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Subject: When you have only Wounds in your hand... rss

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Ryan Yan
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Can you choose to take a regular turn instead of slow recovery?

Before you answer, please check the related sections from the rule book (digested below):

A Player's Turn
...
2...
b. You must announce End of the Round if your Deed deck is empty and you have no cards in your hand at the start of your turn.
c. If you have cards in your hand, but your Deed deck is empty, it is up to you whether to announce End of the Round, or whether to play your turn.
d. If you have no cards in your hand and Deed deck, but the End of the Round has already been announced by another player, you must forfeit your turn.
...
4. If you do not forfeit your turn, you have two options: playing a Regular turn, or Resting.
a. In both cases, you have to play or discard at least one card during or at the end of your turn (except if your hand is empty but there are still cards in your Deed deck at the beginning of your turn).
...

=========================================
I didn't find any further clarification regarding this topic in the LL rule book.

So it seems to me that you can still move and/or take actions using your skills or Units if you choose not to rest. But another question appears in this case: how do you do a force discarding as requested in 4.a quoted above...
 
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Donnie Clark
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As long as your regular turn ends with you discarding at least one card from your hand, yes. But if all you have is wounds, the only way I can see that happening is through a unit Heal ability or through a Skill such as Arethya's Power of Pain (not an exhaustive list, for sure.)
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Brian Roundhill
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I do not think you force a discard. If you cannot play at least one card, you cannot take a Regular turn.
 
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Ryan Yan
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Roundhill wrote:
If you cannot play at least one card, you cannot take a Regular turn.


Can you find something from the rule book to support this?
 
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prograft wrote:
Roundhill wrote:
If you cannot play at least one card, you cannot take a Regular turn.


Can you find something from the rule book to support this?


It says in the very rules you quoted that you must play or discard a card whatever you do. This comes before describing what a regular turn or resting turn is, and even if it didn't is worded / written so as to be a paramount rule.
 
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Brian Roundhill
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prograft wrote:
Roundhill wrote:
If you cannot play at least one card, you cannot take a Regular turn.


Can you find something from the rule book to support this?


I stand corrected. Check out End of Turn, 7a. If no cards are played, you must discard.
 
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The Original Thumb #50
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DISCARDING AND
THROWING AWAY
1. If an effect tells you to discard a card, put the discarded card
into your discard pile. You may never discard a Wound card,
unless the effect explicitly allows it.

2. If an effect tells you to throw away a card then:
a. If it is a Wound, put it back in the Wound pile.
b. Otherwise, remove it from the game (return it to the box).
---------------------
Unless you can play an effect that explicitly allows you to discard or play a wound, I think you are forced into resting with a hand full of wounds.

Note that the effects listed under resting (Standard Rest and Slow Recovery) explicitly allow you to discard a wound.
 
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You cannot take a regular turn with just wounds in your hand. You must take a slow recovery (or forfeit your turn).

To take a regular turn you must play or discard a card from your hand. The issue here is that "a card" is defined as something other than a wound. So, even if you heal, that is not considered the act of "discarding a card", since this is "throwing away". Discarding a card is meant as discarding a non-wound card at the end of your turn.

JUST TO QUALIFY: having only wounds is called "EXHAUSTION" and rules related to this are in the Walkthrough book:

"Exhaustion
A Hero is exhausted when he has nothing but Wound cards in his hand at the start of his turn. In such a case, he reveals his hand, and all he can do with his cards this turn is discard one Wound.
He does not lose his turn however, and may use healing and special abilities of his Units, but as with regular Resting, he cannot move or take an action. If he is on a space that provides a benefit at the end of the turn, he can still use it.
"


i.e. if you are wondering whether you can still use your Units whilst you are taking a slow recovery, then the answer is yes, as long as it does not involve moving or taking an action

Hope this helps !

best wishes, Rick

(EDITS: because I'm rubbish at typing!)
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Ryan Yan
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ricky2002 wrote:

JUST TO QUALIFY: having only wounds is called "EXHAUSTION" and rules related to this are in the Walkthrough book:

Thanks, at last I get to know how this common understanding comes from. However, it shall also be emphasized (as in the last clause in the preface of the rule book) that:
Do not try to look up rules in the Game Walkthrough. You should be able to find all the rules in this book or on a Site Description card.

