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Subject: Splitting case : how to ? rss

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Christophe Fontaine
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Hi,

I'm asking the question to those who play with the splitting rule.
I stumbled on the case presented below, and I was wondering how you guys would solve the splitting problem brought up by the situation.

It's the zombies' turn, initially there are 2 walkers and one runner in the same zone, that see no survivor. Hence they will walk towards the loudest zone, which are in the example the two zones with three survivors each.
how do they split? solution 1, 2 or another ?

 
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Bill Watterson
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my guess.

btw: much easier to understand a question when posed with pictures.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Neither pictured solution is correct (although Bill's is).

For the walkers, one walker goes left and the other down and that's it. They don't split at all.

The first activation of the runner has it split so that one goes left and one goes down. In the second activation, the runner in-between the two group of survivors splits so that one goes up and one goes down. The runner at the bottom-right simply moves left.

So the final result is


---------
| 3S+R |
-----------------
| W | |
-----------------
| 3S+2R | W |
-----------------
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Bill Watterson
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So the above Runner DOESN'T just "move two zones", it moves one zone, then moves another - thanx for the clarity.

I was going to pose the following:



it being the Runner's turn. I thought the runner would latch on to the noisiest zone - the one with 2 noise markers, and move two zones left, totally ignoring the survivor who would be in its line-of-sight after the zombie's first zone move. But now I see that after one move left the zombie would change direction and thus its second move would be up to say hi to the survivor.
 
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Christophe Fontaine
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zwixxx wrote:
my guess.

btw: much easier to understand a question when posed with pictures.


NOthing's better than a good picture laugh

YOu and Jorgen have thought of the same solution, but I need to understand why you end up with only two walkers at the end, instead of 3 like I propose.

My solution comes from the following reasoning :

1) the walkers have 2 zones equally noisy to go to, and there are 2 of them (the walkers, you follow?). Hence each one goes towards one of the zone, as per the splitting rule.

2) one walker goes towards the northen survivors, one shortest way is available so it goes left.

3) the second walker goes towards the southern survivors, there are 2 shortest routes available, left and down, so it has to go both ways, hence splitting again.

4) you finish with 2 walkers left, and one walker down, for a total of 3 walkers.

For me it's the same as if the zones were like in the following picture :



What do you guys think? If you think I'm wrong, explain your point of view please.

edit : with my reasoning, I end up with a nasty situation the runners, where 1 runner gives you 5 at the end !! : 2 north, and 3 south...
 
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Andrew Dale
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I agree with your interpretation Christophe so will be interested to understand the logic myself.
 
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Brad B
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The reasoning is because there are only two paths to both groups of survivors, left and down. Since there were two walkers and only two paths, one goes left and one goes down. The second one (the zombie going down) doesn't need to split for multiple paths because one of the zombies in his group already went that way.

In your second picture, you have three paths to two groups. Left, right and down. So the one going to the second group would need to split for right and down because no one in his group of zombies took the down path.
 
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Christophe Fontaine
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Ranerdar wrote:
The reasoning is because there are only two paths to both groups of survivors, left and down. Since there were two walkers and only two paths, one goes left and one goes down. The second one (the zombie going down) doesn't need to split for multiple paths because one of the zombies in his group already went that way.

In your second picture, you have three paths to two groups. Left, right and down. So the one going to the second group would need to split for right and down because no one in his group of zombies took the down path.


OK I see now, you count the number of available routes towards every target, in this case 2 routes. Hence if there are two walkers, each one is going to follow one of the route.

I just read the rulebook again, I think the splitting comes from the fact that if several paths of the same length are available, the zombies split so that each path is taken by equally the same amount of zombies (add zombies to egalize the groups if necessary).

I was reasoning that the splitting came from having two equally noisest zones.
It's very subtile, I think that from now I will apply your solution.


edit : actually, having re-read again the book, it seems that splitting occurs in two situations :

1) 2 (or more) groups with the same amount of noise tokens
2) 2 (or more) shortest paths available towards a targeted zone

Both are written in the rulebook and they make me feel my reasoning is (also) right, but I can find sense is yours too.

Now I'm very confused about it, maybe if someone else could add his interpretation without repeating all that has been said already ??
 
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Bill Watterson
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It probably won't but I've split up your 2nd scenario to deal with walkers and runner separately.



and one I've come up with, that probably could never crop up but still...

Are my workings correct: a Runner inbetween 2 survivors would first split in two, then these two would themselves split

 
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Scott Hill
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azhagmorglum wrote:
Now I'm very confused about it, maybe if someone else could add his interpretation without repeating all that has been said already ??

The number of sub-groups a zombie-type group splits into is always equal to the number of first-step zones in the routes to their various destinations.

So, if two or more routes share the same first-step zone only that single zone is considered.

Also, splitting happens only when the zombies actually move, not during the working out of the splitting.

Hence the two walkers stay as two walkers in the original question.
 
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Andrew Dale
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Scorpion0x17 wrote:
The number of sub-groups a zombie-type group splits into is always equal to the number of first-step zones in the routes to their various destinations.


Thanks Scott, that clears it up (in my head anyway!!).
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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By the way, the proof that you are only meant to split based on the number of first zones comes from the FAQ, which lists several questions about multiple paths with same first zones.
 
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MisuVir
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zwixxx wrote:
Are my workings correct: a Runner inbetween 2 survivors would first split in two, then these two would themselves split



What reason do they have for splitting the second time? At this point, they're both one square away from a single survivor - they'll just run into that space and no splitting should be required.
 
