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First of all let me say that im not writing this for the purpose of bashing the company. Im just expressing an honest opinion.

Now then... I really like descent and think it is very well done overall. A few years ago my game collection consisted mostly of games from FFG...lkke 1 out of 3. Over the past year or so this changed dramatically. I feel descent is starting to become a money sink and this bothers me. Its getting a little rediculus with the amount of lt figures that come Out every expansion. I dont believe that including the miniatures in the expansion would increase the cost of the game by much. For the price of all the LT figures you could buy a couple of really good games. I dont really care for the plot decks and i personally feel it was tacked on so FFG could justify making the packs. Looking back i think i Should have just found proxies for the figures.

I picked up a copy of the xwing miniatures second hand because i thought it would be fun. I honestly have no intention to buy more ships because the game is such a money sink and i will likely just trade it away for something else.

I hope that FFG stops or at least minimizes this type of thing in the future. Maybe then i will go back to buying their products again but for now i think ill spend my money elsewhere.

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I will still selectively buy FFG games. Some of them are a lot of fun!
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shooshoo wrote:
I hope that FFG stops or at least minimizes this type of thing in the future. Maybe then i will go back to buying their products again but for now i think ill spend my money elsewhere.

Lucky for you, FFG made a clever approach to help you spend the amount of money you want to: they made lieutenants optional. This way, you get to buy the base game without investing so much.

Now, I personally love buying the lieutenants. They've been very reasonably priced and increase my gaming options- just as the expansions do. I hope we see many more over time. What keeps me with FFG is their constant expanding of products.

Yes, for the cost of all of the lieutenants you could buy another game. That's why- again- FFG thought of you when making a core set that didn't have all the extras driving up the cost. Heck, instead if that extra game you could buy a whole myriad of things. For the amount I've spent on games, I could surely make a house payment and lower my mortgage. But, alas, I've decided to give in to my want for things. Should I blame FFG for this, or should I be an adult and consider my purchases and realize I got what I wanted?

So the good news about the lieutenant packs is that if you don't like them, FFG has no way of forcing you to buy them. It's an option people have and it seems because you don't want to invest in that- nobody should. So just repeat after me: you don't have to buy them.
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Azgard12 wrote:
[q="shooshoo"]

So the good news about the lieutenant packs is that if you don't like them, FFG has no way of forcing you to buy them. It's an option people have and it seems because you don't want to invest in that- nobody should. So just repeat after me: you don't have to buy them.


No no- the fact that they ARE available for sale means that we MUST buy them!

In all seriousness- If you don't want the LT's, don't buy them. It doesn't make the base game less enjoyable. I get them because I use them, not because I feel like I need to buy them or anything. I steered away from xwing and attack wing as well as the LCG's for the money pit reason, though that is a personal choice. FFG makes plenty of great games that you don't need to sink a lot of money into to enjoy.
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I agreed with you when I first got Descent. How could they not release the lieutenant miniatures? It was ridiculous.

Now that I've seen the Lieutenant packs, and all that they come with, I don't begrudge them so much. I honestly feel that just buying one Lieutenant Pack will be the best money you could ever spend on your Descent game.

I don't really mind this "miniature + unique pack of cards" style of expansion, and find that I rather enjoy it. It may not add much in the way of components, but it does add quite a bit of game for only $15. At the moment, my policy is to buy these VERY selectively, as I still feel they are a little over-priced. Just a personal decision. However, at the moment, the fact that I don't have any/many of these expansions yet justifies paying a bit extra. Just my personal consumer price-reaction.

(And in all honesty, I'm used to paying a little bit extra to Fantasy Flight -- I know the extra money is going to top-notch development, ridiculous variety of options, awesome artwork, high quality components, and excellent customer service).

If the price eventually falls to $10 MSRP for this "miniature + unique pack of cards" style of expansion, I would probably buy one randomly every time I went to the store.
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I would have welcomed the option to buy just the plastic miniatures, in a single pack (for Road to Legend/Sea of Blood).

