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Subject: Expansion Status - "DECEPTION" rss

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Robert K Gabhart
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I'll keep things updated on this thread for those of you that want to know how things are going with the Deception expansion.

Current status is as follows:
- Printer details and cost estimates are in
- Artist costs are in (timeline still TBD)
- BETA testing is underway (4 distinct groups are actively beta-testing and providing feedback on card cost, strengths, card text, etc.)
- Two local conventions will be featuring the BETA of Deception this month, one in Virginia and another in Texas
- Kickstarter planning will start soon

Thanks so much for your support!
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Kevin Seachrist
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Excellent news! T'is quite a good game and well worth expanding.
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Byron Grimes
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Gotta dig for that new stuff. Thanks for continuing the push.
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T. Fred
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Where can I find out more about this expansion? I'm ready to give you my money!
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Jo Bartok
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This game badly needs tiny variations, dominion like; replacements rather than additions. Leaders, buildings etc really is a lot - but - it is almost always the same good gane!

Are you going to do it with rio grande?
Same card frame? Availability in Germany? Check heidelberger spieleverlag?

J
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Evan Duly
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Would this be the place to post some new card ideas my play group came up with over several plays?

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Evan Duly
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ionas wrote:
This game badly needs tiny variations, dominion like; replacements rather than additions. Leaders, buildings etc really is a lot - but - it is almost always the same good game!

J


Agree with this for sure!

Please don't alter in a big way the gameplay! The game is awesome and mainly needs just more cards and options!
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Robert K Gabhart
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ionas wrote:
This game badly needs tiny variations, dominion like; replacements rather than additions. Leaders, buildings etc really is a lot - but - it is almost always the same good gane!

Are you going to do it with rio grande?
Same card frame? Availability in Germany? Check heidelberger spieleverlag?

J


The expansion will not be with Rio Grande.

The card back, frame, and art elements will be consistent.

I'm not sure what the international distribution will be like, but we will certainly support international shipping.
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Jo Bartok
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Rio Grande took ages to get out the main game and now they drop it again? Sad .

Its a good game and it would simply require a bit of publicity. But I see that its not fantasy (which I like as many do) neither zombie (which I consider the worst crap, but many do like it ;p), so its hard to get under some belts.
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Joe F.
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ionas wrote:


Its a good game and it would simply require a bit of publicity. But I see that its not fantasy (which I like as many do) neither zombie (which I consider the worst crap, but many do like it ;p), so its hard to get under some belts.


Those are the reasons I like Arctic Scavengers. Sick of Fantasy stuff and Zombie stuff! Either way, can't wait for the Kickstarter for this expansion.
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Calvin Le Huray
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Recently got this game and it has gone over so well with my gaming group. Love this game looking toward to any expansions.
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Dudeman Blarg
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nvm: I picked up a copy anyhow. I guess I couldn't wait lol. I look forward to the kickstarter.

I've heard the Kickstarter will have tiers where you get the base game + expansion. Is the base game different from the Rio Grande one (I'm asking this since Rio Grande is not doing the expansion)? I know the kickstarter is not up yet, but information that has been given has given me pause. Basically, would I miss out on anything if I get the base game now?
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Robert K Gabhart
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The current thinking is that the expansion will be compatible with the Rio base.
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Jo Bartok
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My GF loves this game, so please, do it!
^ this is a real argument ;-)

Also I'd like to see some more leaders and some leader's draft mechanics ban, pick stuff, etc... or point systems (slightly weaker leaders giving people points)

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Evan Duly
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Any updates on this expansion? Kickstarter dates or anything?

I'm waiting impatiently

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Jo Bartok
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Same. Bring it on. Just the same quality and variation on cards
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Robert K Gabhart
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Hey there AS fans! I'd like to thank you all for your patience and interest. I have good news and I have bad news.

Good news: The expansion play-testing is complete and I feel confident about the quality, balance, and replayability of the cards.

Bad news: Due to constraints placed by Rio Grande, I am unsure that printing the expansion is economically viable.


