Recommend
20 
 Thumb up
 Hide
58 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

A Study in Emerald» Forums » Rules

Subject: My proofreading of the rules. rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: favorite_information [+] [View All]
Sean
United States
Westlake Village
California
flag msg tools
My proofreading of the rules.

I just got the game, played a practice game, then proofread the rules. Here are my suggestions for errata.

(1) Agent Counters
William Morris and Wilhelm Stieber do not change identities when turned into a vampire. Treat the tokens as if their identities remain the same when turned into a vampire. (the swapping of these identities on the vampire side is a misprint)

(2) Page 3, Components, Player pieces
Should indicate that there are this amount of pieces for 5 players.
This makes it easier to verify that the correct components are included.

(3) Page 3, Components, Counters.
"Eighteen Sanity counters" should be split into 2 sections
12 'mad' sanity counters
6 'sane' sanity counters
This makes it easier to verify that the correct components are included.

(4) Page 4, Starting the game
Instead of
"You should look at the cards you have been dealt, but keep it secret from other players"
should say
"You should look at the cards you have been dealt, but keep it secret from other players, unless a game effect causes you to reveal your identity"

(5) Page 4, Starting the game
The "zero space" of the Revolution, War, and Victory Point tracks is the first square, not the circle.

(6) Page 5, Playing the game
Says
"If at any time during the game your are forced to lose a card from your hand, draw a replacement card immediately"
Add
"This does not apply to cards you choose to play from your hand."

(7) Page 5, Action: Place Influence Cubes
Says:
"These cubes can be placed on a face-up Game or Permanent Effect card, or in a city box"
Either change to:
"These cubes can be placed on a face-up Game card, on an unowned face-up Permanent Effect card, or in a city box"
Or add the text:
"You can only place cubes on an uncontrolled Permanent Effect card, so you cannot lose control of one when you gain it."

(8) Page 5, Action: Claim one card
Should say "You can claim a card if you have more points of influence than anyone else, with agents breaking ties"

(9) Page 7, Action: Move Markers
Says
"players do not immediately claim victory points gained from here"
Should say
"players do not immediately claim victory points gained from here, unless their identity has already been revealed by another game effect"

(10) Page 8, Scoring Victory Points
While your identity is hidden score points for:
* cities you control
* royal persons you have assassinated as if you were a restorationist
* royal persons you have hidden as if you were a loyalist
* taking the necronomicon

Once your identity is revealed to be restortaionist
* lose any points previously gained from hiding royal persons
* score points shown on the highest victory point earning space on the revolution track
* score points for non-vampire agents that are worth victory points
* if you have "the black hand" card, score an extra 2 points for every royal person you have assassinated, as well as each one you assassinate in the future

Once your identity is revealed to be loyalist
* lose any points previously gained from assassinating royal persons
* score points shown on the highest victory point earning space on the war track
* if you have the "vampire" card, score one point for vampire agent, including your main agent, that you control on the board
* if you have the "zombie" card and all eight zombie pieces are in play, then you score eight points
* if you have the "Yog-Sothoth" card, score 2 points for each agent you have sacrificed to this god
* score 1 point for each agent you have assassinated, including a main agent, that was controlled by a restorationist player (points can be retroactively gained or lost if an opponent changes sides)

If your loyalty is changed while revealed, recompute all of your points as if you started with your new loyalty

You never score twice for assassinating/hiding royalty.
Your VP position should always be possible to calculate at any point in the game depending on the situation. What you score for depends on whether you have revealed your identity and if the game is still in progress or just finished.

(11) Page 10, Assassinate Royalty
Add the following clarification:
"Your main agent is incapable of carrying out an assassination, the card in your starting hand that allows you to carry out an assassination represents a hired assassin."

(12) Page 10, Assassinate Royalty
After the text:
"Once you have carried out an assassination..." "...increase your victory point score by the amount indicated"
Add the text
"unless you are a revealed loyalist"

(13) Page 16, Card Manifest
There is only 1 necronomicon, not 2.

(14) Page 11, Assassinate Agent
When an agent (not a main agent) is killed in any way (with mad counter, assassinated, squashed by Cthulhu etc.), the corresponding agent card is removed from the player's deck (in the same manner as if it were a city card).

(15) Page 14, Zombies
Add the following text:
"A zombie can be placed in any city that is connected to a city that has a zombie in, even one that has just been placed, so you can chain zombies."

