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Subject: Relative newcomer - have some specific questions I'd like some help with rss

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Jeff Wright
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Hi All - I've played through four games of M&M now and have a few questions and clarifications I still haven't been able to pin down.

Fishhook and Thread – This mainly concerns moving out of water spaces. According to the rules (page 18) the connected spaces are considered ‘normal adjacent spaces’ and 'any mouse can use their normal movement to move between the spaces'. From reading various threads however, it seems like the accepted ruling is that you still use your entire move to exit the water, but don't need to roll to exit. To me it seems like both limitations of moving out of a water space would be ignored, but would like some additional insight on this.

Disguise – Do you ignore rats placed by special chapter/tile setup rules, or ONLY by an encounter card? I know that you do not ignore rats placed by a surge.

Collin’s Ability (Battle leader)– Does this 'proc' any time cards are placed on the initiative track (e.g. from a surge) or only when determining initiative at the start of an encounter? The language of the cards appears to favor the former.

Mystic attack abilities – Each of these abilities states that the target or targets are “Attacked by this mouse with a ranged attack”, so it seems logical to assume that the line of sight rules apply to each ability. I know Jerry has ruled otherwise, but would appreciate some insight as to why. Is it because the initial target selection text on the card overrides the normal limitations of a ranged attack? Left to my own devices, I don't think I would have ever come to that same conclusion since this is still stated to be a ranged attack.

Ability cards – I could really use some clarification on which cards can affect the mouse using the ability. I know that Tilda's Mace (not actually an ability) has been specifically ruled to not include her figure as part of the effect. Many of the abilities, however, use close to the exact same wording as the 'healing' cards, which apparently can be used on 'yourself', but it seems like some of these cards don't include the mouse that used it:

Give Order - Choose a mouse on the same tile. Seems pretty overpowered if Collin really can use it on himself.

Inspire - Again, does this include Collin?

Protect - Card says 'All mice on same space'. Jerry says it doesn't include the mouse who used the ability, but again, nothing clearly indicates this.

Fortify - Card says 'All mice on same tile'. Text of the card is almost exactly like Protect, but does it, or does it not, affect the user?

First Aid, Cure & Major Heal - As far as I know these can heal the user.

Thanks in advance for any help.
 
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Enon Sci
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The fishhook confused my group too during our first playthrough. We realized, however, that the "normal movement" line you quoted from the fishhook passage is simply saying "now apply the normal movement for the terrain type."

Remember, the fishhook isn't just for the sewers in chapter 1, it can be used to cross any red line, in any context. Naturally, the rules are written to speak to this general sense. More specifically, the fishhook isn't necessary for getting out of water, it's necessary for crossing the red line, and in such the normal movement rules apply for the specific terrain.

El_Hefe wrote:


Mystic attack abilities – Each of these abilities states that the target or targets are “Attacked by this mouse with a ranged attack”, so it seems logical to assume that the line of sight rules apply to each ability. I know Jerry has ruled otherwise, but would appreciate some insight as to why. Is it because the initial target selection text on the card overrides the normal limitations of a ranged attack? Left to my own devices, I don't think I would have ever come to that same conclusion since this is still stated to be a ranged attack.




As a relative newcomer myself, I haven't overheard any discussion on this. I'd be interested in knowing this too, as I've always considered mystical abilities to be usable at range.

 
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Jeff Wright
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Anarchosyn wrote:

As a relative newcomer myself, I haven't overheard any discussion on this. I'd be interested in knowing this too, as I've always considered mystical abilities to be usable at range.



Sorry, maybe that was a little confusing. I was just commenting on the fact that, apparently, Mystic Bolt and Chain Lightning don't require line of sight to use, like regular ranged attacks do.
 
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Michael
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El_Hefe wrote:

Give Order - Choose a mouse on the same tile. Seems pretty overpowered if Collin really can use it on himself.

Inspire - Again, does this include Collin?


Inspire works on Collin (see quote from Jerry below), so I assume Give Order would work, too. It makes little thematic sense to me, but I don't think Give Order would be overpowered if used on Collin, since it is much more potent when used to give an attack to Nez (4 attack vs Collin's 3), Lily or Finch (Cheese wheel control).

nobeerblues wrote:
Inspire is used at the beginning of Collin's turn before he does anything else. He spends 2 cheese to inspire. Then he, and any other mouse that takes a turn after him until the end of the round, can spend 1 cheese to use an additional action. This could be any of the available actions, but s most commonly attacks.

Obviously, the higher on the initiative track Collin is, the more potent this ability is.
 
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John "Omega" Williams
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1: Rules page 10 state getting out of the water uses a full movement and requires a roll to succeed.

But page 18 the fishhook once placed allows normal movement along its path.

2: Rules page 18 state that rats from surges cannot be ignored so one can assume that also goes for special encounter rats unless the encounter text states otherwise.

3: Battle leader says swap mice on the initiative track after taking a turn with the mouse about to use the skill. It does not mention any initiative triggers?

4: Magic. Doesnt need LOS to hit?

5:A & B: Well seems a little odd to order/inspire oneself around. I dont think Collin is THAT bossy. heh.

5:C: Think of it as really reading all "other" mice in each case.

5:D: This one is tricky as it says "all mice on the same tile as" which can be read as "everyone except" the caster. Or could be read as ALL. Interpret it as you like, its no more potent to include the caster.

5:E: All three indicates they heals another mouse. So not the caster.

Hope that helps.
 
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Enon Sci
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Omega2064 wrote:
El_Hefe wrote:


First Aid, Cure & Major Heal - As far as I know these can heal the user.

Thanks in advance for any help.


