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Subject: Woman In The Red Dress is way better than people realize... rss

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sgt stiffler
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I recently watched the unboxing of the Mala Tempora data pack expansion from Team Covenant. The guys were less than impressed with the card. Having gone against it many times, I can say its a game changer. It's basically a free run for the runner. If the top card is an agenda, then you have to decide if your ice can hold up. Or, put it in your hand, which inevitably already has an agenda or 2. When I finally get my opponent tagged, I take it out before professional contacts, and even Katie Jones. I'm curious what other people think on this card based on their experience. Because I absolutely cringe when I see it come out.
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David Hammond
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Absolutely. It's also straight out Jinteki hatred.
 
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R. Fetterkey
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sgtstiffler wrote:
I recently watched the unboxing of the Mala Tempora data pack expansion from Team Covenant. The guys were less than impressed with the card. Having gone against it many times, I can say its a game changer. It's basically a free run for the runner. If the top card is an agenda, then you have to decide if your ice can hold up. Or, put it in your hand, which inevitably already has an agenda or 2. When I finally get my opponent tagged, I take it out before professional contacts, and even Katie Jones. I'm curious what other people think on this card based on their experience. Because I absolutely cringe when I see it come out.


I generally don't have the experience you describe of "inevitably" holding an agenda or two in hand-- in many cases, I find myself *wanting* to draw agendas.

Thus far I've only seen Woman in the Red Dress once or twice, and it never posed a problem for me. In fact, I found that it overall boosted my Corp deck. That said, I've been playing Jinteki a lot recently, and running aggressively against Jinteki's HQ is often a losing proposition. I could see it being much more effective against other Corps.
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Michael Redston
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This card would be no less than divine in Fisk. The 4 influence part isn't so painful when you realize you only need 1 copy thanks to Hostage.
 
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sgt stiffler
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I've gone against many times now, and it's had an effect in every single game In Which it's gone out. That's why I'm considering it a game changer. I guess it's not 'Account Siphon' good, but just as annoying. I will be splashing it into most of my runner decks, even with the high influence cost.
 
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Martin Presley
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fetterkey wrote:
sgtstiffler wrote:
I recently watched the unboxing of the Mala Tempora data pack expansion from Team Covenant. The guys were less than impressed with the card. Having gone against it many times, I can say its a game changer. It's basically a free run for the runner. If the top card is an agenda, then you have to decide if your ice can hold up. Or, put it in your hand, which inevitably already has an agenda or 2. When I finally get my opponent tagged, I take it out before professional contacts, and even Katie Jones. I'm curious what other people think on this card based on their experience. Because I absolutely cringe when I see it come out.


I generally don't have the experience you describe of "inevitably" holding an agenda or two in hand-- in many cases, I find myself *wanting* to draw agendas.

Thus far I've only seen Woman in the Red Dress once or twice, and it never posed a problem for me. In fact, I found that it overall boosted my Corp deck. That said, I've been playing Jinteki a lot recently, and running aggressively against Jinteki's HQ is often a losing proposition. I could see it being much more effective against other Corps.


I don't know about most decks, but as Weyland, I more often than not want to draw cards, for my combo pieces, operation econ, and agendas to rush out. In most games I would actively prefer the runner give me free clicks, since I'm so strong early game.

If WitRD was inverted, and you reveal a card from HQ, and got to choose whether to put it on top of R&D or not, that would actually be better, since it would more rarely benefit the corp, and could give away agenda locations.
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Scott Rubin
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The effect of this card is indeed huge. One important thing is to remember it! Often times when this is on the table the players will forget to do it. Do not forget!

One guy I know is playing a strategy where he gets HQ interfaces or Nerve Agents. Then he plays woman in the red dress. If you draw an agenda, he probably knows about it. Then he only runs HQ if he knows there is an agenda there. Really dangerous.
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sgt stiffler
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Apreche wrote:
The effect of this card is indeed huge. One important thing is to remember it! Often times when this is on the table the players will forget to do it. Do not forget!

One guy I know is playing a strategy where he gets HQ interfaces or Nerve Agents. Then he plays woman in the red dress. If you draw an agenda, he probably knows about it. Then he only runs HQ if he knows there is an agenda there. Really dangerous.