Kickstarter number crunching

Allow me to lay all of my cards on the table (pun intended)...

I am dealing with the following rounded figures for a print run of 1500 expansion units:
$18,000 - Artwork
$14,000 - Printing
$11,000 - Domestic shipping
$ 7,000 - Rio cut
$ 5,000 - Kick Starter fee
$ 3,000 - Freight from Germany

~$60,000

This means we would need to run KS as follows:
- Goal of $60,000
- Minimum pledge of $40/game (covers the expansion and a box that organizes RGG version AND new KS set)

Project Problems
- There is zero profit for me built into this model
- The project won't fund unless we move 1500 units (yes, I realize that with some spiffy rewards we could squeeze some additional cash out, but we still need to move the majority of the 1500 units)
- We can probably count on moving about half of the units to the current fanbase, which means that the other half need to come from new buyers (thanks to KS exposure). These buyers will want to have the base game bundled in. The bundled package would run ~ $70 ($30 for base game, $40 for expansion) and would contain $10.00 worth of money toward KS costs and $20.00 toward arbitrarily inflating the money raised. In other words, every bundle backer makes it look like I am closer to covering my costs than I actually am. Out of the $70, $40 functions normally, $20 covers the costs for me to buy the base game at wholesale and ship it to a backer, and $10 represents new money to help cover project costs.

Alternative - Different Artist
The only viable solution I could come up with is to use a less expensive artist. I was able to get an alternate bid from a talented artist and it would allow me to reduce my costs by around $10,000 (so goal would be $50k and lowest pledge would be $35 for a game). Still no profit in it, but I feel much more confident that I can make those numbers work. I also still have to be careful and limit the number of bundle packages I make available until costs are covered. The trouble is that Rio won't allow me to use another artist. So this is a non-starter.

Options as I see them

I have tried to run the numbers every direction that I can think of, but I can't seem to find a solution that I am really thrilled with pursuing. As it stands, I see the following available options:

1) Throw caution to the wind and run the Kickstarter anyway, eating a few thousand dollars in unrecoverable artist costs (as needed to support the KS project) and hope that it works out.
2) Release the expansion with clip art graphics as a Print-N-Play so that fans have access to the game, albeit at a lower quality.
3) Run a small KS to produce quality artwork for the Print-N-Play (caveat is that the backs won't match and the fronts will have to use alternate symbols since I won't be able to reuse symbols).
4) Apologize to the community, set all of this on the proverbial shelf, and move on to throw my energy behind other in-flight game projects.

I am open to your insight and perspective. Thanks for taking the time to read this whole post.

Kyle Gabhart
Founder and Chief Designer
Driftwood Games
www.driftwoodgames.com

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Scott Everts
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Wow, that really sucks.

To be honest, I think your only viable option is 4. You are going to either take a terrible risk and still end up with no profit, or lose money. Or it won't make the goal. At 60k that seems very unlikely for an expansion. It seems to me that though Rio is "allowing" you to do this, they don't really want you to so they threw road blocks in the way to make sure it wouldn't succeed.

I'm very disappointed but sounds like you might be better off doing another themed game with similar mechanics where you have total creative freedom. Don't shackle yourself to limits like that. Reminds me of some of the deals I've seen in the video game industry!
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Frank Castle
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My heart tells me option 1! But that's also easy for me cause I would buy the expansion only even for 45. Also it's not my neck and wallet on the line... I would be heart broken but understanding if you went with option 4, that's your safest bet. I personally am not a fan of PnP stuff, let alone the idea of different symbols. What if you offered the base game as an add-on for $25/30? Or created a cool board or playmat add-on that you could sell for profit to help cover costs? Please don't give up yet! I am still looking forward to this. Also do you get hit any fees if you set too lofty of a goal say 70 or even just 65k as a goal, and don't meet it?
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Oliver Paul
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Wow, not the way I wanted to start my day. That's terrible news. As people above me have stated, my heart tells me "go for option 1!" I just don't think it will work. 60 thousand for a KS for an expansion is unrealistic, I think. Something big would have to happen for that to work.