* edit 1 - I had missed (13), thanks to Brother Jim for noticing.
* edit 2 - Tried to clarify the rules for a loyalist gaining points for assassination in the event of an opponent changing sides.
* edit 3 - Added (14), clarification about removing agent cards when they die, thanks to Valarus for pointing this out
* edit 4 - Clarified (6) regarding replacing cards. Thanks to woodnoggin for catching it.
* edit 5 - reversed my guess on item (7) regarding stealing permanent effect cards, based on several peoples feedback on this thread.
* edit 6 – looks like my guesses after edit 5 turned out to be correct, as confirmed by an official response by Martin Wallace, so I removed the caveats indicating that my guesses were unconfirmed.
* edit 7 - incorporated Martin Wallace's response into (7) regarding permanent effects, and (10) regarding victory points
* edit 8 - clarification about zombies, thanks to Zsolt Farkas for bringing it up
20 
 Thumb up
2.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sébastien A
Canada
Montreal
Quebec
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
EvilMushroom wrote:
Once your identity is revealed to be restortaionist
* lose any points previously gained from hiding royal persons
[snip]
Once your identity is revealed to be loyalist
* lose any points previously gained from assassinating royal persons

Those are both incorrect. You can never lose any points in this game -- you just don't score them twice.

The swing would be too great if you lost points for those actions. No one would ever risk acting against their allegiance, which would defeat the purpose of having a secret identity.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James
United States
Midlothian
Virginia
flag msg tools
Man is most nearly himself when he achieves...
badge
We don’t stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
coriolis wrote:
EvilMushroom wrote:
Once your identity is revealed to be restortaionist
* lose any points previously gained from hiding royal persons
[snip]
Once your identity is revealed to be loyalist
* lose any points previously gained from assassinating royal persons

Those are both incorrect. You can never lose any points in this game -- you just don't score them twice.

The swing would be too great if you lost points for those actions. No one would ever risk acting against their allegiance, which would defeat the purpose of having a secret identity.


I believe you are incorrect, actually; these points are awarded before loyalties are uncovered and can be lost. That is why on page ten it is listed, "the game still ends even if the player's adjusted score ends up below this threshold." The only way this could occur would be if points scored could indeed be lost, per the examples above. They are not scored twice. Check out Highland Cow's outstanding victory point reference here, too.

Sean, I'll add that on the back page in the card list only one Necronomicon card should be listed, not two as is presently.
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean
United States
Westlake Village
California
flag msg tools
coriolis wrote:
EvilMushroom wrote:
Once your identity is revealed to be restortaionist
* lose any points previously gained from hiding royal persons
[snip]
Once your identity is revealed to be loyalist
* lose any points previously gained from assassinating royal persons

Those are both incorrect. You can never lose any points in this game -- you just don't score them twice.

The swing would be too great if you lost points for those actions. No one would ever risk acting against their allegiance, which would defeat the purpose of having a secret identity.



So does that mean as a loyalist I should be assassinating as many royal persons as I can? Both for the points and for preventing restorationists from getting them?

The theme mismatch of loyalists assassinating royalty is so mind boggling that this interpretation never even occurred to me.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James
United States
Midlothian
Virginia
flag msg tools
Man is most nearly himself when he achieves...
badge
We don’t stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
EvilMushroom wrote:
coriolis wrote:
EvilMushroom wrote:
Once your identity is revealed to be restortaionist
* lose any points previously gained from hiding royal persons
[snip]
Once your identity is revealed to be loyalist
* lose any points previously gained from assassinating royal persons

Those are both incorrect. You can never lose any points in this game -- you just don't score them twice.

The swing would be too great if you lost points for those actions. No one would ever risk acting against their allegiance, which would defeat the purpose of having a secret identity.



So does that mean as a loyalist I should be assassinating as many royal persons as I can? Both for the points and for preventing restorationists from getting them?

The theme mismatch of loyalists assassinating royalty is so mind boggling that this interpretation never even occurred to me.

...not as many as you can because of the opportunity cost of what you would not be doing with your turns and cards (especially if the opportunity to hide royalty came up). However, one assassination would offer a good amount of confusion during early game as to your true identity.
devil

Just to clarify, Sean, you had it right the first time. The points for assassinating and hiding are scored immediately on the track but can be lost after your identity is revealed. They are not scored twice. Some reasons to go against your loyalty and score temporary points include:

1. rushing endgame
2. not allowing the other camp to get the points
3. sowing confusion about your identity
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean
United States
Westlake Village
California
flag msg tools
Brother Jim wrote:
EvilMushroom wrote:
coriolis wrote:
EvilMushroom wrote:
Once your identity is revealed to be restortaionist
* lose any points previously gained from hiding royal persons
[snip]
Once your identity is revealed to be loyalist
* lose any points previously gained from assassinating royal persons

Those are both incorrect. You can never lose any points in this game -- you just don't score them twice.