5E All three indicates they heals another mouse. So not the caster.

Hope that helps.


This is incorrect, at least as far as first aid.

nobeerblues wrote:
RMGreen wrote:
So Jerry, just to be completely clear:

Tilda's Mace should be OTHER wounded mice and not Tilda herself.
First Aid should be ANY wounded mice, including the mouse using the ability.

Correct?
Yes


(the above quote is from Jerry, and findable in this thread: http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/875059/tildas-mace-heal).

This is reiterated by Jerry in another thread as well:

nobeerblues wrote:
varoan wrote:


thanks for clarifying this. But the way the mace is worded in the rulebook, it would give her a bonus if she's wounded, seeing as she's always in the same space as herself, and the card fail to state each other mouse, but instead say each mouse.

does this mean the mouse with first aid wasn't supposed to be able to heal itself, as it has the same wording? It says a and not another, so this would allow it to heal itself as well.

Thanks! Good catch. Yes Tilda can heal herself, but she cannot get a bonus from her own wounds when using her mace.


http://boardgamegeek.com/article/11249094#11249094
 
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Jeff Wright
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Omega2064 wrote:


3: Battle leader says swap mice on the initiative track after taking a turn with the mouse about to use the skill. It does not mention any initiative triggers?



Sorry, my mistake here, I meant Born to Lead, the ability/power on his character card. Didn't have the full box in front of me when concocting this thread.

Also, thanks everyone for the responses.
 
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Ken Marley
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Is a note it is better to number your questions. It makes them easier to answer.

Fish hook allows you to avoid rolling! but you still most stop when leaving water.

Collin's ability: is everytime initiative is reset. So if there is a surge and you shuffle iniative cards then Colin gets a cheese! but if there is a surge and you just place the iniative card at the end then Colin does not get a cheese.

Give order can not be used on Colin.

Inspire does work for Colin.

Protect does not work on yourself.

Fortify does work on yourself.

First Aid, Cure, and Major Heal all work on the caster.


Hope that helps.



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Enon Sci
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youperguy wrote:


Fish hook allows you to avoid rolling! but you still most stop when leaving water.



Humm, we interpreted this differently. We see the fishhook as serving one mechanical purpose: crossing red lines. Any other terrain based rules were still honored. So, crossing from the ground to a table would cost 1 movement point, but climbing out of the water would still necessitate a roll (per its normal transitional rules).

I could see it going either way. Was this clarified by Jerry?


Here's the clarification by Jerry:

nobeerblues wrote:
minksling wrote:
Ha, yes ... I do get the points you are putting forward.
If 4 mice though were on that river space, the first searched, found the hook, placed the hook, then moved directly out onto the other bank; then each of the other 3 mice zipped straight up the line and onto the bank, performing an action of their choice in addition ...that's a pretty mean feat. Especially when none of them would "need" to make their river exit roll.

It almost seems too easy for them. I know there's that first gamble of having to locate the hook.

Hey, but if that's the rule, that's the rule ... and I'm happy to run with it.

Please Jerry, put me out of my misery
Note: I'm not really that miserable ... I'm having too much fun constructing my Cheddar Golem


If you start your move while on water, no matter what, your move is always 1 even if using the fishhook.

The fishhook allows you to cross whatever would normally penalize you or prevent you from crossing. It allows mice to cross from water to dry land without suffering the chance of failure. It is my hope that players will use it in creative ways.

In the base set, I have almost always placed a fishhook and thread close to the obstacle that it could be used to traverse. In the future, I will avoid this so that players will need to be more resourceful. In the outdoor expansion, some of the water areas are more dangerous, and weather conditions might conspire to make the current more swift. A good tinkerer might be able to craft party items instead of being at the mercy of a random draw, but he won't always be successful. Trying to find an alternate way across rapidly moving water could take longer than risking a swim, but at least it is an alternative for a party of mice who have no party items that help them to cross.


http://boardgamegeek.com/article/14434332#14434332

---
--
-

Edit: wow Holy Hell! wow


nobeerblues wrote:
daveyleedsUK wrote:

Ok so this has been puzzling me... if you can move 'upstream' against a current and scurry so that you don't keep ending up on the same space how can a mouse end up being pushed off the board and being captured? Surely you just scurry all the time to avoid it til u can get out?

I kinda like the idea that you can't move against the current as makes it more challenging. Thoughts anyone?

Cheers
you cannot move against the stream. You can only move in the direction of the current.

(Crud, I just looked back at the rulebook, and it is not mentioned that a mouse cannot move against the current, this is an oversight. Mice cannot move against the direction of he current.)


http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/10715087#10715087

*Head Explodes*
 
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John "Omega" Williams
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Ok so the First aid has a typo and it CAN be used on self. Well thats good to know.
 
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Jeff Wright
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youperguy wrote:
Is a note it is better to number your questions. It makes them easier to answer.

Fish hook allows you to avoid rolling! but you still most stop when leaving water.

Collin's ability: is everytime initiative is reset. So if there is a surge and you shuffle iniative cards then Colin gets a cheese! but if there is a surge and you just place the iniative card at the end then Colin does not get a cheese.

Give order can not be used on Colin.

Inspire does work for Colin.

Protect does not work on yourself.

Fortify does work on yourself.

First Aid, Cure, and Major Heal all work on the caster.


Hope that helps.





Thank you - that is helpful.

To be honest, I had figured out most of that by reading through the ginormous (ginormouse?) rules thread on the PH forums, but was hoping for a little more insight into why the rulings 'came down' the way they did. A lot of that has to do with the long-time game player (and sometimes rules lawyer) that I am, but in the end, I'm having tremendous fun regardless.
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