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One Night Ultimate Werewolf» Forums » Rules

Subject: The necessity of Troublemaker and thus Insomniac rss

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steve zhang
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When we play we always take out the Troublemaker and Insomniac roles. Creating chaos for the sake of creating it without benefiting any player in the game is pointless, and no way a good design choice.

Especially if the seer has already known the role of one of the players whose identity are exchanged and he/she or the other exchanged player is a werewolf, the current villager would immediately point out the other party is a werewolf. This has sucked the fun numerous times out of the game in my play group.

I know the new werewolf is still able to make a comeback if he/she is extraordinarily good, but that particular player would never realise he is the new bad guy before the old werewolf figures out what is going on, and usually when that happens it is rather demoralising for the player and he/she would not even bother to defend themselves.

Maybe I'm missing something there so if I do please help me out. Thank you.
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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If you werewolves are coming clean as soon as someone has claimed to have swapped them, then the villagers will start winning games constantly by falsely claiming Troublemaker, or claiming to have swapped people that they actually did not.

Once this strategy emerges, werewolves will stop coming clean so easily just by the Troublemaker claiming. Once this starts happening, it reins in the power of even a legitimate Troublemaker.

The power of this role is not being able to physically swap cards, but just in the fact that anybody can claim that a switch happened.

Frankly, the game isn't that interesting without the swapping roles, and often becomes a guessing game where you just have to pick one of several people who haven't been checked, or where you have to pick one of two people who's stories contradict each other. When you include the swapping roles and players adapt their play accordingly, the game is a lot more interesting.
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Ben
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MasterDinadan wrote:
When you include the swapping roles and players adapt their play accordingly, the game is a lot more interesting.

Agree. I almost never play without the Troublemaker or Drunk.
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Cameron McKenzie
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Another scenario is that Wolf A can claim to be Troublemaker and say he swapped Wolf B and a Villager. Wolf B then "comes clean" in order to paint Villager as a wolf. If the story is convincing, then the Villager gets killed.

If wolves do this consistently, then the group think evolves to the point where anyone claiming to be a Troublemaker might be a wolf. This shift in strategy also nerfs the legitimate Troublemaker a lot.


Basically, the Troublemaker is only overpowered if the Villagers are always honest and if the Werewolves can't come up with a better lie than "I'm a regular villager."
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John Van Wagoner
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where did you all get this game? (in order to be posting on it?)...thanks
 
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steve zhang
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Thanks for all the replies. I do get those points that have been mentioned. I guess the way how Troublemaker works just does not click with us somehow. My main gripe against the role is how it works together with the Seer, which, when it happens, can be quite game-breaking for us.

John_VW wrote:
where did you all get this game? (in order to be posting on it?)...thanks


I admit we only use my existing standard Werewolf set to play the game.
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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Sometimes the game is a little broken depending on what happens at night. Though I am curious about what interaction with the seer you are referring to. What does the seer need to see in order for the troublemaker to be especially problematic?

Regarding the occasional brokenness of the game, that is because the game is very random and takes a lot of risks. This is important in a five minute game. Ideally, you will play several games and come away with a few outrageous scenarios what will you will talk about and remember for a while. But to have those fun scenarios, you have to be willing to occasionally have a game that flops (the flops are always over pretty quick though, so no worries)

If the game gave a more consistent experience, it wouldn't be entertaining for very long.
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Clyde W
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QueenOfAll wrote:
Thanks for all the replies. I do get those points that have been mentioned. I guess the way how Troublemaker works just does not click with us somehow. My main gripe against the role is how it works together with the Seer, which, when it happens, can be quite game-breaking for us.

John_VW wrote:
where did you all get this game? (in order to be posting on it?)...thanks


I admit we only use my existing standard Werewolf set to play the game.
There's a good solution to this: take out the seer. Troublemaker is far more fun to play with! Be sure to add in Drunk though! It helps wolves counteract Troublemaker.
 
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Clyde W
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John_VW wrote:
where did you all get this game? (in order to be posting on it?)...thanks
You can join us here! ONUW PBF #3 - Werewolves win!
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Ben
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I'm also interested in the interaction with the Seer that you're experiencing. I think the Troublemaker can be a good defense against honest Seers.

