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Expedition: Famous Explorers» Forums » Rules

Subject: Loops ?? and claiming destinations. rss

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Gordon Watson
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A couple of questions:-

Loops

The rule book could really do with having a little more detail in regarding loops and some more complex examples. The creation of a simple single loop in an expedition presents no problems, but what exactly constitutes the 'loop' when the situation is more complex needs a little clarification. E.g. 1


E.g. 2


What constitutes the loop in the above examples?

A couple more examples added after some of the responses below.

E.g. 3

In this case if (can) a ticket be used to remove the arrow at 'X'? If so which is the loop you can then branch off? Or, are you again creating two loops?

E.g. 4

This e.g., is obviously not to scale but represents if an expedition goes round the world and connects to a wrap around 'red' half dot it has already visited. I am assuming that this is a loop. There may be difficulties with this as if there is already a loop on the expedition somewhere on the circumnavigation line is that effectively creating 2 loops again and therefore not allowed.

Claiming Cards

Under the new advanced/variant rule (1) for claiming destination cards - can you still score an Expedition card if it is in your hand when another player moves an expedition to it?

The restriction of one card claimed per turn relates only to Expedition cards you could have claimed previously but didn't?

And just to be clear, you can claim any number of Expedition cards if you travel to them during your turn?

Thanks.
 
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Here's how I would play it.

Example 1. I would say this an illegal placement of arrow X. Two loops cannot be created on the same Expedition during a single player’s turn.

Example 2. There is only one new loop created with the placement of arrow X, the lower loop, which is the one you must branch off from. The upper loop was created on a previous placement.

On another note, I do find the language for the loops a bit ambiguous. The rules say when a loop is completed, a new arrow must be placed to branch off the loop. I take this to mean away from the loop rather than placing inside the loop. You can run into problems of illegal placement as in Example 1 if you place inside of a loop. I also visualize a loop as an area holding water. If I were to fill the area of the loop with water, where would the edges of the "lake" be? That is the loop you are looking for.

Questions regarding cards:
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Yes (or an other players turn).
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JASON MAXWELL
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Kevin is correct. The rules state that two loops cannot be created on the same Expedition during the same turn. Placing X would create two loops simultaneously (in example 1). In Example 2 the bottom loop is the valid loop since it was just created.

Previous Expedition rulesets never broached the subject of what happens if an arrow is placed inside a loop. We always interpreted the language to mean you had to face the arrow away from the loop, so this issue never came up. Since this is causing problems, I would houserule that players cannot place an arrow inside a loop because you will find yourself in a situation where the arrow cannot go any further, ending that Expedition.
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Gordon Watson
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I like the definition of defining a loop as 'an area holding water' - I think that helps describing what the loop will be in most cases. Not sure if it holds/works for e.g. 4 that I added above.

OK so you you can't add an arrow inside a loop - it doesn't actually specify this in the rules but it does simplify a lot of instances where a problem can emerge. Not sure how restrictive that may be in being able to reach some destinations but will play that way for now.

Also interested in the response for the added 'e.g. 3' above.

The claiming cards answers all make sense.

Thanks again.




 
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Example 3:
I would say this falls under the "cannot make more than one loop in a turn for the same expedition" rule. By removing the X arrow, you would have two loops, therefore you cannot remove this arrow.

Example 4:
Wow. This is something I've never considered and is difficult for my spatial limited skills to grasp. I think you are correct though, it meets the criteria for a loop as there is no longer a definitive arrow head that represents the current end of the expedition. I would add an arrow branching off the "loop" to continue the expedition.
 
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JASON MAXWELL
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Wolgang, to my knowledge, never covered all these contingencies with his rules. In that case you will need to houserule. Eventually we may have to create a faq.

For 3, I would say that the last loop created before that arrow was laid and then picked up would be the valid loop. If players don't remember which loop that was, then you could use either loop.

For 4, I would say this is not a loop at all. That is the way it was always intuitively played by all players I played with.
 
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Gordon Watson
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I think an official FAQ is needed for the various loop cases.

In the case of example 4 above if this is not a loop then it breaks the overall rule of a loop being created when there is no free/leading arrow head. Stating that doesn't apply if on the half/red connectors is insufficient as the same problem can exist mid-board :-



I think example 3 also needs an 'official' ruling - I have no objection to 'house ruling' but there ought to be a baseline from which to house rule from.
 
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JASON MAXWELL
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Yes I see. In that case we may have to rule that a loop is formed.

I'll work on a FAQ and try to get Mr. Kramer's input. Might post that soon.

If you can come up with any other possible Loop problems, please let me know and I'll include those. Thanks.