I also am not a fan of PnP, so I would never back that kind of project. Perhaps we could send emails to Rio Grande, letting them know about our displeasure?
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Kevin Seachrist
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This is very sad news, and seems like a no-win decision. While I would love to see the expansion, I'm not going to ask a talented designer to drive themselves into debt so I can have it. Robert, I wish you well in your future projects and will certainly watch each one closely as a game purchase. Arctic Scavengers is a classic as is.
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Jo Bartok
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The customer's can't make your decision, but if you ask for comment, maybe there are some questions .

gabhart wrote:
Hey there AS fans! I'd like to thank you all for your patience and interest. I have good news and I have bad news.

Good news: The expansion play-testing is complete and I feel confident about the quality, balance, and replayability of the cards.

Bad news: Due to constraints placed by Rio Grande, I am unsure that printing the expansion is economically viable.


What constrains? Will the expansion be labeled to be by Rio Grande? Is the enforcement around the card backs, the card front frames, the symbols and the name? If any (or all) of those are used, you gotta pay them and use their preferred artist?
gabhart wrote:


Kickstarter number crunching

Allow me to lay all of my cards on the table (pun intended)...

I am dealing with the following rounded figures for a print run of 1500 expansion units:
$18,000 - Artwork
$14,000 - Printing
$11,000 - Domestic shipping
$ 7,000 - Rio cut
$ 5,000 - Kick Starter fee
$ 3,000 - Freight from Germany

How did you plan the shipping stuff. What does Freight from Germany (I am in Germany but wondering) mean? I think for some KS Starlit Citadel is doing the warehousing and shipping. Why should you calculate shipping up front? What about shipping through amazon warehousing (or starlit citadel, or something else)? I have no experience for KS, but does the cost scale with the amount of pledges? Is there an initial up-front cost beyond marketing?
gabhart wrote:


~$60,000

This means we would need to run KS as follows:
- Goal of $60,000
- Minimum pledge of $40/game (covers the expansion and a box that organizes RGG version AND new KS set)

Project Problems
- There is zero profit for me built into this model

This ain't good. Some KS really prints money, and that's not nice either. But you really want to have some benefit for yourself . Some good reason beyond that this is your baby.

gabhart wrote:

- The project won't fund unless we move 1500 units (yes, I realize that with some spiffy rewards we could squeeze some additional cash out, but we still need to move the majority of the 1500 units)

Do you have numbers on how many units were sold by RGG? You will have to figure out yourself, if this is something you can do.

gabhart wrote:


- We can probably count on moving about half of the units to the current fanbase, which means that the other half need to come from new buyers (thanks to KS exposure). These buyers will want to have the base game bundled in. The bundled package would run ~ $70 ($30 for base game, $40 for expansion) and would contain $10.00 worth of money toward KS costs and $20.00 toward arbitrarily inflating the money raised. In other words, every bundle backer makes it look like I am closer to covering my costs than I actually am. Out of the $70, $40 functions normally, $20 covers the costs for me to buy the base game at wholesale and ship it to a backer, and $10 represents new money to help cover project costs.

Alternative - Different Artist
The only viable solution I could come up with is to use a less expensive artist. I was able to get an alternate bid from a talented artist and it would allow me to reduce my costs by around $10,000 (so goal would be $50k and lowest pledge would be $35 for a game). Still no profit in it, but I feel much more confident that I can make those numbers work. I also still have to be careful and limit the number of bundle packages I make available until costs are covered. The trouble is that Rio won't allow me to use another artist. So this is a non-starter.


What are the legal constraints you are under that forces you to use this artist?
I do think though, one of the strength of the current version, is its art.

gabhart wrote:



Options as I see them

I have tried to run the numbers every direction that I can think of, but I can't seem to find a solution that I am really thrilled with pursuing. As it stands, I see the following available options:

1)Throw caution to the wind and run the Kickstarter anyway, eating a few thousand dollars in unrecoverable artist costs (as needed to support the KS project) and hope that it works out.
2) Release the expansion with clip art graphics as a Print-N-Play so that fans have access to the game, albeit at a lower quality.
3) Run a small KS to produce quality artwork for the Print-N-Play (caveat is that the backs won't match and the fronts will have to use alternate symbols since I won't be able to reuse symbols).
4) Apologize to the community, set all of this on the proverbial shelf, and move on to throw my energy behind other in-flight game projects.