For example, "depleted mana die" is defined in page 6 of the Game Walkthrough, but nowhere in the rule book. Quite a few concerns were raised toward this concept but it is now commonly accepted here that there's no rule for a "depleted mana die", simply because it's not in the rule book (example 1, example 2).

Similarly, this "Exhaustion" exists only in the Game Walkthrough but you can NOT find it in the rule book.

P.S.
The original wording of EoT 7a is:
"If you did not play or discard any cards during your turn, you must discard at least one card now."

It doesn't even distinguish a regular turn from a resting turn here (in another word, you have to play or discard a card in a resting turn, too!).

So I don't think it's relevant to this topic.
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prograft wrote:
...this "Exhaustion" exists only in the Game Walkthrough but you can NOT find it in the rule book.


Yes, this is a problem. The rulebook itself does not cover 100% everything
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prograft wrote:


So I don't think it's relevant to this topic.


Not sure what you mean by this... the Exhaustion rule is the one you are looking for and answers your query. Assuming anything in the Walkthrough is not a real rule will be at your peril

Enjoy your games ! Best wishes, Rick.
 
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prograft wrote:


P.S.
The original wording of EoT 7a is:
"If you did not play or discard any cards during your turn, you must discard at least one card now."

It doesn't even distinguish a regular turn from a resting turn here (in another word, you have to play or discard a card in a resting turn.


Sure, but you explicitly cannot discard wounds unless told explicitly ("discard a wound") otherwise.
 
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prograft wrote:
So it seems to me that you can still move and/or take actions using your skills or Units if you choose not to rest. But another question appears in this case: how do you do a force discarding as requested in 4.a quoted above...


Are you able to meet the requirements of a non rest turn, and discard a card?

If not, then you can not perform any type of turn which requires a discarded card.
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prograft wrote:
ricky2002 wrote:

JUST TO QUALIFY: having only wounds is called "EXHAUSTION" and rules related to this are in the Walkthrough book:

Thanks, at last I get to know how this common understanding comes from. However, it shall also be emphasized (as in the last clause in the preface of the rule book) that:
Do not try to look up rules in the Game Walkthrough. You should be able to find all the rules in this book or on a Site Description card.

For example, "depleted mana die" is defined in page 6 of the Game Walkthrough, but nowhere in the rule book. Quite a few concerns were raised toward this concept but it is now commonly accepted here that there's no rule for a "depleted mana die", simply because it's not in the rule book (example 1, example 2).

Similarly, this "Exhaustion" exists only in the Game Walkthrough but you can NOT find it in the rule book.

P.S.
The original wording of EoT 7a is:
"If you did not play or discard any cards during your turn, you must discard at least one card now."

It doesn't even distinguish a regular turn from a resting turn here (in another word, you have to play or discard a card in a resting turn, too!).

So I don't think it's relevant to this topic.


The new official FAQ will look to resolve this misunderstanding. e.g. it will clarify that there is a rule for a "depleted mana die."
 
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Peter Van den Broeck
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There is some contradiction in this.

Quote:
Are you able to meet the requirements of a non rest turn, and discard a card?

If not, then you can not perform any type of turn which requires a discarded card.



Quote:
"Exhaustion
A Hero is exhausted when he has nothing but Wound cards in his hand at the start of his turn. In such a case, he reveals his hand, and all he can do with his cards this turn is discard one Wound.
He does not lose his turn however, and may use healing and special abilities of his Units, but as with regular Resting, he cannot move or take an action. If he is on a space that provides a benefit at the end of the turn, he can still use it.
"


Take the following situarion: you are Arythea, you have the power of pain skill deployed and you have plenty of wounds in your hand.