My opponent won't ever forget when it's out...unfortunately!I like the idea with nerve agents in play. The first few games it came out, I thought it was just bad luck. But I've gone against this card at least 20 times now, and it becomes a huge issue. The corp is supposed to be about hidden info, and this card negates that.
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Jesse M
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This card has helped me win as corp the few times I've seen it, which may have just been poor play on the runners part I'm not sure. It let me choose what to protect more, HQ or RnD , additionally it let me draw past ice I didn't need when I was searching for the last Astro to score. It also let me choose when to decrease agenda density in hand when I needed to or increase it to bait hitting a snare. I wasn't expecting it to be so helpful but I think if the corp is not completely on the ropes they can take advantage, and if they are do you need it?

It might be great early game against Jinteki but even then they can use it to their advantage if you don't know all cards in HQ.

I'd say it's unplayable vs fast advance or weyland as you'll just feed their engine.
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Wesley Chan
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kroen wrote:
This card would be no less than divine in Fisk. The 4 influence part isn't so painful when you realize you only need 1 copy thanks to Hostage.


It's okay with Fisk. If the corp knows what's good for them, they will never draw the agenda, because the first central run Fisk makes will force you to draw it anyway. And being Fisk, it's very likely the corp doesn't need more cards to dilute their hand, either.
If anything, it's a liability because it lets the corp dig for agendas faster in a FA/NA deck.
I want to say you're better off with Deep Thought for its lower influence cost, although costing memory is a point against it, too.
 
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Ben Finkel
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mrthefter wrote:
kroen wrote:
This card would be no less than divine in Fisk. The 4 influence part isn't so painful when you realize you only need 1 copy thanks to Hostage.


It's okay with Fisk. If the corp knows what's good for them, they will never draw the agenda, because the first central run Fisk makes will force you to draw it anyway. And being Fisk, it's very likely the corp doesn't need more cards to dilute their hand, either.


If they never draw it, then it's like you have an always-on Deep Thought. Lemme tell you, the problem with Deep Thought was never the effect - it's getting and keeping it on.

Besides, if they keep an agenda on R&D, just run there and choose not to use Fisk's ability. It's not mandatory.
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Jesse M
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Azeltir wrote:
mrthefter wrote:
kroen wrote:
This card would be no less than divine in Fisk. The 4 influence part isn't so painful when you realize you only need 1 copy thanks to Hostage.


It's okay with Fisk. If the corp knows what's good for them, they will never draw the agenda, because the first central run Fisk makes will force you to draw it anyway. And being Fisk, it's very likely the corp doesn't need more cards to dilute their hand, either.


If they never draw it, then it's like you have an always-on Deep Thought. Lemme tell you, the problem with Deep Thought was never the effect - it's getting and keeping it on.

Besides, if they keep an agenda on R&D, just run there and choose not to use Fisk's ability. It's not mandatory.


It's nothing like Deep thought, which is very different because the corp doesn't get a chance to take advantage of the situation.

If it's an Agenda and I think you can get to RnD I draw it into HQ. Because the corp just needs to look at RnD as a remote for a turn. Even if you can get into HQ, there are up to 6 cards you have to pick from. Generally better odds than leaving it on RnD.

The bigger problem is if the corp draws it then they get a new card on the start of their next turn. Maybe that's the agenda? Maybe it's a Snare? Maybe it's the biotic labor they need for the agendas already in hand.

Nothing is more satisfying than drawing up that Enigma you don't need when a Yog is on the table and then getting a new card at the start of your next turn.

Unless RnD and HQ are poorly protected why would you play this? And if both are open, why wouldn't you just start winning with other cards that help you do exactly that?
 
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J. Chris Miller
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Doesn't hold a candle to Indexing, which just wins games. That said, extra info is always nice, I just don't see spending a slot on it when there are so many other vital tools the runner needs.
 
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Steven Tu
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mrthefter wrote:
kroen wrote:
This card would be no less than divine in Fisk. The 4 influence part isn't so painful when you realize you only need 1 copy thanks to Hostage.