Imagine the following:
Player A says, "I was the Seer, and I saw that Player B was a werewolf."
Player C says, "I was the Troublemaker and I swapped Player B with Player D, so Player D is now a wolf."
Player D says, "No, I was the Troublemaker and I swapped Player A and player B, so Player A is now a wolf."

So even if we believe what Player A saw, we don't have any idea who to kill.

Without the Troublemaker, Player B doesn't have many defenses if Player A is believable. No one will admit to Robbing him because that would make them a wolf. And if there are no other roles that swap cards, all Player B can do is deny Player A's claim. That's not particularly interesting to me.
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Mc Jarvis
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chally wrote:

Without the Troublemaker, Player B doesn't have many defenses if Player A is believable. No one will admit to Robbing him because that would make them a wolf. And if there are no other roles that swap cards, all Player B can do is deny Player A's claim. That's not particularly interesting to me.


I suppose the werewolf could claim Robber, since that would remove his werewolf status. He could also claim to be the seer, or claim an unclaimed role and say that clearly the accuser is a werewolf and not the Seer.

Which lie people choose isn't really relevant except that it is consistent with as much of the logic chain as possible. It all boils down to conflicting testimonies and either trusting in your instincts on who to believe, or flipping a coin. Thus Werewolf is the perfect game of random chance disguised in a veil of actual accomplishment. [Which is also why I find it to be a tearfully boring game and never engage when forced to play]
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steve zhang
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chally wrote:
I'm also interested in the interaction with the Seer that you're experiencing. I think the Troublemaker can be a good defense against honest Seers.

Imagine the following:
Player A says, "I was the Seer, and I saw that Player B was a werewolf."
Player C says, "I was the Troublemaker and I swapped Player B with Player D, so Player D is now a wolf."
Player D says, "No, I was the Troublemaker and I swapped Player A and player B, so Player A is now a wolf."

So even if we believe what Player A saw, we don't have any idea who to kill.

Without the Troublemaker, Player B doesn't have many defenses if Player A is believable. No one will admit to Robbing him because that would make them a wolf. And if there are no other roles that swap cards, all Player B can do is deny Player A's claim. That's not particularly interesting to me.


My problem is more prominent when the four players are Seer, Troublemaker, 1 Werewolf, and 1 vanilla Villager, instead of 2 Werewolves.

In this case, your conversation between Player C & D would not happen. Let's say the Seer (A) nails the Werewolf (B) and Troublemaker (C) speaks up, the old Werewolf (B) would not wait a second to own up and accuse D to be the Werewolf, and B will always stay ahead of D in this situation because B knows for certain D is a werewolf, but D is still processing all the statements, thus in the split second gives him/herself away by cluelessness and a lag to react.

From A and C's statement to B's accusation could happen in less than 10 seconds. Admittedly we are not professional poker players, but this is what has sucked the fun out of our games. You can say D is still able to make a comeback but I think only the top-notched players can pull it off without feeling demoralised when all the odds are instantly stacked against him. For me myself, I would only be thinking "what the heck just happened and I'm all figured out only out of pure luck?"

But as MasterDinadan pointed out, this is merely a 5 minute game so I should not be too critical about it. We already had our own small group variant of Werewolf so was just testing out this version.
 
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Clyde W
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McJarvis wrote:
chally wrote:

Without the Troublemaker, Player B doesn't have many defenses if Player A is believable. No one will admit to Robbing him because that would make them a wolf. And if there are no other roles that swap cards, all Player B can do is deny Player A's claim. That's not particularly interesting to me.


I suppose the werewolf could claim Robber, since that would remove his werewolf status.
I'm not sure I follow this. How would a wolf claiming Robber remove his wolf status..!?

Quote:
Thus Werewolf is the perfect game of random chance disguised in a veil of actual accomplishment. [Which is also why I find it to be a tearfully boring game and never engage when forced to play]
This is 100% false. If you're flipping coins you're playing wrong. You can get to a 50/50 choice really easily in the game, most of the time. You can win much more often if you choose based on reads and tells. If you don't find those things interesting, then yeah, the game should be avoided. But if trying to catch people out on lies thrills you, then this is one of the best games you can play.
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Clyde W
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QueenOfAll wrote:
chally wrote:
I'm also interested in the interaction with the Seer that you're experiencing. I think the Troublemaker can be a good defense against honest Seers.

