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Subject: Do shoot modifiers effect mortar range? rss

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Damen Parker
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My 2" mortars have a 6 square minimum range and a 16 square maximum range. Do shoot modifiers impact the effective range?

I would say no as the mortar shell goes up and over but I am seeking clarification rather than have a debate mid game.

Cheers
D.
 
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Gordon Parker
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Hi Damen,

Excellent observation.

Not yet tested mortars.

My gut instinct, would be that the modifier for the area that the shell is landing in would have an effect and also if there are trees & buildings obscuring the view, these should have an effect, if only on accuracy.

Not really sure how this translates in rules, but, I think I would continue to use modifiers as per shooting to allow for these factors.

Another solution may be to allow modifier of landing area only to be considered in calculation, but, this would probably need either clear site of target by firer or another soldier with clear view of target and a communication source(radio) or within rally range so verbal instruction can be given.

Not sure how weather/wind effect mortar. Will consider that as it is summer that the effect is minimal.

Night time scenarios effect on mortar accuracy. Halve factors?

As usual all of the above are my personal view and in no way have come from anything I have read.

I look forward to the responses.

Gordon









 
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Mayor Jim
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Hmmm...good interpretations. I think in the absence of an "official" clarification I would include all the Shoot modifiers. For me, it just keeps everything on an equal footing...I hate "exceptions" shake
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Damen Parker
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Night rules double hide and look modifiers as stated in the scenarios and shoot modifiers over 3 squares. I don't have an issue with accuracy as to me this is reflected in the VP cost and the fact that the target had to be sighted first plus you have to check for a hit and a subsequent damage check as well.


A couple of woodland terrain single squares -3 modifiers in and all of a sudden you can shell someone very close on the map (6 square minimum condition is met).

I know quite often a soldier with a long range of 16 squares finds himself unable to shoot as modifiers sometimes really stack up depending on the geography. I'm just thinking that the mortar shell would go up and follow it's trajectory regardless of trees in the way.

I appreciate the game is abstract on points like this and I love it's simplicity. I just want to play the mortars how they are intended to be played.

I'll drop JB a GM for a yes/no answer.

Cheers
D.
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Greg
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DeviousDamen wrote:
My 2" mortars have a 6 square minimum range and a 16 square maximum range. Do shoot modifiers impact the effective range?

I would say no as the mortar shell goes up and over but I am seeking clarification rather than have a debate mid game.

Cheers
D.



While the mortar shells go up and over, maybe part of the Shoot modifiers takes into account visual obstructions, accuracy and even how some terrain features could soak up damage/protect the defenders.

Modifiers can work in favor to get closer shots than the 6 square minimum, perhaps the mortar soldier is skilled enough to drop it real close in that situation or use it to hit tree tops or a building to cause debris damage.

16 squares is pretty nice and should allow for some neat attacks against soldiers needing to be defensive in holding a landmark.
 
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Mayor Jim
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Great comments from all...but still would rather get an "official" answer whistle
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Damen Parker
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I finally got round to building my Merville Gun Battery. I thought I would try my mortars against a MG bunker. The MG bunker has a shoot modifier of -6. Now I am thinking that the mortars will use the shoot modifiers - after all the bunker is hard to hit but I can build a case either way (I have a hang up over range). In the absence of specific rules I must presume that mortars do indeed take in to account the shoot modifiers.

Annoyingly the scenarios that come with the battery deny the Brits any equipment so no mortars. Fortunately when I play this solitaire I can rewrite the scenario. Playing this will give me good knowledge regarding the MG bunker and the mortars and hopefully things will fall in to place for me.

Unfortunately I return to work tomorrow. It may well be the weekend of the 11th Jan before I get to play.
 
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Jeff Billings
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Yes

2 In. Mortars are a plunging attack direct fire weapons. That means all Shoot Modifiers count (Direct Fire.) Gunners must have enough depth perception to see the fall of shot accurately and adjust. The Minimum range does not change. Otherwise I would have to deal with increasing scatter effects from unstable guns...

Quote:
Week 9??? of Fire Control School I had to solve a 500 page fire control problem with a pencil and a slide rule. (Shoes were optional in the Navy back in those days...)


The maximum range is reduced because the gunner on that weapon cannot tell where the round is falling with accuracy because of clutter in the line of sight - hence direct fire.