The swing would be too great if you lost points for those actions. No one would ever risk acting against their allegiance, which would defeat the purpose of having a secret identity.



So does that mean as a loyalist I should be assassinating as many royal persons as I can? Both for the points and for preventing restorationists from getting them?

The theme mismatch of loyalists assassinating royalty is so mind boggling that this interpretation never even occurred to me.

...not as many as you can because of the opportunity cost of what you would not be doing with your turns and cards (especially if the opportunity to hide royalty came up). However, one assassination would offer a good amount of confusion during early game as to your true identity.
devil


True it would add confusion, but would that confusion actually help me win the game? I don't really see much benefit in keeping my identity secret, and the cost of keeping it secret grows by quite a bit as the game continues on.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James
United States
Midlothian
Virginia
flag msg tools
Man is most nearly himself when he achieves...
badge
We don’t stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There has been a lot of discussion about the value of having identities be secret and I think the benefits are real although almost always situational.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
You might try to convince others to help you raise your score because (they think) you're low man on the totem pole on their team. You might be allowed to get an agent close to their agent without them fearing your planned assassination of their agent. Generally speaking, opponents might strike deals they only would agree to if they thought you were helping them such as,"Let me get the vampire card so the loyalists don't get it - this will help all of us," (and you ARE a loyalist). These are a just a few that come to mind. I am keeping mum and keeping others guessing myself!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1603-1714
United States
Georgia
flag msg tools
badge
Now I can add text to my avatar? Sweet! How do I do it?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I just assumed that you could not steal a permanent effect card from another player. I guess it is not clearly stated, but the rules only mention putting cubes on the face up cards by the board.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lawcomic
United States
Tennessee
flag msg tools
badge
The stuff that dreams are made of...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
cagriggs wrote:
I just assumed that you could not steal a permanent effect card from another player. I guess it is not clearly stated, but the rules only mention putting cubes on the face up cards by the board.


I agree. I don't think you can steal permanent effects.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean
United States
Westlake Village
California
flag msg tools
cagriggs wrote:
I just assumed that you could not steal a permanent effect card from another player. I guess it is not clearly stated, but the rules only mention putting cubes on the face up cards by the board.


Where do the rules say "by the board"? The part I am looking at says "These cubes can either be placed on a face-up Game or Permanent Effect Card, or in a City box.".
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean
United States
Westlake Village
California
flag msg tools
Lawcomic wrote:
I don't think you can steal permanent effects.


That would not surprise me. If you could, I would have expected it to be explicitly mentioned. However, the rules literally say that it is being face-up that makes a permanent effect card eligible to have cubes placed on it.

I tend to default to what the rules literally say when it is not clear, but the fact that people (understandably) read it different ways makes me really hope I get an official ruling. Otherwise we the conversation starts going around in circles without getting closer to resolution.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean
United States
Westlake Village
California
flag msg tools
Regarding stealing permanent effects, looks like I am not the first one to notices that this was vague. There is a separate thread discussing it here:

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/13981158
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lawcomic
United States
Tennessee
flag msg tools
badge
The stuff that dreams are made of...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
However, the rules also say you can't claim a card with just cubes. You must also have an agent in the corresponding city. Since you can't move an agent to the city containing another player's cards (as no such city exists), there'd be no way to claim a permanent effect already claimed by another player.

Edited to add: Well, now I'm confused. As the rules are written, I don't think it's technically possible to EVER get a permanent effect card, as they aren't in cities at all...


All of the above was nonsense. Move along.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean
United States
Westlake Village
California
flag msg tools
Lawcomic wrote:
However, the rules also say you can't claim a card with just cubes.


Actually, the rules say the opposite of that, see bottom of page 5.
"you cannot claim a card just with influence gained from your agents"

-edit in response to your edit
Yeah, you can claim a card with just cubes, but you can't claim a card with just agents. So both city and permanent effect cards can still be claimed even though they can never have agents on them.

--edit in response to your second edit
moving along, nothing to see here...
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lawcomic
United States
Tennessee
flag msg tools
badge
The stuff that dreams are made of...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
EvilMushroom wrote:
Lawcomic wrote:
However, the rules also say you can't claim a card with just cubes.