According to first interpretation, you can play one wound card, move 2 and discard the wound card.
According to second interpretation, you can only do a slow rest, do nothing and discard one wound card.

So, what can you do? Move 2 or not?

P
 
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Magnesi
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Phyriphiry wrote:
There is some contradiction in this.
The Walkthrough is NOT a rulebook. It explained a simplified version of the rules, without considering corner cases. In a lot of cases, as here, it contradicts the rulebook. Therefore, we must always use the rulebook to discuss about the rules (read the very first page of the rulebook, it says that we shouldn't use the WT to check rules).

We have discussed this situation in other posts (for instance, here). It is clear that if you have wound and non-wound cards, you can just play a wound with power of pain and end your turn; or you can discard a wound with I feel no pain, draw a card and end your turn. In both cases, you have played or discarded a card, so the turn is valid.

It isn't 100% clear if, when you have only wounds, you can do that. As David pointed out in the linked thread, LL rulebook indicates that you can't fully attend when you only have wounds (even if you have power of pain); that could be interpreted as you can't take a normal turn if you don't have a non-wound card (even with power of pain). While I'm not convinced with his explanation, I have to say that the other interpretation (you can take a normal turn even if you have only wounds) may lead to impossible situations (example 2 of the first post of the linked thread).
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syzygia wrote:
It isn't 100% clear if, when you have only wounds, you can do that. As David pointed out in the linked thread, LL rulebook indicates that you can't fully attend when you only have wounds (even if you have power of pain); that could be interpreted as you can't take a normal turn if you don't have a non-wound card (even with power of pain).


No, I disagree it is clear.

The rules here are separate issues lets look at them.

1. All valid turns require a discard or played card. (regular or rest)

2a. There is NO rule saying that a card discared or played as part of a turn can't be a wound,
2b. There is a rule that says you can not discard or play wounds, but some skills get past this.

3. "power of pain" and "I feel no pain" both are skills that allow you to discard or play wounds. Thus you could meet the requirements of a regular turn by discarding or playing a wounds with them, even before you chose the type of turn you are taking.
(LL rules, Exact game sequence, Turn sequence overview, point note 3. Page 10.)

4. The rules don't stop you taking a regular turn with a hand only containing wounds provided you can meet the regular turn requirements. ie: discard a valid card. (they do restrict your type of rest however.)

5. If you do chose to rest you could still use "Power of Pain" in a slow rest as you are allowed to generate movement and influence pools as specials, even if you can't move. (ll rules, detailed game concepts, move and influence effects, page 9.)

6. You can use "I feel no pain", before the type of rest is chosen. (exact game sequence, turn overview page 10.)

7. (I digress) The Rule that David points too is actually not well laid out, its in the "exact game sequence, fighting in other players turns page 10". I would wager that the rules team who wrote that sequence did not even consider that a player with only wounds might be able to play a valid Regular turn.
 
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Have you read the thread I linked? I agree with your interpretation, but I don't know how to solve this situation:
syzygia wrote:
- Example 2: You only have wounds at hand; you have invocation and one moving skill, and catapults are ready and unwounded.
You decide to take a regular turn; you want to use invocation to discard a wound to feed the catapults. So, you move and initiate PvP. Before your turn to attack, it's your opponent's range attack phase, and he wounds your catapults there. Now you can't use invocation, so you can't fulfill the discard one card requirement.


That situation can't occur with David's interpretation. For me, he has a strong point here.
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syzygia wrote:
Have you read the thread I linked? I agree with your interpretation, but I don't know how to solve this situation:
syzygia wrote:
- Example 2: You only have wounds at hand; you have invocation and one moving skill, and catapults are ready and unwounded.
You decide to take a regular turn; you want to use invocation to discard a wound to feed the catapults. So, you move and initiate PvP. Before your turn to attack, it's your opponent's range attack phase, and he wounds your catapults there. Now you can't use invocation, so you can't fulfill the discard one card requirement.