Quote:
Optional - Supporting Artillery Rules that come out in the future with your officers. (These were used when the tanks rolled at Historicon 2013)

The gunner places the fall of shot marker in the target Map Square. Shooting Player pulls a Blast Hit Check. Hit it stays - Miss it Moves to any adjacent Square. Then the targeted Player does the same. After the point of impact is determined resolve the attack normally at the target location.

This covers all indirect artillery attacks of 4.2" inches (105mm) rounds and higher. If you want to use these rules as an optional system they will be used for medium and heavy artillery on call by a forward observer or officer with communication ability to an artillery network. I don't use them because Squad Mortars (Light Mortars) are direct fire weapons. Medium Mortars are usually able to plot fire if set up. They could use this system (8cm and up).
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Mayor Jim
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Jeff Billings wrote:

Quote:
Optional - Supporting Artillery Rules that come out in the future with your officers. (These were used when the tanks rolled at Historicon 2013)

The gunner places the fall of shot marker in the target Map Square. Shooting Player pulls a Blast Hit Check. Hit it stays - Miss it Moves to any adjacent Square. Then the targeted Player does the same. After the point of impact is determined resolve the attack normally at the target location.

This covers all indirect artillery attacks of 4.2" inches (105mm) rounds and higher. If you want to use these rules as an optional system they will be used for medium and heavy artillery on call...

Hmmm....so, my gunner places a shot marker in a landmark full of Germans, I then pull a blast hit check and it misses. I move the marker to an adjacent square (which in this case is vacant). Now the German pulls a blast hit check and gets a miss; so he moves the marker to an adjacent square which holds some of my guys...Kablewy! I now must pull a blast hit check...hopefully, it's another miss whistle. The optional indirect fire could really backfire on you...I'll have to try this one out...
 
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Jeff Billings
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Correct understanding - that is how called fire from medium artillery risks "Danger Close".
 
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Michael Bowker
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MayorJim wrote:
Jeff Billings wrote:

Quote:
Optional - Supporting Artillery Rules that come out in the future with your officers. (These were used when the tanks rolled at Historicon 2013)

The gunner places the fall of shot marker in the target Map Square. Shooting Player pulls a Blast Hit Check. Hit it stays - Miss it Moves to any adjacent Square. Then the targeted Player does the same. After the point of impact is determined resolve the attack normally at the target location.

This covers all indirect artillery attacks of 4.2" inches (105mm) rounds and higher. If you want to use these rules as an optional system they will be used for medium and heavy artillery on call...

Hmmm....so, my gunner places a shot marker in a landmark full of Germans, I then pull a blast hit check and it misses. I move the marker to an adjacent square (which in this case is vacant). Now the German pulls a blast hit check and gets a miss; so he moves the marker to an adjacent square which holds some of my guys...Kablewy! I now must pull a blast hit check...hopefully, it's another miss whistle. The optional indirect fire could really backfire on you...I'll have to try this one out...


It can BACKFIRE on you, as most of my American squad was wiped out by American artillery at Historicon. Danger Close is putting it mildly.
 
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pvi99th wrote:
MayorJim wrote:
Jeff Billings wrote:

Quote:
Optional - Supporting Artillery Rules that come out in the future with your officers. (These were used when the tanks rolled at Historicon 2013)

The gunner places the fall of shot marker in the target Map Square. Shooting Player pulls a Blast Hit Check. Hit it stays - Miss it Moves to any adjacent Square. Then the targeted Player does the same. After the point of impact is determined resolve the attack normally at the target location.

This covers all indirect artillery attacks of 4.2" inches (105mm) rounds and higher. If you want to use these rules as an optional system they will be used for medium and heavy artillery on call...

Hmmm....so, my gunner places a shot marker in a landmark full of Germans, I then pull a blast hit check and it misses. I move the marker to an adjacent square (which in this case is vacant). Now the German pulls a blast hit check and gets a miss; so he moves the marker to an adjacent square which holds some of my guys...Kablewy! I now must pull a blast hit check...hopefully, it's another miss whistle. The optional indirect fire could really backfire on you...I'll have to try this one out...


It can BACKFIRE on you, as most of my American squad was wiped out by American artillery at Historicon. Danger Close is putting it mildly.

Yep...and that's the chance you take...meeple
 
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Jeff Pseudonym
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pvi99th wrote:
It can BACKFIRE on you, as most of my American squad was wiped out by American artillery at Historicon. Danger Close is putting it mildly.


I totally remember that. It would have been hilarious if I had not been US as well. It reminds me of watching a football game with back-to-back interceptions. I'll say this though; artillery does encourage you to adopt some real world tactics such as spreading out.