Actually, the rules say the opposite of that, see bottom of page 5.
"you cannot claim a card just with influence gained from your agents"


D'oh! You are, of course, correct.

On closer review, I think you may be right about stealing permanent effects. As written, the rules literally do support that position.

Thanks!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sébastien A
Canada
Montreal
Quebec
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Brother Jim wrote:
I believe you are incorrect, actually; these points are awarded before loyalties are uncovered and can be lost. That is why on page ten it is listed, "the game still ends even if the player's adjusted score ends up below this threshold."

I can't find any explicit reference to losing points at the end of the game in the rulebook, and I don't remember seeing any in previous versions of the rules. Until there is an official statement contradicting this, I would say losing points in final scoring for having done the "wrong" action is strictly a house rule.

-----------------------------

EvilMushroom wrote:
The theme mismatch of loyalists assassinating royalty is so mind boggling that this interpretation never even occurred to me.

Thematically, I interpreted it as infighting between the royals or their associates. If you go back to the original stories, especially those of August Derleth, there were definitely rivalries between some of the Great Old Ones.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean
United States
Westlake Village
California
flag msg tools
coriolis wrote:
I can't find any explicit reference to losing points at the end of the game in the rulebook, and I don't remember seeing any in previous versions of the rules. Until there is an official statement contradicting this, I would say losing points in final scoring for having done the "wrong" action is strictly a house rule.


Well interpreting how that works largely depends on what you think this sentence means:
"When your identity is revealed, you adjust your victory points to give a more accurate total"
So it does explicitly say the total can be inaccurate, and it does explicitly say it can be adjusted.

That is what led me to my particular interpretation. But not having an explicit reference to losing points makes me not entirely sure. Like I said, I think that section of the rules is a mess.

Martin Wallace! I call upon you to enlighten us with your true intentions! (Is it possible to have the truth and your sanity too? I wonder if he is a loyalist and this is a plot to raise madness...)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Chick
United States
Tujunga
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
Excellent list, Sean.

Although I must confess it never even occurred to me that you could claim someone else's permanent effect card. It seems to me once a card is claimed, it belongs to that player unless something in the rules stipulates some way to transfer ownership (i.e. city control, double agents, vampires, etc.).

-Tom
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James
United States
Midlothian
Virginia
flag msg tools
Man is most nearly himself when he achieves...
badge
We don’t stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
I can't find any explicit reference to losing points at the end of the game in the rulebook, and I don't remember seeing any in previous versions of the rules. Until there is an official statement contradicting this, I would say losing points in final scoring for having done the "wrong" action is strictly a house rule.
Coriolis, how in the world would you lose points otherwise? In your reading of the rules how do you make sense of the text "even if the player's adjusted score ends up below this threshold?" Your reading would also contradict James "Highland Cow" Clarke's file regarding victory points and timing. Assassinations and hidings are scored immediately and only reduced after loyalties are revealed. If that were not the case, a bunch of gamers here would be surprised to hear so.

On page nine it is stated:
Quote:
While your identity is a secret you score points for the following:
• cities you control,
• royal ‘persons’ you have assassinated and/or hidden, and
• taking the necronomicon card.
When your identity is revealed you adjust your victory points to give a more accurate total
Only one set of those items is loyalty card dependent. Only one would be adjusted (subtracted) if it didn't match your affiliation when your identity is revealed.

This is not a house rule. It's also not "at the end of the game." It's when the loyalty card is revealed. Don't think of it as the "wrong action"; think of it as a leading action which may ultimately prove to have misled others. I grant you that this could have been made clearer in the rule book.

With regard to the permanent effects transfer, I looked at the other linked thread and the "store front" statement was helpful. While I concede that I am in "spirit of the rules" territory, I see no precedent for taking ownership of cards away from other players once they are off the board and "off display." I don't think they can be taken away from another player.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean
United States
Westlake Village
California
flag msg tools
TomChick wrote:
It seems to me once a card is claimed, it belongs to that player unless something in the rules stipulates some way to transfer ownership

The rules very literally stipulate that you can place influence cubes on face up permanent effect, and that you can claim a card if you have the most influence on it. Perhaps that is not the correct interpretation, but correct or not, that is literally what the rules say.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sebastian Grab
Poland
Gdańsk
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
As for stealing permanent effect cards, I have already gave my opionion in the other threat, I don't think it's possible.