Imagine the following:
Player A says, "I was the Seer, and I saw that Player B was a werewolf."
Player C says, "I was the Troublemaker and I swapped Player B with Player D, so Player D is now a wolf."
Player D says, "No, I was the Troublemaker and I swapped Player A and player B, so Player A is now a wolf."

So even if we believe what Player A saw, we don't have any idea who to kill.

Without the Troublemaker, Player B doesn't have many defenses if Player A is believable. No one will admit to Robbing him because that would make them a wolf. And if there are no other roles that swap cards, all Player B can do is deny Player A's claim. That's not particularly interesting to me.


My problem is more prominent when the four players are Seer, Troublemaker, 1 Werewolf, and 1 vanilla Villager, instead of 2 Werewolves.
Sure, but this is why you always play with Drunk and Lone Wolf variant when Troublemaker is in play. Also, if you're playing 3-4 players, I will often play with Tanner and Minion thrown in, which then requires Robber as a defense for Team Good. So that's a great 4p roleset:

Tanner
Wolf
Wolf
Minion
Troublemaker
Robber
Drunk

This produces paranoia to the extreme. Trust me. Try it out and watch the sparks fly.
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Ben
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QueenOfAll wrote:
In this case, your conversation between Player C & D would not happen. Let's say the Seer (A) nails the Werewolf (B) and Troublemaker (C) speaks up, the old Werewolf (B) would not wait a second to own up and accuse D to be the Werewolf, and B will always stay ahead of D in this situation because B knows for certain D is a werewolf, but D is still processing all the statements, thus in the split second gives him/herself away by cluelessness and a lag to react.


I see what you're saying, but I think your group may need to develop more of a metagame around these events. For example, you imagine that B will always speak up once someone declares the troublemaker, but then B will always lose whenever someone lies about being the troublemaker. That seems like very risky play. Example:

A: "I was the Seer, and B is a Wolf!"
B: "No, I was the Seer and A is the real Wolf!"
C: "I was the Troublemaker, and I switched B with D, so D is the Wolf!"
B: "A was right, I was the Wolf! But now let's kill D!"
C: "I lied. I didn't switch anyone. B just admitted he is still the Wolf! Kill him!"
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Mc Jarvis
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clydeiii wrote:

Quote:
Which lie people choose isn't really relevant except that it is consistent with as much of the logic chain as possible. It all boils down to conflicting testimonies and either trusting in your instincts on who to believe, or flipping a coin. Thus Werewolf is the perfect game of random chance disguised in a veil of actual accomplishment. [Which is also why I find it to be a tearfully boring game and never engage when forced to play]
This is 100% false. If you're flipping coins you're playing wrong. You can get to a 50/50 choice really easily in the game, most of the time. You can win much more often if you choose based on reads and tells. If you don't find those things interesting, then yeah, the game should be avoided. But if trying to catch people out on lies thrills you, then this is one of the best games you can play.


You missed a key part of my post, which is what you're talking about.

Also, note that winning 50% of the time shouldn't be the goal: which side you are on will impact this, as well as the character cards in the game. Even by random chance in a basic game with 4 people on one side and 2 people on the other you'll win at a different ratio than 50% of the time, depending on the likelihood of werewolves winning with the given role-set in such a scenario.
 
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QueenOfAll wrote:
chally wrote:
I'm also interested in the interaction with the Seer that you're experiencing. I think the Troublemaker can be a good defense against honest Seers.

Imagine the following:
Player A says, "I was the Seer, and I saw that Player B was a werewolf."
Player C says, "I was the Troublemaker and I swapped Player B with Player D, so Player D is now a wolf."
Player D says, "No, I was the Troublemaker and I swapped Player A and player B, so Player A is now a wolf."

So even if we believe what Player A saw, we don't have any idea who to kill.

Without the Troublemaker, Player B doesn't have many defenses if Player A is believable. No one will admit to Robbing him because that would make them a wolf. And if there are no other roles that swap cards, all Player B can do is deny Player A's claim. That's not particularly interesting to me.