I am open to your insight and perspective. Thanks for taking the time to read this whole post.

Kyle Gabhart
Founder and Chief Designer
Driftwood Games
www.driftwoodgames.com



You can always restraint to 2) later before going to 4). I'd not try 3) but leave it to the community to produce art. They can use opaque sleeves and be done with it.

1) doesn't seem to make you happy. But what about these options

A.) Setup a KS using the game already existing as a base. You will be selling through the game and make some profit. If there is enough demand stretch goals will be met to make additions to the game possible.
Setup some cool videos done by some more popular reviewers that don't take much money of you. Add your own interview of you and some core testers explaining the game already there.
In a 2nd interview explain what you want to create "in addition", also let your core testers speak.
State that if certain pledge goals won't be reached you will only be able to sell through the basic game, maybe a t-shirt or something, but nothing more (speak to RGG about that)

Pledge 1 Community Love (they give you money for nothin ;p)
Pledge 2 Game (w/o shipping, but pick-up? (Shipping costs extra via Starlit or Amazon))
Pledge 3 Game signed personally
Pledge 4 Game and any expansions reached through stretch goals
Pledge 5 Game and any expansions reached through stretch goals signed

Stretch 1 Base Game If enough customers buy the base game, it is worth just selling it though and making some bucks
Stretch 2 Base Game covering RGG licensing costs + some goodies: A potion of your expansion (say, new leaders)
Stretch 3 Base Game covering some more expansion stuff
Stretch 4 Base Game covering the whole expansion
Stretch 5 Base Game signed etc with whole expansion

You don't do marketing but your personal one. You have to get RGGs agreement on to use the existing game for promotion. You don't invest much but simply show your prototype of the expansion and gameplay and reviews of the existing game. You quote that the same artist will be used and will use him.



The other option is frankly to redo the game under another name, with the cheaper artist you found and no RGG fees and sell the base game, the hq expansion bits (multiple) and the new expansion as stretch single stretch goals.

The last option is to refrain to P&P clip art, just to get some feedback. I'd keep it black and white though. Very basic. The community "can" produce better stuff if they want to. You will get some feedback if you plan to re-release the whole game later (see above)
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Robert K Gabhart
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ScottE wrote:
Wow, that really sucks.

To be honest, I think your only viable option is 4. You are going to either take a terrible risk and still end up with no profit, or lose money. Or it won't make the goal. At 60k that seems very unlikely for an expansion. It seems to me that though Rio is "allowing" you to do this, they don't really want you to so they threw road blocks in the way to make sure it wouldn't succeed.

I'm very disappointed but sounds like you might be better off doing another themed game with similar mechanics where you have total creative freedom. Don't shackle yourself to limits like that. Reminds me of some of the deals I've seen in the video game industry!


Thanks Scott. You've always been a big supporter of the game.
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Joe F.
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How about making a KS with a higher price for the expansion, like $50 instead of $40? If you do go the KS route, I would recommend a pledge level with a artist/designer signed card or such for a higher level ($75?) people go in for that kind of thing.

Either way, wow really bad news, I was hoping to see more expansions for this but not looking good right now. Thanks for being upfront about the situation
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Wow. Thanks for the information. As much as I want this expansion, I don't see how this KS could work. Of course it would help if RGG didn't need its $7k cut (and as a gesture of goodwill, it could agree to hold off on the $7k cut until the KS project is $7k in the black.) I'm not sure why RGG is being so difficult, I've always been a fan of the company and its leader. I think he is making a mistake here or I just simply don't have all the information.

Ultimately as a fan of the game, I have to say you may have to just move on.
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