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Subject: Newbie question about hosting. rss

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Dave Thatshall
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My apologies if this has been said before, but only been playing since Christmas.

Are hosted cards in play?

For example, if I use Personal Workshop, to host a Femme Fatale, can it be used to hack Sentry type Ice?

I can understand that the install effect of Femme would not trigger until after it leaves Personal Workshop, but other than the install affects of Femme, is the card active?

Thanks.
 
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Tim Meng
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Spadge1971 wrote:

For example, if I use Personal Workshop, to host a Femme Fatale, can it be used to hack Sentry type Ice?


You actually mentioned the one example of hosted cards that are not in play. Personal Workshop allows you to host cards without having installed them, and only installed cards are considered active and in play. Thus, cards hosted on Personal Workshop are not active and in play.

In all other cases (thus far) where cards become hosted, you have to install them, thus putting them in play where they are then active, with the exception of Awakening Center, where the Corp installs ice unrezzed. In that case, the card is still in play, but not active yet, just like all Corp cards that aren't rezzed.
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Dave Thatshall
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Hi, And thank you for the reply..

As most answers given, regarding questions about this game seem to do, I now have more questions.

After reading your response, I looked at the differences between Workshop and Dinosaurus.

Is the difference due to the card type, Hardware vs Resource??
As the text of the cards do not seem to state that the hosted card is Installed at any point, until after all power counters leave it when on Workshop. So up until that point, why is a card on Dinosaurus considered Installed, compared to being on Personal Workshop?

Also, I have seen people using Workshop, and when removing a card off it, into install, having to scrap other programs in order to maintain MU amount. So it would seem that Workshops text, of "ignoring all costs" does not count the MU, so does cost always mean credits?



 
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No, you're not crazy. There is no way to tell PW works that way by reading the card. The FAQ explains that cards hosted on it aren't active, but stops short of errata-ing its text for some reason.
 
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Oh and yeah MU isn't a cost even though some cards say "MU cost". It's easier to think of it as a restriction that is checked continually, not a cost that is paid once.
 
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Sohum Banerjea
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DrTall wrote:
No, you're not crazy. There is no way to tell PW works that way by reading the card. The FAQ explains that cards hosted on it aren't active, but stops short of errata-ing its text for some reason.


There is actually a way to tell, but it's pretty subtle.

Dinosaurus wrote:
Dinosaurus can host a single non-AI icebreaker.


Personal Workshop wrote:
[Click]: Host a program or piece of hardware from your grip on Personal Workshop


So Dinosaurus just states that it's an appropriate location for certain cards that can be hosted. Since all non-AI icebreakers are programs, we need some way for the program to come into play before Dinosaurus can host it. So we turn to our old friend, the basic install action, on your Runner reference card, which states pretty clearly: "[Click]: Install a program, resource, or piece of hardware.".

However, you're not using that basic install action for Personal Workshop. You're using Workshop's own click ability, that merely says to host the card on PW, not to install it.

The rulebook currently clarifies this thus:

Quote:
The state of hosting is distinct (but not exclusive from) the state of installing. Most cards are hosted on another card when they are installed. If a card is hosted but not installed, the card is inactive.
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Harris Enniss
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Spadge1971 wrote:

After reading your response, I looked at the differences between Workshop and Dinosaurus.

Is the difference due to the card type, Hardware vs Resource??
As the text of the cards do not seem to state that the hosted card is Installed at any point, until after all power counters leave it when on Workshop. So up until that point, why is a card on Dinosaurus considered Installed, compared to being on Personal Workshop?


Look at Dinosaurus and ask yourself how you host something on it. Do you click to host a card? No. You can only take those actions enumerated in the rulebook, and those made available by active cards. "Click: Host a card" isn't an option.

"Click: Install a card" is an option. When you install a non-AI icebreaker, you may do so on Dinosaurus. Why? Because Dinosaurus says it may host such a card. All the other aspects of installation apply, which is why Dinosaurus doesn't need to clarify that you pay the install cost of the hosted card.

Can you install a card on Personal Workshop? No. Because Personal Workshop lacks the constant ability "Personal Workshop may host ...".