That situation can't occur with David's interpretation. For me, he has a strong point here.

Agreed. Allowing a regular turn with a hand full of Wounds can lead to a contradiction between: "If you did not play or discard any cards during your turn, you must discard at least one card now." and "Wound cards can never be discarded, unless effect explicitly states otherwise." Resolving it would require errata, and the least disruptive may be David's idea of extending the ban on all-Wound attending to include all-Wound turns.

I was initially very tempted to instead conclude that one Wound would be discarded at the end of the turn. "If you did not play or discard any cards during your turn, you must discard at least one card now." is the only place in the rulebook that a discarded card is not specifically required to be a non-Wound. The phrase "discard a non-Wound card" is repeatedly used everywhere else, despite its technical redundancy given the Wound rule. However, if this phrase covered Wounds, would make Slow Recovery pointless, since it would be strictly worse than taking a regular turn.
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Agree. Another possible interpretation is that you can't take a normal turn if you can guarantee that you'll be playing/discarding a card. In that case, you must rest on the example 2 situation, but you can take a normal turn if you have Power of pain and wounds (notice that the example is really a corner situation; I can't imagine any other situation like that).
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syzygia wrote:
That situation can't occur with David's interpretation. For me, he has a strong point here.

Agreed it can't but the rules on the other cases, which are far more normal plays than what you suggest, work just fine. What David and you suggest limit play in a way that is not vaild. To play a regular turn all you have to do is discard or play a card, any card.

There are several ways you could approach the edge case you suggest.

1. An illegitimate play has occurred roll back to the last legitimate move.
(this is the valid but I think bad solution, you've revealed the defenders hand.)

2. As the attacker is unable to compete a valid turn his turn ends immediately.

3. Or as you say, you must be able to guarantee the play/discard of 1 card to take a turn, which means that the attacker could not initiate PVP in that circumstance.

Personally I think 3 is the best solution. (In a social game I would accept good faith and allow both 1 and 2 as solutions as well.)

 
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Matt Bauers
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What about with Krang's Regenerate skill?

Suppose I have no deed deck and only wounds in my hand. Can I throw away a wound with Regenerate by using the source? Can I still get a crystal from the mine? Does throwing away a wound count as "playing or discarding" a card?
 
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Trevin Beattie
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mbauers1 wrote:
What about with Krang's Regenerate skill?

Suppose I have no deed deck and only wounds in my hand. Can I throw away a wound with Regenerate by using the source?


Rule book, page 5, “A Player’s Turn” 6b wrote:
Before or after you Rest for the turn, you may play any number of Healing and Special effects.


mbauers1 wrote:
Can I still get a crystal from the mine?


Rule book, page 5, “A Player’s Turn” 3 wrote:
If you forfeit your turn, your turn ends immediately; you cannot even use the benefits of a map space you occupy (mines or magical glade).


(The corollary is that you do follow the normal End of the Turn sequence if you did not announce the End of the Round.)

mbauers1 wrote:
Does throwing away a wound count as "playing or discarding" a card?


These are two different concepts.

Rule book, page 5, “Discarding and Throwing Away” wrote:
1. If an effect tells you to discard a card, put the discarded card into your discard pile. You may never discard a Wound card, unless the effect explicitly allows it.

2. If an effect tells you to throw away a card then:
a. If it is a Wound, put it back in the Wound pile.
b. Otherwise, remove it from the game (return it to the box).

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Just to complete Trevin's answer: if you have just 1 wound, you can't use regenerate (since you will end your turn without having played or discard a card). You can either declare the end of round (and you won't get the crystal from the mine) or rest, discard a card, and gain a crystal.

If you have more wounds, you can regenerate, throwing away a wound, and then rest, discarding another one. Since you have played a turn, you'll get the crystal of the mine.
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