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shooshoo wrote:
I dont believe that including the miniatures in the expansion would increase the cost of the game by much.


I believe you are incorrect in your belief.
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I love descent have have been a big supporter of ffg for a long time. But I do agree that they have become more profit and money focused over the past few years and that it has started to show in there games. I love descent 2nd but I have noticed the lack of play testing and editing in there newer games like descent 2nd the mistakes I have noticed are to me a sign of them rushing the game to get it on shelves. Also the fact that the reprints do not have updated rule books and cards is a sign to me that they have become more interested in getting copy's out as cheaply and as fast as possible. Ido understand that that coast money and there isn't a lot to be made in this industry but other successful leading game company's that put the product in front of the profit will do this to make sure they sell a top notch game. Like I said I love descent but this has been something me and my game group has noticed.
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Some people believe that including the LT miniatures in the box would increase the cost of the game substantially. Let's look at the Bolgoroth LT pack. It costs about $14 when you buy it retail. I don't know what the actual production cost is but I assume FFG doesn't sell the LT pack at a loss to them and they make a bit of profit.

The Trollfens expansion cost me about $28. So adding that one figure is going to increase the cost of Trollfens to $38 or more?? I doubt it.

Anyways... my point was not to bring up cost issues. I've seen that discussed in other threads. Yes I understand the LT packs are optional and I don't have to buy them, hence the choice I made not to buy them! My whole point was simply that it seems like it's getting out of hand (and I realise that FFG is not the only company to do it) but it is expected now that when an expansion comes out there will be LT packs. That means for a completist that the cost of their expansion will be increased by about $16 for the two LT packs in addition to the expansion.

Personally I don't care for the plot decks and it seems to me that they were instituted as a means to justify creating the packs in the first place. I think the game plays perfectly well without them. I don't prefer expansions in general unless they dramatically alter the game or add something fresh. In my OPINION the LT packs don't do either of those things. While some people are perfectly fine with purchasing a game and it's multiple expansions I feel there's no need. If you are creating more than two or three expansions for your base game (depending on the general type of game that it is) then I feel the designers would do better by just creating a new game with whatever these ideas happen to be.

These days technology has made producing games way easier than it has been in the past. As a result the market gets flooded with a lot of mediocre stuff. Quality counts for everything for the customer on a budget looking to purchase a great game. I just think that companies should focus more on producing a kickass product and not focus on trying to pump out whatever they can in order to make money.
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Give me bloody strength mate - as pointed out the game is completely playable without these packs (a quality product) so there is no need to buy them unless you want to expand the game even further. I have no idea what goes through the heads of people some time, maybe you need to keep your tinfoil hat on longer (so those subliminal messages from FFG are kept to a minimum).
This post has nothing to do with FFG producing an incomplete game and then selling the missing bit as an expansion.
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So let me get this straight. You're complaining about being given too many choices on how much or how little you want to spend on a game? Seriously?
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Hahaha! That's so funny! FFG is so considerate to give you the choice! FFG is love! DOn't you know? They love you, they love the world, they want everybody happy. They want to sit with you by the fire, and cook your marshmallows for you, and sing kumbaya!

I think we should do this for every product out there! Let's sell keyboards that have almost all keys but not all. If you want to use the other keys, then you can buy them for 5$ each, but if you don't use them, then aren't you happy we helped you save money?

Let's sell jackets without a zipper. If you are the type to zip your jacket, then you can buy one for 10$. If you don't zip your jacket, then you must be happy we didn't sell you a jacket with a zipper, because it cost you less.

And cars without backseat. Who needs those? It should be an option.

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super_bruno wrote:
Hahaha! That's so funny! FFG is so considerate to give you the choice! FFG is love! DOn't you know? They love you, they love the world, they want everybody happy. They want to sit with you by the fire, and cook your marshmallows for you, and sing kumbaya!

I think we should do this for every product out there! Let's sell keyboards that have almost all keys but not all. If you want to use the other keys, then you can buy them for 5$ each, but if you don't use them, then aren't you happy we helped you save money?