While Personal Workshop is in play, you have access to the paid ability "Click: Host a program or piece of hardware from your grip..." You don't pay the install cost of the card at this time, because you're not using the action "Click: Install a Card." The hosted card is not active, because it has not yet been installed.

Quote:
Also, I have seen people using Workshop, and when removing a card off it, into install, having to scrap other programs in order to maintain MU amount. So it would seem that Workshops text, of "ignoring all costs" does not count the MU, so does cost always mean credits?


Yes. The phrase "Memory Cost" is unfortunate. I agree with DrTall.
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Jeremy Diachuk
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"Memory Cost" in this case isn't something that you pay. It's more akin to a "memory requirement".

Saying to install something but to ignore all costs wouldn't ignore MU costs, since MU is never something that you "pay" to install something - you therefore always ignore it while installing something. But then, before that installed card enters play, you have to trash programs (or itself) until you're below the requisite total MU. This, for example, is a way for a Runner to trash a program from play (normally, you can't just trash a program whenever you want - so if you want to get rid of your Femme Fatale so you can get it back with Deja Vu or something in order to get her able to bypass a different piece of Ice, you actually have to install more programs than you have MU for so you can trash her).

This is allowed because "Memory Cost" is a well-defined term which simply refers to the MU listed in the upper-left of the card which determines how much MU the program requires, which isn't actually a cost of the card at all.


(If there was a program that said "As an additional cost to install ~this program~, pay (Click)", you would ignore that with PW, since that's specified as a cost. By default, only Credit costs are actually costs)
 
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Gregory Pettigrew
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taggedjc wrote:
Saying to install something but to ignore all costs wouldn't ignore MU costs, since MU is never something that you "pay" to install something - you therefore always ignore it while installing something. But then, before that installed card enters play, you have to trash programs (or itself) until you're below the requisite total MU.


Note you are not allowed to trash the program you are currently installing.
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taggedjc wrote:
"This, for example, is a way for a Runner to trash a program from play (normally, you can't just trash a program whenever you want - so if you want to get rid of your Femme Fatale so you can get it back with Deja Vu or something in order to get her able to bypass a different piece of Ice, you actually have to install more programs than you have MU for so you can trash her).


Incorrect. You may trash a program whenever you install a program. If the new program leads to the MU limit to be exceeded then you must trash a program.

The relevant rules text (p. 15):
"If the MU costs of the Runner’s installed programs ever exceed his available MU, he must trash his installed programs until he is no longer exceeding his available MU.

The Runner can choose to trash any number of his installed programs at the beginning of an install program action."

So you declare an install action. You then trash any program you want and install a new one. If the new program leads to memory requirements not being met, you must trash at the end of the install action (i.e. if you have 4MU and programs worth 4 MU are installed and you want to install a 1 MU program you may trash something before you place the new program or afterwards, in case of the latter you can opt for the program you just installed).

This is different for PW, because installing things off workshop is not an install action - you have to trash programs until you are within your MU limits after installing from workshop, but you can not trash programs using the "may choose" rule above. This is mostly relevant for things like IMP - you´ve got an empty IMP as your sole program. You can trash IMP as part of an install of say a datasucker and play retrieval run (a decent play for Noise in quite a few cases). But if that datasucker was on a PW at the beginning of your turn and had its counter removed, it would get installed and you would not be able to use this to trash the IMP.

It´s also worth noting that you trash programs to get within memory limits as soon as a situation arises where you exceed it. Cases that do not involve installs include corp effects that trash MU granting hardware like Mem chips or consoles and cloud breakers popping back to taking up MUs after the link drops below 2. Both a reduction of link and MU can also come about by using Aesops.
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Jeremy Larner
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susuexp wrote:
taggedjc wrote:
"This, for example, is a way for a Runner to trash a program from play (normally, you can't just trash a program whenever you want - so if you want to get rid of your Femme Fatale so you can get it back with Deja Vu or something in order to get her able to bypass a different piece of Ice, you actually have to install more programs than you have MU for so you can trash her).


Incorrect. You may trash a program whenever you install a program. If the new program leads to the MU limit to be exceeded then you must trash a program.