My problem is more prominent when the four players are Seer, Troublemaker, 1 Werewolf, and 1 vanilla Villager, instead of 2 Werewolves.

In this case, your conversation between Player C & D would not happen. Let's say the Seer (A) nails the Werewolf (B) and Troublemaker (C) speaks up, the old Werewolf (B) would not wait a second to own up and accuse D to be the Werewolf, and B will always stay ahead of D in this situation because B knows for certain D is a werewolf, but D is still processing all the statements, thus in the split second gives him/herself away by cluelessness and a lag to react.


Player D might be able to convince Player A that Player B is lying in order to cover up his wolf partner C. Of course, player D might even be right and not even know it!

Anyway, Clyde's point is right - adding drunk is an especially good step as it creates (another) defense you can use against being swapped to wolf. Insomniac is decent too, because you can claim to know that the troublemaker is lying because you weren't swapped. And, generally speaking, Minion and Tanner are great additions if the wolves aren't winning much, because they introduce characters that will deliberately try to deceive the village but aren't afraid to get caught in the act. As a result, wolves can also be bolder about their deception, since they won't necessarily get killed even if their deception is exposed.
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Clyde W
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McJarvis wrote:
clydeiii wrote:

Quote:
Which lie people choose isn't really relevant except that it is consistent with as much of the logic chain as possible. It all boils down to conflicting testimonies and either trusting in your instincts on who to believe, or flipping a coin. Thus Werewolf is the perfect game of random chance disguised in a veil of actual accomplishment. [Which is also why I find it to be a tearfully boring game and never engage when forced to play]
This is 100% false. If you're flipping coins you're playing wrong. You can get to a 50/50 choice really easily in the game, most of the time. You can win much more often if you choose based on reads and tells. If you don't find those things interesting, then yeah, the game should be avoided. But if trying to catch people out on lies thrills you, then this is one of the best games you can play.


You missed a key part of my post, which is what you're talking about.
I suppose my point is that it's totally unfair and 100% false to call Werewolf a game of no accomplishment. If you enjoy catching others lying, and you can do it well, then you're definitely accomplishing something. This is no different to me than playing a puzzly euro with extreme skill. It's just a different type of skill.
 
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Clyde W
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McJarvis wrote:
Also, note that winning 50% of the time shouldn't be the goal.
This is mostly irrelevant to the OP, but as an aside, I agree with this. I never said it was. I said that often you can get down to a 50/50 chance on who to vote for (assuming you're acting the part of a Villager wanting to win). There's typically enough in-game information that you can get down to that choice. And then you rely on intuition, experience, and tells to get you to the right solution.
 
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Mc Jarvis
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clydeiii wrote:
This is no different to me than playing a puzzly euro with extreme skill. It's just a different type of skill.


Sure, it's the same kind of skill that Dixit or Say Anything has. It's just not a particularly interesting one. All the meaning you assign in your decisions could just as easily be a combination of random chance, a game structure which makes you win a majority of the time anyway, and some players simply not following the logic chains: and I would conjecture it would be very difficult to tell the difference between skill and the factors I listed in the real world.
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McJarvis wrote:
clydeiii wrote:
This is no different to me than playing a puzzly euro with extreme skill. It's just a different type of skill.


Sure, it's the same kind of skill that Dixit or Say Anything has. It's just not a particularly interesting one. All the meaning you assign in your decisions could just as easily be a combination of random chance, a game structure which makes you win a majority of the time anyway, and some players simply not following the logic chains: and I would conjecture it would be very difficult to tell the difference between skill and the factors I listed in the real world.
You're right. The skill set demanded in One Night Ultimate Werewolf is not interesting, to you. To you, it cannot be differentiated from randomness.

I would imagine, there are quite a few One Night Ultimate Werewolf players that consistently win a lot more games then they lose. Is it possible that it's just dumb luck, sure. Is it possible that they are just really good at it? I would imagine that is more likely.

I also bet that they feel that they are "good" at the game, and that it is interesting. But Human nature as it is, we tend to call things we don't understand, or are not good at, "uninteresting".