Let's sell jackets without a zipper. If you are the type to zip your jacket, then you can buy one for 10$. If you don't zip your jacket, then you must be happy we didn't sell you a jacket with a zipper, because it cost you less.

And cars without backseat. Who needs those? It should be an option.

shake

I hope you realize the fundamental differences between a board game and a car (or jacket or keyboard).

Additionally, this essentially pimps out your copy of a board game. It isn't something missing but something extra.

So in these cases, it would be more like the car not coming with spinning rims. Which most cars don't come with... thankfully...
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Azgard12 wrote:
super_bruno wrote:
Hahaha! That's so funny! FFG is so considerate to give you the choice! FFG is love! DOn't you know? They love you, they love the world, they want everybody happy. They want to sit with you by the fire, and cook your marshmallows for you, and sing kumbaya!

I think we should do this for every product out there! Let's sell keyboards that have almost all keys but not all. If you want to use the other keys, then you can buy them for 5$ each, but if you don't use them, then aren't you happy we helped you save money?

Let's sell jackets without a zipper. If you are the type to zip your jacket, then you can buy one for 10$. If you don't zip your jacket, then you must be happy we didn't sell you a jacket with a zipper, because it cost you less.

And cars without backseat. Who needs those? It should be an option.

shake

I hope you realize the fundamental differences between a board game and a car (or jacket or keyboard).

Additionally, this essentially pimps out your copy of a board game. It isn't something missing but something extra.

So in these cases, it would be more like the car not coming with spinning rims. Which most cars don't come with... thankfully...


Ok then, tell me this. Why are the monster figure in the box then. And the hero figures? But not the reanimated and the lieutenants? Why did they give me the choice for some of the figures, but not all of them?

And why do they sell the lieutenants in separated package? Who will buy only one lieutenant? I want only Splig, but not the others?

And fundamental difference between a keyboard and a board game? You know, I've never used the scroll lock key. Why do they keep selling it to me? Shouldn't it be an option? And I don't use both ctrl, shift and alt keys, why do I have to buy both?
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super_bruno wrote:
Azgard12 wrote:
super_bruno wrote:
Hahaha! That's so funny! FFG is so considerate to give you the choice! FFG is love! DOn't you know? They love you, they love the world, they want everybody happy. They want to sit with you by the fire, and cook your marshmallows for you, and sing kumbaya!

I think we should do this for every product out there! Let's sell keyboards that have almost all keys but not all. If you want to use the other keys, then you can buy them for 5$ each, but if you don't use them, then aren't you happy we helped you save money?

Let's sell jackets without a zipper. If you are the type to zip your jacket, then you can buy one for 10$. If you don't zip your jacket, then you must be happy we didn't sell you a jacket with a zipper, because it cost you less.

And cars without backseat. Who needs those? It should be an option.

shake

I hope you realize the fundamental differences between a board game and a car (or jacket or keyboard).

Additionally, this essentially pimps out your copy of a board game. It isn't something missing but something extra.

So in these cases, it would be more like the car not coming with spinning rims. Which most cars don't come with... thankfully...


Ok then, tell me this. Why are the monster figure in the box then. And the hero figures? But not the reanimated and the lieutenants? Why did they give me the choice for some of the figures, but not all of them?

And why do they sell the lieutenants in separated package? Who will buy only one lieutenant? I want only Splig, but not the others?

And fundamental difference between a keyboard and a board game? You know, I've never used the scroll lock key. Why do they keep selling it to me? Shouldn't it be an option? And I don't use both ctrl, shift and alt keys, why do I have to buy both?

FFG considered what elements were creating the most cost in game production, combined with both box size and customer feedback in 2011-2012. Overwhelmingly, people preferred a less expensive game. For example, Rune Wars cut the 3D mountains which were cool, but large and costly. FFG brought down the size of monster groups and lowered the overall numbers of figures. You suggest they could have cut monsters entirely and perhaps sold them separate... Well, let's examine the core game with everything there is and pretend we are going to cut a few things- the easiest cut is lieutenants. If all of the monsters and heroes had been cut- yeah- that'd be bland to me. I'd buy proxies (as I've done for 1e stuff).