The relevant rules text (p. 15):
"If the MU costs of the Runner’s installed programs ever exceed his available MU, he must trash his installed programs until he is no longer exceeding his available MU.

The Runner can choose to trash any number of his installed programs at the beginning of an install program action."

So you declare an install action. You then trash any program you want and install a new one. If the new program leads to memory requirements not being met, you must trash at the end of the install action (i.e. if you have 4MU and programs worth 4 MU are installed and you want to install a 1 MU program you may trash something before you place the new program or afterwards, in case of the latter you can opt for the program you just installed).

This is different for PW, because installing things off workshop is not an install action - you have to trash programs until you are within your MU limits after installing from workshop, but you can not trash programs using the "may choose" rule above. This is mostly relevant for things like IMP - you´ve got an empty IMP as your sole program. You can trash IMP as part of an install of say a datasucker and play retrieval run (a decent play for Noise in quite a few cases). But if that datasucker was on a PW at the beginning of your turn and had its counter removed, it would get installed and you would not be able to use this to trash the IMP.

It´s also worth noting that you trash programs to get within memory limits as soon as a situation arises where you exceed it. Cases that do not involve installs include corp effects that trash MU granting hardware like Mem chips or consoles and cloud breakers popping back to taking up MUs after the link drops below 2. Both a reduction of link and MU can also come about by using Aesops.


I don't think this is right at all. Can you give sources for the rules you are quoting? As far as I know:

Whenever you install a program (either using the base click: install a program action or through an effect like Personal Workshop or Retrieval Run) you may trash any number of programs at the start of the install effect. If you don't have sufficient memory to install the relevant program, you must trash programs until you have sufficient MU. You many never trash programs at the end of an install effect, only at the start. This means it is never legal to install a program and immediately trash it due to MU requirements.
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Simon Gunkel
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Jadiel wrote:
I don't think this is right at all. Can you give sources for the rules you are quoting?


I did give the source for the quoted rules section.

Jadiel wrote:
Whenever you install a program (either using the base click: install a program action or through an effect like Personal Workshop or Retrieval Run) you may trash any number of programs at the start of the install effect.[/quote]

The rules only mention install actions and while Scavenge has an FAQ specifically stating that the install is an install action and allows programs to be trashed, the same does not hold for other install effects. One could make an easier case expanding this to events that install like modded, a somewhat harder case for using this as precendent for paid ability installs and an even harder case for automatic installs.

[q="Jadiel"]If you don't have sufficient memory to install the relevant program, you must trash programs until you have sufficient MU. You many never trash programs at the end of an install effect, only at the start. This means it is never legal to install a program and immediately trash it due to MU requirements.


You may trash programs at the start of an install action. You must trash programs whenever you exceed your MU allowance.
The FAQ adds this unhelpful bit of info:

"Can the Runner install a program if he has no more available memory units?
Yes. The Runner can trash any number of already installed programs before installing a new one (and must if there is not enough space for the new program). So if the Runner has no free MU, he can initiate an install action, trash any number of programs to free up MU, and then install the new program."

This is somewhat conflicting. It first says "yes". Then it notes that the runner may trash before installing. The part in parentheses suggests the answer is no - though the rules do mandate trashing at the time the MU is exceeded.

I couldn't see a good reason to install a program and trash it as part of the same install action, apart from Noise and I guess that would be handled in the same way a Parasite without a target dropping off PW is handled. Noise triggers at the end of the install and checks for a Virus program that has entered the play during the install (it´d be worth noting that using the pre-install trash here would mean that "you have to trash programs to make space" happens before "parasite has no target" - if you had filled your MU and a parasite on PW had to get the final counter removed, you´d then have to trash something and after that, given no unrezzed ICE parasite would also get trashed...). Play a program, exceed MUs, trash the installed program -> no new program is in play, no Noise trigger.
I can see an issue with PW, if you had a datasucker with 2 Virus counters in play and another datasucker got off workshop (again the usual all MU used situation) and you wanted to keep your counters.

There are no issues with programs with a [trash]:effect, because you son't have a paid ability slot in the middle of an install. I guess there could be a timing structure of a program install...