It's okay with Fisk. If the corp knows what's good for them, they will never draw the agenda, because the first central run Fisk makes will force you to draw it anyway.


Fisk's ability is not mandatory, Fisk gets to choose on successful run, BEFORE access.

Theory mistakes. Tsk. I refer to the PSA I made a while ago: http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1069677/psa-fisks-ability

And I think Woman In The Red Dress is the FIRST card made to synergise with Fisk, and goes perfectly with Hostage. It is the first and only way to overload the corp's hand under control of the runner side.
 
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Andrew Keddie
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Crazy thought - I wonder how WitRD would do in a DLR deck? If the Corp doesn't draw it, and you won't want it either, DLR it away before you run. If they DO draw it, you can accelerate R&D depletion. Don't know how viable this would be, just popped into my head.
 
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Scott Rubin
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CommissarFeesh wrote:
Crazy thought - I wonder how WitRD would do in a DLR deck? If the Corp doesn't draw it, and you won't want it either, DLR it away before you run. If they DO draw it, you can accelerate R&D depletion. Don't know how viable this would be, just popped into my head.
DLR won't be consistent because you need to be tagged. That means the corp can trash DLR and also trash the woman, both are resources. A better idea is to simply play it in Noise. See the top card, if they do or do not draw you can decide to mill or not accordingly.
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David Jackman
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4 influence is just a killer. Even for a single copy, your opportunity cost is like 2 RDI, 1 Siphon, 2 corroder, 1 parasite 2 sucker, 2 pro contacts, etc etc.

I can only hope something comes out that makes this card better in faction.
 
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Steven Tu
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Apreche wrote:
CommissarFeesh wrote:
Crazy thought - I wonder how WitRD would do in a DLR deck? If the Corp doesn't draw it, and you won't want it either, DLR it away before you run. If they DO draw it, you can accelerate R&D depletion. Don't know how viable this would be, just popped into my head.
DLR won't be consistent because you need to be tagged. That means the corp can trash DLR and also trash the woman, both are resources. A better idea is to simply play it in Noise. See the top card, if they do or do not draw you can decide to mill or not accordingly.


If only Noise and Fisk could double team
 
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Grish Noren
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Saan wrote:
4 influence is just a killer. Even for a single copy, your opportunity cost is like 2 RDI, 1 Siphon, 2 corroder, 1 parasite 2 sucker, 2 pro contacts, etc etc.

I can only hope something comes out that makes this card better in faction.


Isn't it quite clearly good in-faction? I'm thinking specifically Professor builds; When you get this, you fetch up nerve agent & sneak door beta; then its extremely difficult for the corp to defend 4 servers effectively as you'll snatch anything out of HQ which must be protected two ways. You'll also snatch stuff off the top of R&D because you're shaper. And with awesome breakers remotes aren't exactly closed to you.
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Wesley Chan
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Azeltir wrote:
Besides, if they keep an agenda on R&D, just run there and choose not to use Fisk's ability. It's not mandatory.

Tuism wrote:
Fisk's ability is not mandatory, Fisk gets to choose on successful run, BEFORE access.

Theory mistakes. Tsk. I refer to the PSA I made a while ago: http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1069677/psa-fisks-ability

And I think Woman In The Red Dress is the FIRST card made to synergise with Fisk, and goes perfectly with Hostage. It is the first and only way to overload the corp's hand under control of the runner side.


Welp, ok. I stand corrected. It's a pretty good combo with Fisk, then. Influence still hurts, but I've done worse. (2x Wotan in Weyland)
 
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David Jackman
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gumOnShoe wrote:
Saan wrote:
4 influence is just a killer. Even for a single copy, your opportunity cost is like 2 RDI, 1 Siphon, 2 corroder, 1 parasite 2 sucker, 2 pro contacts, etc etc.

I can only hope something comes out that makes this card better in faction.


Isn't it quite clearly good in-faction? I'm thinking specifically Professor builds; When you get this, you fetch up nerve agent & sneak door beta; then its extremely difficult for the corp to defend 4 servers effectively as you'll snatch anything out of HQ which must be protected two ways. You'll also snatch stuff off the top of R&D because you're shaper. And with awesome breakers remotes aren't exactly closed to you.