Of course, trying to convince others that they are wasting their time playing uninteresting games seems to hold a lot of interest to you...
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steve zhang
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clydeiii wrote:
Sure, but this is why you always play with Drunk and Lone Wolf variant when Troublemaker is in play. Also, if you're playing 3-4 players, I will often play with Tanner and Minion thrown in, which then requires Robber as a defense for Team Good. So that's a great 4p roleset:

Tanner
Wolf
Wolf
Minion
Troublemaker
Robber
Drunk

This produces paranoia to the extreme. Trust me. Try it out and watch the sparks fly.


This seems like an chaotically awesome setup. Sure will try out next time!

chally wrote:
QueenOfAll wrote:
In this case, your conversation between Player C & D would not happen. Let's say the Seer (A) nails the Werewolf (B) and Troublemaker (C) speaks up, the old Werewolf (B) would not wait a second to own up and accuse D to be the Werewolf, and B will always stay ahead of D in this situation because B knows for certain D is a werewolf, but D is still processing all the statements, thus in the split second gives him/herself away by cluelessness and a lag to react.


I see what you're saying, but I think your group may need to develop more of a metagame around these events. For example, you imagine that B will always speak up once someone declares the troublemaker, but then B will always lose whenever someone lies about being the troublemaker. That seems like very risky play. Example:

A: "I was the Seer, and B is a Wolf!"
B: "No, I was the Seer and A is the real Wolf!"
C: "I was the Troublemaker, and I switched B with D, so D is the Wolf!"
B: "A was right, I was the Wolf! But now let's kill D!"
C: "I lied. I didn't switch anyone. B just admitted he is still the Wolf! Kill him!"


Thanks Ben for your thorough explanation. I guess we were all too caught up in our own metagame that we did not manage to think out of the box and see this situation could happen.
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I think there is a actually a wide range of skill in this game and the skill comes from reading people as well as understanding and manipulating the meta game. The metagame here evolves faster than any other game I've seen, which is its chief strength.

Also concerning the OP, I agree with the previous poster who said your groups meta needs to evolve. It doesn't seem like you have much lying going on. Here's some simple things to try and see how they work out for you:

-As a good guy, try immediately lying about your role. Last game I played, I immediately said I was the troublemaker and switched two people. The real troublemaker called me out but I stuck to my guns. The wolves were confused as hell. I relented a minute later admitting I was just a villager and I wanted to see who would call me out because I knew I could trust them to be good. This is risky but lying elicits reactions. Reactions are information. You have to alter your lies, I can't do the same exact thing next time with this group because they may think I'm now a wolf trying to cover myself. My specific lie works twice as good if you're a mayor or robber and can prove you actually are good (someone else corroborates your mayor hood and you prove you we're robber by saying what the role you stole was).

-with the Seer it's MUCH better to look at two middle cards. Why? Because you lie and say you are one of the middle cards to deceive people. If you see a troublemaker claim to be the troublemaker right away and no one will call you out. OR wait and see if anyone tries to lie and claim a role in the middle of the table. Of course, you have to evolve with the meta and can't always do this.

-if you have two mayors pretend to be the seer and say you looked at the other mayors card, but say you saw he was the troublemaker and maybe give him a wink. Hopefully he lies and says he switched two peoples cards. Real troublemaker or seer could call you out and you could lose trust but it depends on your meta and how people play. If I'm seer I tend to wait till late game sometimes to reveal what I know, so that it allows Wolves to make mistakes.

Try different lies and see what reactions you get is really the meat of my suggestion. Manipulate your meta, if everyone tells the truth then it should be as easy as taking candy from a baby.
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charlest wrote:
-if you have two mayors pretend to be the seer and say you looked at the other mayors card, but say you saw he was the troublemaker and maybe give him a wink. Hopefully he lies and says he switched two peoples cards. Real troublemaker or seer could call you out and you could lose trust but it depends on your meta and how people play. If I'm seer I tend to wait till late game sometimes to reveal what I know, so that it allows Wolves to make mistakes.
You mean mason, but yes, I've done this as mason AND IT WORKS. So good.
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Cameron McKenzie
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I think you mean masons and not mayors

But I certainly agree.

Hunter is another guy who can definitely get away with outrageous lies. Even if you get yourself killed doing it, you haven't lost the game.
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