rules and in those sections according to order-of-play.


This is the problem for us. We see no rules for it in the booklet, and there is no player order, because the round resolution follows no player order.

The rulebook section for ending/resolving a round says to score winning-side delegations and then discard those delegates, the losing-side delegates, then the assembly room, then debate room, then discard all persistent events.
So I would discard the cards in that order winning votes, losing votes, persistent events. And discard each of those 3 groups in the order played, so the top card of the discard would be the last played persistent event.


It is nearly impossible to keep that in mind, I think. Even it would be hard to remember, in which order the delegate stacks were played. You could agree to a certain order in which the "tables" are used, but what if certain events swap delegate stacks? Does that count as repeated play of these cards? What about gaps because of overridden delegates?
 
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Justin Erdman
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It is exactly how demorcerf says. It is clearly laid out in the instructions.
http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/54430/founding-fathers-rul...
Page 11 Header Ending the Round

I would suggest rereading it.
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Jim Dietz
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DeMorcerf wrote:
Hermjard wrote:
DeMorcerf wrote:
4) I'm not sure exactly. The condition in which you'd have the delegate that lets you pick up the one on top of discard right after a round ends would be very rare, but I would assume you would discard them in the order they are discarded in the rules and in those sections according to order-of-play.


This is the problem for us. We see no rules for it in the booklet, and there is no player order, because the round resolution follows no player order.

The rulebook section for ending/resolving a round says to score winning-side delegations and then discard those delegates, the losing-side delegates, then the assembly room, then debate room, then discard all persistent events.
So I would discard the cards in that order winning votes, losing votes, persistent events. And discard each of those 3 groups in the order played, so the top card of the discard would be the last played persistent event.


This is my understanding of it.
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Frank Otte
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I have read p.10-11 of the rules before I have posted here. This is where I have my assumption from, that first, the delegates of the winning side, then the delegates of the losing side and at last, the persistent events are discarded.

But I repeat: The rules on p.10-11 say nothing about the discard order within these three discarding actions. For example, if there are no persistent events, and no delegates at all on the losing side, it is already relevant, in which exact order the delegates of the winning side are discarded.

But the rules say only for this game action: "All delegate cards on the winning side may then be discarded, with all influence markers being returned to their players.". Nothing about a specific order.

Same for the losing side: "All delegate cards on the losing side may then be discarded."

And again for the persistent events: "Discard any persistent events that are currently in effect."

If I oversaw something here in the rules, then please help me with a specific hint.

If it indeed should be necessary to keep in mind play order of ALL delegate cards in play at the end of a round (within each area, winners, losers, persistent events), to be able to discard in correct order, then a hint from the game author would be helpful, how this should be achieved without excessive bookkeeping or a memory genius taking part in the game.

If indeed order of discarding follows order of entering play, this important detail should definitely be added in some further version of the rule booklet.
 
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William M. Buff
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Should I sleeve the cards so players can't see the back of the cards? If you know where certain delegates are from, it could give you an advantage.
 
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David Morcerf
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reptar33 wrote:
Should I sleeve the cards so players can't see the back of the cards? If you know where certain delegates are from, it could give you an advantage.

You are supposed to be able to see the card backs, that information is available on purpose to help you think out strategy based on what factions/states are available for pick up and are in other players' hands.
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Mark Drejza
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Hermjard wrote:
I have read p.10-11 of the rules before I have posted here. This is where I have my assumption from, that first, the delegates of the winning side, then the delegates of the losing side and at last, the persistent events are discarded.

But I repeat: The rules on p.10-11 say nothing about the discard order within these three discarding actions. For example, if there are no persistent events, and no delegates at all on the losing side, it is already relevant, in which exact order the delegates of the winning side are discarded.

But the rules say only for this game action: "All delegate cards on the winning side may then be discarded, with all influence markers being returned to their players.". Nothing about a specific order.

Same for the losing side: "All delegate cards on the losing side may then be discarded."

And again for the persistent events: "Discard any persistent events that are currently in effect."

If I oversaw something here in the rules, then please help me with a specific hint.

If it indeed should be necessary to keep in mind play order of ALL delegate cards in play at the end of a round (within each area, winners, losers, persistent events), to be able to discard in correct order, then a hint from the game author would be helpful, how this should be achieved without excessive bookkeeping or a memory genius taking part in the game.

If indeed order of discarding follows order of entering play, this important detail should definitely be added in some further version of the rule booklet.


I am going to be teaching folks this game in the near future. I think it is an interesting topic, albeit it limited to William Pierce, I believe. I have a possible solution--shuffle the delegate before discarding. Thematically, all the delegates "shuffle out" to take a bathroom break before the next Article is up for vote. It just happens to be George Mason to gets out last so that William Pierce sets up his player with that event to get an additional influence marker. But it does make a difference--especially whether it is at the end of a round or because of an Event like Thomas Fitzsimons. What if I am the player playing Thomas Fitzsimons, and it just happens to be that Ben Franklin, Jared Ingersoll, George Washington, and Luther Martin are among the delegates to consider? Holy cow! I play the Event and can choose which delegates to pull and then I can choose the order they are removed? I am okay with that...but that has to clearly be agreed to be a strategic move that the player executes at his discretion--because there is no order to the tables, delegations, and no order within the states or delegates themselves. Also, the question for the END OF THE ROUND becomes WHO discards them as well as HOW that person chooses to discard them. In this instance I suggest that the person ending the round does the discarding and decides the discard order.
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Mark Drejza
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reptar33 wrote:
Should I sleeve the cards so players can't see the back of the cards? If you know where certain delegates are from, it could give you an advantage.


If you may recall from the rules...that is why they are called a semi-secret caucus. That is exactly why I look for the Pennsylvania BIG STATES and ANTI-FEDERALISTS in the draw pool...I want control of Ben Franklin and Jared Ingersoll. Actually almost all the delegates are really good choices, regardless. That being said, it may be equally important to know what to draw so as to keep your opponent from getting it.
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Mark Drejza
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Re: Minor questions -- Discarding Delegates - what order?
DeMorcerf wrote:
So I would discard the cards in that order winning votes, losing votes, persistent events. And discard each of those 3 groups in the order played, so the top card of the discard would be the last played persistent event.


The problem is that that is an awful lot of remembering on the part of the players. As someone said, what if there were no persistent events? Delegates are played together as a delegation...and I don't know that any player wants to have to worry about the order their delegates are played and ensuring they are laid down in a particular sequence. Also, who is remembering the order of votes? Not me. Nothing in the components helps with that, and this starts to become a chore that detracts from the theme and overall fun.

I recommend shuffling prior to placing on the discard pile. Randomization is the always fair IMO.
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