The lieutenants were the likely and obvious cut because of how infrequently each appears- people could use the same monster groups much more often. The only thing that creates a reason a lieutenant would pop up all that much more is... The cards in the lieutenant pack. Which some suggested were tacked on to justify the purchase. I can agree with that, but it also made overlord more interesting and remedied some problems with rumors- so three birds, one stone.

While I can understand someone seeing the lieutenants as a money grab, it's actually a way for customers to spend the amount they can on their product. It's smarter sales. It's the reason why some people buy in bulk and some don't. More options is good for the consumer and often CAN yield more money for the producer.

As for just purchasing Splig- well, the majority of posts I've seen regarding these packs have been individuals just purchasing a single lieutenant. I bought 7, but mainly because I really wanted them all and didn't mind spending the money.


I suggest you take your problems with the keyboard up with Dell, IBM, or maybe Apple. Maybe they can explain how because there are keys on a keyboard you don't use, their existence is meaningless to everyone else in the world.
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Azgard12 wrote:
I suggest you take your problems with the keyboard up with Dell, IBM, or maybe Apple. Maybe they can explain how because there are keys on a keyboard you don't use, their existence is meaningless to everyone else in the world.


I don'T have any problem with keyboards. It's some of you that seem to have a problem with buying a product that contains some things that you won't use as often as the rest.

That was a bit of sarcasm on my part you know.

Anyway, believe what you want, but I'm pretty sure the decision to not include the lieutenant in the base game, and to sell them separately, was to maximize profit.
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super_bruno wrote:
Anyway, believe what you want, but I'm pretty sure the decision to not include the lieutenant in the base game, and to sell them separately, was to maximize profit.


And I'm pretty sure you're wrong.

What do you base this on? What information do you have that supports this? I can point you to at least one interview with Corey Konieczka where he acknowledges that people somehow think they make whole games and then cut slices out of them to serve up as expansions later, and then he laughs about it, and then he walks through the actual process and timetable of designing an expansion. Listen to it--you might learn something.

http://ludology.libsyn.com/ludology-episode-66-please-sir-ca...

That's how I support my belief. What can you point the rest of us to that supports YOUR belief?

Furthermore, when Descent 2nd edition came out, FFG elaborated the plan for the lieutenants several times before they were eventually released. Initially, the plan was very different (metal minis by themselves, no cards or extra powers), primarily because they were following the model from Descent 1st edition (as Azgard12 notes above). If you had followed the process as it occurred, you would be aware of the point at which FFG totally rethought their marketing for the lieutenants. It was well after the 2nd edition base game was out (and maybe even an expansion) where they acknowledged they were going to have to go back to the drawing board. And the marketing they eventually came up with (to include a mini-game with each miniature to make them marketable on an individual basis) is what you see available now.

The great thing is that the game doesn't suffer without them in my opinion. You yourself say that you won't use them that often. So play the game as sold in the Descent 2nd edition box...or don't. Your choice. That's the other great thing--you have the choice as to what you spend your money on. If this marketing bothers you to the point where you want to vote with your wallet and buy someone else's game, you're free to do so. It won't make a bit of difference to me and how much I enjoy the game.

But when you fill your posts only with hyperbole and unfounded theories, then you just come off as ill-informed and just kind of silly and end up not supporting your point very well.
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Mmmm, unfounded theory?

Isn't the whole point of a business to maximize profit?

Let's see, they decided to release the game without the lieutenants. Why? Because it would have driven the base game cost too high, which would mean less game sold, thus less profit.

Lieutenants packs, they had to rethink them, because they wouldn't have sold well. They weren't marketable as is. So again, the decision is based on how much they will sell, which mean profit.

So, that how a business work no? And there comes a point when you will say "no more! I don't agree with how you do your business!" It just happend that my tolerance is lower than yours.

As for the interview, I've already heard it a few months ago. It didn't convince me then. It don't say there weren't good reason behing the decision, I say I don't agree with the decision.