1. declare install
2.1 may trash any installed programs
2.2 check MU excluding the program to be installed (trash if neccessary) [in case we get programs that supply link or MU]
3.1 pay costs
3.2 assign hosts (Djinn, Dinosaurus, Scheherzade)
3.3 check MU including the program to be installed (trash if neccessary)
4. installation triggers occur (Noise, Scheherzade)

Is what I'd argue based on the Rulebook and FAQ.
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Jeremy Larner
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susuexp wrote:
The rules only mention install actions and while Scavenge has an FAQ specifically stating that the install is an install action and allows programs to be trashed, the same does not hold for other install effects. One could make an easier case expanding this to events that install like modded, a somewhat harder case for using this as precendent for paid ability installs and an even harder case for automatic installs.


I think you're going beyond what the FAQ says. It clarifies that the install from Scavenge works like any other install, and allows trashing of programs. It doesn't say that other install effects (such as Personal Workshop) don't allow trashing.

susuexp wrote:
"Can the Runner install a program if he has no more available memory units?
Yes. The Runner can trash any number of already installed programs before installing a new one (and must if there is not enough space for the new program). So if the Runner has no free MU, he can initiate an install action, trash any number of programs to free up MU, and then install the new program."

This is somewhat conflicting. It first says "yes". Then it notes that the runner may trash before installing. The part in parentheses suggests the answer is no - though the rules do mandate trashing at the time the MU is exceeded.


This doesn't seem conflicting at all to me. It says that you can install a program when you have no available memory, and to do so you must trash programs if there is insufficient space. It then states a second time that the order is initiate, trash, install. I don't see how you can interpret this to mean that you overinstall, and then trash programs down to your MU limit.

susuexp wrote:
I couldn't see a good reason to install a program and trash it as part of the same install action, apart from Noise and I guess that would be handled in the same way a Parasite without a target dropping off PW is handled. Noise triggers at the end of the install and checks for a Virus program that has entered the play during the install (it´d be worth noting that using the pre-install trash here would mean that "you have to trash programs to make space" happens before "parasite has no target" - if you had filled your MU and a parasite on PW had to get the final counter removed, you´d then have to trash something and after that, given no unrezzed ICE parasite would also get trashed...). Play a program, exceed MUs, trash the installed program -> no new program is in play, no Noise trigger.
I can see an issue with PW, if you had a datasucker with 2 Virus counters in play and another datasucker got off workshop (again the usual all MU used situation) and you wanted to keep your counters.


Noise's ability is precisely the reason this whole thing got brought up eight or so months ago (this is the reason the rules you've quoted above were added to the FAQ). I'm fairly certain the ruling from Lucas was that you can't install and then trash a program in order to mill a card because you have to free up MU before installing a new program.

The Parasite/Personal Workshop interaction is not a problem because the FAQ is clear that Parasite trashed instead of being installed. So the install effect is never initiated, and you are never required (or even have the option) to trash programs when PW's effect resolves.

Noise wouldn't care whether the virus was still in play when his ability resolves. Parasite on a Rototurret will still trigger a mill, even though Parasite trashes Roto as a constant effect, and therefore both cards are already in their respective discard piles when Noise's ability resolves.

I'll go and see if I can dig out Lucas's ruling on this from before, but unless something has changed, I think the rules are still as I outlined in my previous post.
 
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Simon Gunkel
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Parasite on Rototurret wouldn't trash Rototurret prior to 4 in that timing chart, which should be ammended with "card becomes active".

The question with the "you have to trash first" position and PW is whether I do have to trash installed programs, or could opt not to free MU and then the new program gets trashed rather than instelled in the way of a second console.

I do recall Lucas answering that Noise wouldn't activate. But that's the case in both versions. The FAQ to me isn't all that clear. It also suffers from issues with Djinn. If I want to install a program on Djinn and have no free MU, this seems to imply I still have to trash something before I install, then I can host it on Djinn while I install, leaving some free memory. It's rather obviously not the intention of the rules, but the way it looks if you go that route is:
no free MU -> trash something
Pay cost, play card, host on Djinn
The same goes for Omnidrive and Dinosaurus, neither of which supply MU, but both of which host programs, allowing you to circumvet some MU use upon hosting. Since the hosting happens after the time at which you may trash, making the trashing mandatory would not allow them to prevent it from happening.
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Jeremy Larner
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susuexp wrote:
Parasite on Rototurret wouldn't trash Rototurret prior to 4 in that timing chart, which should be ammended with "card becomes active".