Even if all of the things you mention are true, then why do you need to spend 3 credits and a card on this card? haha. It sounds like you'll win either way. If you could hit R&D as you suggest, then you would have snagged the agenda they just drew anyway.

If you can poop out the 2 cards(both of which will be 1-offs in your deck), 7 credits, and 3 MU at a moments notice, as well as the breakers/money to get in, then its kind of a moot point, heh.

I think the ability is good, but its overcosted, both in credits and influence. I've tried it some in shaper, and its alright, but any card that has a chance to help your opponent more than yourself isn't going to see a lot of competitive play. ESPECIALLY a resource and 3 credits.

Its pretty alright when you dont hit an agenda and they dont draw. That seems like a minority of the time, though. Many good lists already draw two cards a turn, so you're saving them a click, and you get some information out of it.
 
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Grish Noren
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Saan wrote:
gumOnShoe wrote:
Saan wrote:
4 influence is just a killer. Even for a single copy, your opportunity cost is like 2 RDI, 1 Siphon, 2 corroder, 1 parasite 2 sucker, 2 pro contacts, etc etc.

I can only hope something comes out that makes this card better in faction.


Isn't it quite clearly good in-faction? I'm thinking specifically Professor builds; When you get this, you fetch up nerve agent & sneak door beta; then its extremely difficult for the corp to defend 4 servers effectively as you'll snatch anything out of HQ which must be protected two ways. You'll also snatch stuff off the top of R&D because you're shaper. And with awesome breakers remotes aren't exactly closed to you.


Even if all of the things you mention are true, then why do you need to spend 3 credits and a card on this card? haha. It sounds like you'll win either way. If you could hit R&D as you suggest, then you would have snagged the agenda they just drew anyway.


It's about stretching their ice and resources across the servers you want them to put them on at the time you want them there. Yeah, you can't lock down a server permanently, but you can certainly push them off of scoring by forcing them to dedicate to icing up centrals; And then, because you're playing a toolbox deck, you abandon that plan if something better opens up.

Quote:
If you can poop out the 2 cards(both of which will be 1-offs in your deck), 7 credits, and 3 MU at a moments notice, as well as the breakers/money to get in, then its kind of a moot point, heh.


Akatsu Memchip helps, and runner economy is not necessarily difficult these days. And it wouldn't all have to come down on the same turn. You drop nerve agent first, and then when HQ is sealed up, you drop Sneakdoor. Then eventually testrun a femme back onto HQ opening it up again. And at any point in that sequence of events you pop out red dress and breakers as you need them; possibly just atman & femme.

Quote:
Its pretty alright when you dont hit an agenda and they dont draw. That seems like a minority of the time, though. Many good lists already draw two cards a turn, so you're saving them a click, and you get some information out of it.


Right; In some cases you will help your opponent, but you'll increase the rate of agendas appearing in the game without necessarily giving your opponent the tools to score them at a faster rate.

The most important thing about the card is the information: learning where its worth running. You are right that your economic situation is always limited; and because of this making the RIGHT run is even more important. Red Dress & Nerve Agent make the RIGHT run more obvious. There are a few things that we know change how the game plays:

1) Ability to access
--a) Cost to access
--b) Tools to get around security
2) Chance of successful access
--a) Knowledge of what is where
--b) Increasing likelihood of good accesses by accessing more.

Red dress helps us number 2a; Nerve Agent 2b; and Sneakdoor 1b. You aren't incorrect that 1a is very important, but its a solvable problem.

Additionally, Red Dress may help with 1a by keeping you from wasting resources on bad runs. Nerve Agent also helps with 1a by reducing the number of runs you need to make. And sneakdoor helps with 1a by allowing to choose the least expensive of 2 options; All the while all of these things increase the cost of defense, which is something you should value as a runner.
 
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Adam Perry
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WitRD is the worst card versus the best archetypes in the game right now, that is why it's effect is not that great.
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David Jackman
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gumOnShoe wrote:
Saan wrote:
gumOnShoe wrote:
Saan wrote:
4 influence is just a killer. Even for a single copy, your opportunity cost is like 2 RDI, 1 Siphon, 2 corroder, 1 parasite 2 sucker, 2 pro contacts, etc etc.