-Jeff M.
 
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Damen Parker
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Thanks for the clarification Jeff B.

I used the mortars in a couple of scenarios today. I'm using the blast template (same one as for grenades) on the end of the measuring rule. Even using my cheapest mortar and loader the 'team' costs 14VP plus 1VP per round. I took 4.

Essentially I am paying for the ability to throw a grenade up to 16 squares. Once out of ammo the team become useful with their stens.

I'm going to have to experiment a bit more with these guys to see if they are worth the VP. Currently I am a lousy shot despite having a high (80%+) chance of pulling a hit on the blast check.

Cheers
D.
 
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DeviousDamen wrote:
Thanks for the clarification Jeff B.

I used the mortars in a couple of scenarios today. I'm using the blast template (same one as for grenades) on the end of the measuring rule. Even using my cheapest mortar and loader the 'team' costs 14VP plus 1VP per round. I took 4.

Essentially I am paying for the ability to throw a grenade up to 16 squares. Once out of ammo the team become useful with their stens.

I'm going to have to experiment a bit more with these guys to see if they are worth the VP. Currently I am a lousy shot despite having a high (80%+) chance of pulling a hit on the blast check.

Cheers
D.

Shouldn't you be using the larger blast template vs the grenade one?
 
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Greg
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Jeff Billings wrote:


2 In. Mortars are a plunging attack direct fire weapons. That means all Shoot Modifiers count (Direct Fire.) Gunners must have enough depth perception to see the fall of shot accurately and adjust. The Minimum range does not change. Otherwise I would have to deal with increasing scatter effects from unstable guns...



So the minimum range of 6, does that include modifiers? So if the mortar is 3 squares away "physically" from the target, but there is -3 in shoot modifiers between the two, then the mortar is at 6 range technically with the modifiers included and thus can fire at that target, right? The mortar and target don't have to physically be 6 squares away minimum right?
 
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Charlie Theel
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Hahma wrote:
Jeff Billings wrote:


2 In. Mortars are a plunging attack direct fire weapons. That means all Shoot Modifiers count (Direct Fire.) Gunners must have enough depth perception to see the fall of shot accurately and adjust. The Minimum range does not change. Otherwise I would have to deal with increasing scatter effects from unstable guns...



So the minimum range of 6, does that include modifiers? So if the mortar is 3 squares away "physically" from the target, but there is -3 in shoot modifiers between the two, then the mortar is at 6 range technically with the modifiers included and thus can fire at that target, right? The mortar and target don't have to physically be 6 squares away minimum right?


I would think they do physically have to be minimum 6 squares away as the minimum represents the trajectory limitations of the weapon (you're lobbing rounds as opposed to directly firing a PIAT). This does bring up issues where with certain terrain combinations you may not even be able to shoot (5 squares away with -3 Shoot in each square would be 20 range).

Honestly, indirect fire weapons don't work well at this scale is the real issue.
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Good point...
 
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Greg
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charlest wrote:
Hahma wrote:
Jeff Billings wrote:


2 In. Mortars are a plunging attack direct fire weapons. That means all Shoot Modifiers count (Direct Fire.) Gunners must have enough depth perception to see the fall of shot accurately and adjust. The Minimum range does not change. Otherwise I would have to deal with increasing scatter effects from unstable guns...



So the minimum range of 6, does that include modifiers? So if the mortar is 3 squares away "physically" from the target, but there is -3 in shoot modifiers between the two, then the mortar is at 6 range technically with the modifiers included and thus can fire at that target, right? The mortar and target don't have to physically be 6 squares away minimum right?


I would think they do physically have to be minimum 6 squares away as the minimum represents the trajectory limitations of the weapon (you're lobbing rounds as opposed to directly firing a PIAT). This does bring up issues where with certain terrain combinations you may not even be able to shoot (5 squares away with -3 Shoot in each square would be 20 range).

Honestly, indirect fire weapons don't work well at this scale is the real issue.



Well then if it's 6 physical squares away, you are going to be super restricted in using this weapon because of the map size required and having the enemy oblige you by keeping 6+ physical squares away from you.

Though I'm still not sure that it would have to be 6 physical squares. I mean this thing isn't a 105mm howitzer. I would think that they could get that tube more vertical for some close shots
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Hahma wrote:
charlest wrote:
Hahma wrote:
Jeff Billings wrote:


2 In. Mortars are a plunging attack direct fire weapons. That means all Shoot Modifiers count (Direct Fire.) Gunners must have enough depth perception to see the fall of shot accurately and adjust. The Minimum range does not change. Otherwise I would have to deal with increasing scatter effects from unstable guns...