Fine, but it would still trash before Noise resolved. Or are you implying that Noise wouldn't trigger because the program was never installed? But if programs aren't installed before 4, how can you check whether they are using too much memory? You also seem to be separating the states of "installed" and "active", which I don't think is correct...

If they haven't actually been installed yet, then I think we're really saying the same thing, except you think that a program which hasn't been installed yet can be trashed to make space, whereas I don't think you can trash something that isn't installed...

susuexp wrote:
I do recall Lucas answering that Noise wouldn't activate. But that's the case in both versions. The FAQ to me isn't all that clear. It also suffers from issues with Djinn. If I want to install a program on Djinn and have no free MU, this seems to imply I still have to trash something before I install, then I can host it on Djinn while I install, leaving some free memory. It's rather obviously not the intention of the rules, but the way it looks if you go that route is:
no free MU -> trash something
Pay cost, play card, host on Djinn
The same goes for Omnidrive and Dinosaurus, neither of which supply MU, but both of which host programs, allowing you to circumvet some MU use upon hosting. Since the hosting happens after the time at which you may trash, making the trashing mandatory would not allow them to prevent it from happening.


Yes, this is a fair point. Basically, I take it that if you install a program and find yourself having too much MU then you have made an illegal install (and if I were judging your match, I would make you redo it legally, or choose not to install if the install is optional). This is not the case with hosting programs on Djinn/hardware, so I don't find it problematic. I don't think the FAQ is saying you must trash programs in this case, because you do have sufficient MU to do what you want to do.

With regards the the Lucas ruling, I'm fairly sure that he said that you couldn't trash a program you've just installed, rather than the Noise's ability didn't trigger, but I still haven't managed to find it yet...

ETA: The Lucas ruling I remembered is this one: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/11168178#11168178
However, it's basically the same as the FAQ entry, so it doesn't really clarify the issue one way or the other...
 
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Simon Gunkel
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Jadiel wrote:
Fine, but it would still trash before Noise resolved. Or are you implying that Noise wouldn't trigger because the program was never installed? But if programs aren't installed before 4, how can you check whether they are using too much memory? You also seem to be separating the states of "installed" and "active", which I don't think is correct...


Yea, it seems like it's getting complicated there.

Jadiel wrote:
If they haven't actually been installed yet, then I think we're really saying the same thing, except you think that a program which hasn't been installed yet can be trashed to make space, whereas I don't think you can trash something that isn't installed...


Maybe a way to resolve this is to take the PW rulings and state that if you try to install something that would take you over your MU allowance and do opt not to trash anything, the install doesn't resolve and the thing is trashed instead. So far the only thing that can force an install is PW, so it's the only reason that would currently happen (well, unless you want to waste a click doing something strange). So rather than trashing the thing you just installed, you trash it instead of installing, if you don´t free MU ahead of time.

I think for the purpose of hosting the FAQ makes things less clear, whereas the rulebook is pretty solid (during the install you never exceed your MU allotment, so nothing gets trashed).
 
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Gregory Pettigrew
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susuexp wrote:
The FAQ adds this unhelpful bit of info:

"Can the Runner install a program if he has no more available memory units?
Yes. The Runner can trash any number of already installed programs before installing a new one (and must if there is not enough space for the new program). So if the Runner has no free MU, he can initiate an install action, trash any number of programs to free up MU, and then install the new program."

This is somewhat conflicting. It first says "yes". Then it notes that the runner may trash before installing. The part in parentheses suggests the answer is no - though the rules do mandate trashing at the time the MU is exceeded.


It's because the answer is neither "No" nor "Yes", but is "Yes, but"/"No, unless".

The Runner can choose to Install a Program with insufficient available MU. The method to do so is to Trash Installed Programs first as part of the Installation.
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