I can only hope something comes out that makes this card better in faction.


Isn't it quite clearly good in-faction? I'm thinking specifically Professor builds; When you get this, you fetch up nerve agent & sneak door beta; then its extremely difficult for the corp to defend 4 servers effectively as you'll snatch anything out of HQ which must be protected two ways. You'll also snatch stuff off the top of R&D because you're shaper. And with awesome breakers remotes aren't exactly closed to you.


Even if all of the things you mention are true, then why do you need to spend 3 credits and a card on this card? haha. It sounds like you'll win either way. If you could hit R&D as you suggest, then you would have snagged the agenda they just drew anyway.


It's about stretching their ice and resources across the servers you want them to put them on at the time you want them there. Yeah, you can't lock down a server permanently, but you can certainly push them off of scoring by forcing them to dedicate to icing up centrals; And then, because you're playing a toolbox deck, you abandon that plan if something better opens up.

Quote:
If you can poop out the 2 cards(both of which will be 1-offs in your deck), 7 credits, and 3 MU at a moments notice, as well as the breakers/money to get in, then its kind of a moot point, heh.


Akatsu Memchip helps, and runner economy is not necessarily difficult these days. And it wouldn't all have to come down on the same turn. You drop nerve agent first, and then when HQ is sealed up, you drop Sneakdoor. Then eventually testrun a femme back onto HQ opening it up again. And at any point in that sequence of events you pop out red dress and breakers as you need them; possibly just atman & femme.

Quote:
Its pretty alright when you dont hit an agenda and they dont draw. That seems like a minority of the time, though. Many good lists already draw two cards a turn, so you're saving them a click, and you get some information out of it.


Right; In some cases you will help your opponent, but you'll increase the rate of agendas appearing in the game without necessarily giving your opponent the tools to score them at a faster rate.

The most important thing about the card is the information: learning where its worth running. You are right that your economic situation is always limited; and because of this making the RIGHT run is even more important. Red Dress & Nerve Agent make the RIGHT run more obvious. There are a few things that we know change how the game plays:

1) Ability to access
--a) Cost to access
--b) Tools to get around security
2) Chance of successful access
--a) Knowledge of what is where
--b) Increasing likelihood of good accesses by accessing more.

Red dress helps us number 2a; Nerve Agent 2b; and Sneakdoor 1b. You aren't incorrect that 1a is very important, but its a solvable problem.

Additionally, Red Dress may help with 1a by keeping you from wasting resources on bad runs. Nerve Agent also helps with 1a by reducing the number of runs you need to make. And sneakdoor helps with 1a by allowing to choose the least expensive of 2 options; All the while all of these things increase the cost of defense, which is something you should value as a runner.


If the corp doesnt adapt his play to WitRD, then yeah, its a good card. But thats a bad corp play - it has nothing to do with the card.

HBFA, NBN rush, weyland, and even jinteki PE all draw pretty often nowadays. If they just see that you installed, and dont click to draw, but to do other things, and just take their free draw off of WitRD, you ARENT forcing more agendas in play. Sure, you get a lot of info, but being able to act on that info is always more important than the info itself, and the corp is getting around 1 extra click a turn, essentially.
 
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Scott Rubin
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Tuism wrote:
Apreche wrote:
CommissarFeesh wrote:
Crazy thought - I wonder how WitRD would do in a DLR deck? If the Corp doesn't draw it, and you won't want it either, DLR it away before you run. If they DO draw it, you can accelerate R&D depletion. Don't know how viable this would be, just popped into my head.
DLR won't be consistent because you need to be tagged. That means the corp can trash DLR and also trash the woman, both are resources. A better idea is to simply play it in Noise. See the top card, if they do or do not draw you can decide to mill or not accordingly.


If only Noise and Fisk could double team
Well, so far almost every identity ability has a card that approximates it. Not Whizzard? Play Scrubber/Paricia. Not Kate? Play Personal Workshop. Not HB? Play Alix.

DRL is sort of the card that approximates Noise. More may come. I'm sure there will be some cards that approximate Fisk's ability.
 
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