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Scott Hill
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MisuVir wrote:
zwixxx wrote:
Are my workings correct: a Runner inbetween 2 survivors would first split in two, then these two would themselves split



What reason do they have for splitting the second time? At this point, they're both one square away from a single survivor - they'll just run into that space and no splitting should be required.

If a zombie, or group of zombies, can see two, equally noisy, seperate groups of survivors, they head towards both destinations irrespective of distance.

If the first-step zones of the routes to get to those destinations are different then they split.

Route length is only taken into account when there is more than one route to a single destination.
 
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Scorpion0x17 wrote:
MisuVir wrote:
zwixxx wrote:
Are my workings correct: a Runner inbetween 2 survivors would first split in two, then these two would themselves split



What reason do they have for splitting the second time? At this point, they're both one square away from a single survivor - they'll just run into that space and no splitting should be required.

If a zombie, or group of zombies, can see two, equally noisy, seperate groups of survivors, they head towards both destinations irrespective of distance.

If the first-step zones of the routes to get to those destinations are different then they split.

Route length is only taken into account when there is more than one route to a single destination.


Huh. I've never had this situation arise and have never considered it but.... if in this situation the 2 survivors didn't move and made the same amount of noise and there were no external influences on this closed system, that centre square (with R4 and R5) would be an infinitely spawning zombie generator, right? Cool.
 
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Scott Hill
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Petdoc wrote:
Scorpion0x17 wrote:
MisuVir wrote:
zwixxx wrote:
Are my workings correct: a Runner inbetween 2 survivors would first split in two, then these two would themselves split



What reason do they have for splitting the second time? At this point, they're both one square away from a single survivor - they'll just run into that space and no splitting should be required.

If a zombie, or group of zombies, can see two, equally noisy, seperate groups of survivors, they head towards both destinations irrespective of distance.

If the first-step zones of the routes to get to those destinations are different then they split.

Route length is only taken into account when there is more than one route to a single destination.


Huh. I've never had this situation arise and have never considered it but.... if in this situation the 2 survivors didn't move and made the same amount of noise and there were no external influences on this closed system, that centre square (with R4 and R5) would be an infinitely spawning zombie generator, right? Cool.

Not infinite - eventually you'd draw a Runners extra activation card during the spawn phase...

But, yeah.

Fortunately players tend not to have their survivors stand around doing nothing but killing a runner and making equal amounts of noise as each other...
 
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Bill Watterson
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So I'm right and if the red+blue survivors were able to always kill the runner in their zone then runners would keep being split adfinitum, but this situation would be very rare so I can stop worrying about it Okidoki.
 
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Christophe Fontaine
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zwixxx wrote:
Are my workings correct: a Runner inbetween 2 survivors would first split in two, then these two would themselves split



I've surely been in this situation once, and surely I didn't split the runners like you did, because I would have forgotten to split R1 and R2 again.

This situation makes me start thinking the splitting rule is really weird sometimes and can lead to incongruous situations.

@ Jorgen : thanks for clarifying the situation with the reference to the FAQ.
Now my confusion is gone, at least for the case I presented.
 
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Bill Watterson
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azhagmorglum wrote:
I've surely been in this situation once, and surely I didn't split the runners like you did, because I would have forgotten to split R1 and R2 again.

This situation makes me start thinking the splitting rule is really weird sometimes and can lead to incongruous situations.

Need to dig out the rule book but:
(1) If a survivor is in a zombies line-of-site then the zombie will move toward them, (2) if the are two survivors in different zones, in opposite directions, (like my above scenerio) then the zombie would split.
But what if these two survivors WEREN'T the same distance from the zombie, say if one was in the zone right next to it, but the other 3 or 4 zones away, would the zombie still split ?
 
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Scott Hill
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zwixxx wrote:
azhagmorglum wrote:
I've surely been in this situation once, and surely I didn't split the runners like you did, because I would have forgotten to split R1 and R2 again.

This situation makes me start thinking the splitting rule is really weird sometimes and can lead to incongruous situations.

Need to dig out the rule book but:
(1) If a survivor is in a zombies line-of-site then the zombie will move toward them, (2) if the are two survivors in different zones, in opposite directions, (like my above scenerio) then the zombie would split.
But what if these two survivors WEREN'T the same distance from the zombie, say if one was in the zone right next to it, but the other 3 or 4 zones away, would the zombie still split ?

Yes.

Distance is only considered when determining which of multiple routes to a single destination the zombies will take.
 
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Christophe Fontaine
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@ Jorgen : I took your word for granted, but i can't seem to find the FAQ you were referring to. I can only find one on the official website, but it's FAQ 1.0 and there's nothing in it about splitting.

Can you direct me to it please?
 
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Bill Watterson
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Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Yes. Distance is only considered when determining which of multiple routes to a single destination the zombies will take.

Ta. .... but if a survivor was in a zone BEHIND another survivor, so it went zombie survivor survivor, even though the zombie sees both there would be no splitting, right ?! (my last splitting question, honest.)
 
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Joe fife
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azhagmorglum wrote:
@ Jorgen : I took your word for granted, but i can't seem to find the FAQ you were referring to. I can only find one on the official website, but it's FAQ 1.0 and there's nothing in it about splitting.

Can you direct me to it please?
It's from this thread, question 8.

zwixxx wrote:
Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Yes. Distance is only considered when determining which of multiple routes to a single destination the zombies will take.

Ta. .... but if a survivor was in a zone BEHIND another survivor, so it went zombie survivor survivor, even though the zombie sees both there would be no splitting, right ?! (my last splitting question, honest.)


Correct, Zombies only split if the first zones on the paths are different.
 
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Bill Watterson
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Imriel wrote:
Correct, Zombies only split if the first zones on the paths are different.
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Christophe Fontaine
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Thanks Imriel !
 
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