So the minimum range of 6, does that include modifiers? So if the mortar is 3 squares away "physically" from the target, but there is -3 in shoot modifiers between the two, then the mortar is at 6 range technically with the modifiers included and thus can fire at that target, right? The mortar and target don't have to physically be 6 squares away minimum right?


I would think they do physically have to be minimum 6 squares away as the minimum represents the trajectory limitations of the weapon (you're lobbing rounds as opposed to directly firing a PIAT). This does bring up issues where with certain terrain combinations you may not even be able to shoot (5 squares away with -3 Shoot in each square would be 20 range).

Honestly, indirect fire weapons don't work well at this scale is the real issue.



Well then if it's 6 physical squares away, then you are going to be super restricted in using this weapon because of the map size required and having the enemy oblige you by keeping 6+ physical squares away from you.

Though I'm still not sure that it would have to be 6 physical squares. I mean this thing isn't a 105mm howitzer. I would think that they could get that tube more vertical for some close shots

Agreed...good point
 
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Kevin Rohrer
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Jeff Billings wrote:
Yes
The Minimum range does not change. Otherwise I would have to deal with increasing scatter effects from unstable guns....


This to me means that 6-hexes is the absolute minimum range.

Personally, I would think that a 3-hex minimum range is both more realistic and makes the mortar more usable, it's just my opinion.
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Kevin Rohrer wrote:
Jeff Billings wrote:
Yes
The Minimum range does not change. Otherwise I would have to deal with increasing scatter effects from unstable guns....


This to me means that 6-hexes is the absolute minimum range.

Personally, I would think that a 3-hex minimum range is both more realistic and makes the mortar more usable, it's just my opinion.


Hmm...well if that's the case, then I won't be ordering the mortar team.
 
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Hahma wrote:
Kevin Rohrer wrote:
Jeff Billings wrote:
Yes
The Minimum range does not change. Otherwise I would have to deal with increasing scatter effects from unstable guns....


This to me means that 6-hexes is the absolute minimum range.

Personally, I would think that a 3-hex minimum range is both more realistic and makes the mortar more usable, it's just my opinion.


Hmm...well if that's the case, then I won't be ordering the mortar team.

Because of a 3 hex range vs a 6 hex range? I guess I'm confused as to why?
 
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MayorJim wrote:
Hahma wrote:
Kevin Rohrer wrote:
Jeff Billings wrote:
Yes
The Minimum range does not change. Otherwise I would have to deal with increasing scatter effects from unstable guns....


This to me means that 6-hexes is the absolute minimum range.

Personally, I would think that a 3-hex minimum range is both more realistic and makes the mortar more usable, it's just my opinion.


Hmm...well if that's the case, then I won't be ordering the mortar team.

Because of a 3 hex range vs a 6 hex range? I guess I'm confused as to why?


I meant the first part of where Kevin believes that 6 square minimum is a physical space minimum. A 3 physical space minimum would be fine for me, but if it is indeed 6, then it would be hard to get into games unless the maps were huge. I mean even if you are playing on a 6x8 tiles map, you'd have to have your mortar on a border tile to get to shoot stuff with it, and then when the enemy moves closer than 6 spaces, you run out of room to back up and turn to the Sten.
 
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Charlie Theel
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Hahma wrote:
MayorJim wrote:
Hahma wrote:
Kevin Rohrer wrote:
Jeff Billings wrote:
Yes
The Minimum range does not change. Otherwise I would have to deal with increasing scatter effects from unstable guns....


This to me means that 6-hexes is the absolute minimum range.

Personally, I would think that a 3-hex minimum range is both more realistic and makes the mortar more usable, it's just my opinion.


Hmm...well if that's the case, then I won't be ordering the mortar team.

Because of a 3 hex range vs a 6 hex range? I guess I'm confused as to why?


I meant the first part of where Kevin believes that 6 square minimum is a physical space minimum. A 3 physical space minimum would be fine for me, but if it is indeed 6, then it would be hard to get into games unless the maps were huge. I mean even if you are playing on a 6x8 tiles map, you'd have to have your mortar on a border tile to get to shoot stuff with it, and then when the enemy moves closer than 6 spaces, you run out of room to back up and turn to the Sten.



Hmm, you're right. I didn't think about the map size specifically when I responded earlier.
 
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