Maybe you like a buffet, but me, I prefer a classic restaurant.
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super_bruno wrote:
Anyway, believe what you want, but I'm pretty sure the decision to not include the lieutenant in the base game, and to sell them separately, was to maximize profit.

Does everyone in Canada think they need to wear tinfoil hats shakelaugh ?
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My concern about the Lt packs: They are not coming out fast enough.
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Well, if you heard the interview and think that Corey was being untruthful about their business practices, then I'm not sure what to tell you. I certainly don't blame you for not giving FFG your business in that case. But I don't equate "maximizing profit" with some kind of "taking advantage of gamers" which is the tone your other posts have conveyed.

That being said, if your point was "I don't think the lieutenants add anything significant" or "the lieutenants aren't worth the money," I might agree with you. But I don't think FFG is operating with malice or against the interests of gamers.

And my dining preferences have nothing to do with my choices in purchasing games.
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bigtex01 wrote:
Well, if you heard the interview and think that Corey was being untruthful about their business practices, then I'm not sure what to tell you. I certainly don't blame you for not giving FFG your business in that case. But I don't equate "maximizing profit" with some kind of "taking advantage of gamers" which is the tone your other posts have conveyed.

That being said, if your point was "I don't think the lieutenants add anything significant" or "the lieutenants aren't worth the money," I might agree with you. But I don't think FFG is operating with malice or against the interests of gamers.

And my dining preferences have nothing to do with my choices in purchasing games.


Never said it was done out malice. If you got that out of my posts, then you misunderstood me. It has nothing to do with malice or being evil or whatever. But don't try to tell me they did it because they thought it was in the best interest of the gamers.
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WOW! Funny how somebody expresses an opinion and then multiple people write back restating the same thing the original poster said but in a slightly different way, and then offering "proof" for their opinions.

I've already stated I acknowledged that the LT packs were choice. I've already stated I chose not to buy them. Nowhere did I say the game was incomplete without them (when I said "completist" I was referring to thise people who must have EVERYTHING related to a game....nothing to do with the game itself).


But all you people bashing and insulting and getting defensive have pretty much just restated everything I said initially. And with regards to those who went off on tangents and talking about keyboards and tinfoil hats and stuff....what are you guys five years old?? Ever learn how to debate before? Amazing!
 
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shooshoo wrote:
But all you people bashing and insulting and getting defensive have pretty much just restated everything I said initially. And with regards to those who went off on tangents and talking about keyboards and tinfoil hats and stuff....what are you guys five years old?? Ever learn how to debate before? Amazing!

You seem to be mixing everyone together.

Go back, read the thread. The majority of this has been polite- there was one heckler (maybe).

The core of what is being debated is it okay for a company to make something that can be expanded upon even in small ways. The current approach is jnot only popular in the market in general, it helps a company make a profit while not isolating those that don't wish to spend the maximum. It's why in-app purchases work.
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super_bruno wrote:
Mmmm, unfounded theory?

Isn't the whole point of a business to maximize profit?

Let's see, they decided to release the game without the lieutenants. Why? Because it would have driven the base game cost too high, which would mean less game sold, thus less profit.

Lieutenants packs, they had to rethink them, because they wouldn't have sold well. They weren't marketable as is. So again, the decision is based on how much they will sell, which mean profit.

So, that how a business work no? And there comes a point when you will say "no more! I don't agree with how you do your business!" It just happend that my tolerance is lower than yours.

As for the interview, I've already heard it a few months ago. It didn't convince me then. It don't say there weren't good reason behing the decision, I say I don't agree with the decision.

Maybe you like a buffet, but me, I prefer a classic restaurant.


I agree that it comes down to preferences. I have personally decided "not" to buy any individual packs of minis for any games in the future (Descent, X Wing, Attack Wing, etc. etc.). I will not support those kinds of expansions with my money. I realize that I might miss out on some great games, but there are plenty more games to play. I am considering adding dice packs to my blacklist as well...
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