Jason
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Franz Kafka
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I'm not sure where the rule interpretation came from, but I was taught this game consistent with the following thread in the Expedition forum:
Loops/Bows

"Following the arrows along the shortest possible path" gives a unique answer for what makes up "the loop" in examples 1 & 2, but doesn't really help on example 3.
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Joe Masinter
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I figure you ought to be able to create a loop, and add the branching arrow inside that loop, as long as you don't break the "only 1 loop per turn" rule. Consider if an expedition makes a large circle, with many spaces inside. I don't see why it should be prevented from entering any space within that circle.
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Peter Hendee
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joeeoj010 wrote:
I figure you ought to be able to create a loop, and add the branching arrow inside that loop, as long as you don't break the "only 1 loop per turn" rule. Consider if an expedition makes a large circle, with many spaces inside. I don't see why it should be prevented from entering any space within that circle.


I agree.
I always understood the rule prohibiting two loops on the same expedition during a single player's turn to be intended to stop one player from playing off a loop to reach a destination then playing a ticket to pick up the last arrow and getting the right to play off the same loop again. Too powerful. I don't believe the rule is intended to prevent one play that happens to create multiple loops.

But we play that you can play off any loop you created, not just the smallest loop. So what do I know?
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JASON MAXWELL
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I have an official response from Wolfgang. These questions have been answered in German editions of the game, but I have not been able to find detailed explanations of loops in any English translations.

I'll put something together soon and post a FAQ on loops. It should clear up all questions.
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Brad Hurst
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In example 1 the real problem is that the first move inside the loop was not illegal, it s the subsequent move added to the and of the expedition that created the two loops that became illegal, however, there is no choice of placement at that point. I just play that if there is no other legal placement, you do it and just play off either loop formed.
 
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Gordon Watson
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tarheel wrote:
In example 1 the real problem is that the first move inside the loop was not illegal, it s the subsequent move added to the and of the expedition that created the two loops that became illegal, however, there is no choice of placement at that point. I just play that if there is no other legal placement, you do it and just play off either loop formed.


There is nothing in the existing rules that prohibits playing inside a loop. You could also make a case for the arrow at 'X' in example 1 only creating one loop - or rather one additional loop as there is already one loop there to start with and you are just splitting it.
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I didnt say it was illegal. I said the first move, INSIDE THE LOOP, WASNT illegal. I said that the second move inside the loop, makin the double loop was the issue.
 
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Gordon Watson
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Sorry, I missed the double negative. The second part of my statement still may apply though - i.e. when you split the loop you are only making one additional loop.
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domus_ludorum wrote:
Sorry, I missed the double negative. The second part of my statement still may apply though - i.e. when you split the loop you are only making one additional loop.


Thats where I'm confused then.

When you split the loop, are you not creating two loops? If not, which of the two sides of the split loop is considered the 'new' loop, the left side or the right side?
 
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Gordon Watson
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tarheel wrote:
domus_ludorum wrote:
Sorry, I missed the double negative. The second part of my statement still may apply though - i.e. when you split the loop you are only making one additional loop.


Thats where I'm confused then.

When you split the loop, are you not creating two loops? If not, which of the two sides of the split loop is considered the 'new' loop, the left side or the right side?


That's one of the questions that an FAQ needs to resolve - or rule that you cannot play inside a loop - or that you can't split a loop.

When we played the game we house ruled that you could play inside a loop and that you could go on and split a loop - where you did so you then had to place a new arrow off the shortest (in terms of bounding arrows) of the created split loops, and if they were equally short the player could choose.
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JASON MAXWELL
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I've prepared the FAQ. Wolfgang answered my questions in detail. The FAQ is being edited and will be submitted as a word file this week.

I'll answer here in summary.

1. The official rule regarding loops, is that you must play directly off of the loop and you cannot play off just anywhere on the same Expedition. I know some people play this way and it is not the way we instruct you to play in our manual, but I thought I would mention here since I've seen it mentioned a couple times.

2. YES. You may place an arrow inside a loop.

3. If 2 loops are created at the same time, which is legal despite the 2 loop rule, the loop you play off of is the loop that is formed first by retracing the path of the arrows. Basically you retrace your path and play off THAT loop, not the other loop. This may require the use of player memory.

4. Connecting two half dots of the same dot at the edges of the board is a loop.

I would also add - and this is my own extraction from Mr. Kramer's comments - that if there is ever any doubt over which loop you should place an arrow off of, then use the smallest loop.

Thanks for all your questions and help clearing this up. To my knowledge there has been no official, detailed English instructions regarding loops, not that I could find. - Jason
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