In the first, Kickstarter version of manual, you can find this:

Restorationist players keep points for assassinating leaders
and lose any points gained by ‘Hiding’ royalty.
Loyalist players keep points gained from ‘hiding’ royalty and
lose any points gained from assassinating royal ‘persons’.

http://www.treefroggames.com/print/a-study-in-emerald-rules-...

And I think this more or less proves the point about losing points and not scoring twice. True, it's badly written in the later versions, but it seems to be the same thing.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sébastien A
Canada
Montreal
Quebec
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Brother Jim wrote:
Coriolis, how in the world would you lose points otherwise?

There are at least 2 ways of losing points during the game:
- Losing control of a city
- Discarding the Necronomicon using The Third Section (see description of that card on page 13 of the rulebook)

Brother Jim wrote:
In your reading of the rules how do you make sense of the text "even if the player's adjusted score ends up below this threshold?"

I assume it's a relic from an early draft. Only Mr. Wallace could tell us for sure.

Brother Jim wrote:
Your reading would also contradict James "Highland Cow" Clarke's file regarding victory points and timing.

As far as I know, James is just a fan and is not directly connected to Martin Wallace or Treefrog Games. As such, any rulings are just his personal interpretation (a.k.a. a house rule).

Brother Jim wrote:
Assassinations and hidings are scored immediately and only reduced after loyalties are revealed.
[snip]
This is not a house rule. It's also not "at the end of the game." It's when the loyalty card is revealed.

I agree with the first part ("scored immediately"). You then score them again based on your loyalty when it is revealed (which will be at the end of the game for most players, as described in the "Ending the Game" section on page 10). Nowhere does it say something to the effect of "If you are a loyalist, reduce your total for every royal person assassinated" (or the equivalent for restorationists).

Brother Jim wrote:
Don't think of it as the "wrong action"; think of it as a leading action which may ultimately prove to have misled others.

I completely understand the reasoning behind this; that's why I put 'wrong' in quotes. It's all part of the deception game. But I find the penalty too harsh in your version of the rules.

Bottom line: Not only is your interpretation not supported by the rules as written, it is too severe from a mechanical standpoint. You're talking about at least a 4-point swing per assassination/hiding, which could represent anywhere between 10 and 20% of your score depending on the number of players. That's a lot, and I don't know many persons who would be willing to risk it just to deceive the players on both sides.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sebastian Grab
Poland
Gdańsk
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
coriolis wrote:


Bottom line: Not only is your interpretation not supported by the rules as written, it is too severe from a mechanical standpoint. You're talking about at least a 4-point swing per assassination/hiding, which could represent anywhere between 10 and 20% of your score depending on the number of players. That's a lot, and I don't know many persons who would be willing to risk it just to deceive the players on both sides.



It's not severe - this game is not a race, those victory points play a little bit different role than in other games. It's not about collecting the most, but having the right amount at the right time. You might have the 3rd position and still win if 1st, 2nd and 5th player are from the same faction. Plus, I think that after few plays almost everyone would be willing to make a false assassination just to decive other players. After about 10 games under my belt, I find it very, very important, totally worth it.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Thornton
United States
Canby
Oregon
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Out of curiosity, what in the rules makes you think you score points twice for the same action? If it is the section Scoring Victory Points, then your interpretation would mean you scored everything twice?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James
United States
Midlothian
Virginia
flag msg tools
Man is most nearly himself when he achieves...
badge
We don’t stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
OK, for the sake of argument, leaving aside the Kickstarter draft above...

coriolis wrote:
Brother Jim wrote:
Coriolis, how in the world would you lose points otherwise?

There are at least 2 ways of losing points during the game:
- Losing control of a city
- Discarding the Necronomicon
...and which of those adjust after your loyalty card is revealed? Neither.

I'll quote again page 9:
Quote:
While your identity is a secret you score points for the following:
• cities you control,
• royal ‘persons’ you have assassinated and/or hidden, and
• taking the necronomicon card.
When your identity is revealed you adjust your victory points to give a more accurate total
...and this is also "a relic from a previous draft?"

With regard to "swings," what you are proposing is that points for assassinations and hidings being doubled seems more balanced and in the spirit of the rules? I don't mean to come off as dismissive (really, we're all part of the same geek club), but I'm just surprised that you claim to hold to the principle of literalism in the rules but can dismiss so easily rules which don't fit your interpretation as relics "from an earlier draft."
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.