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Subject: Rules Questions after First Scenario rss

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Brian Knoll
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Let me start by saying I'm loving the game -- played the first scenario only solo twice -- haven't played Screaming Eagles. Coming from a CC:E heavy background, although I did play and own some ASL stuff years back.

Had a few questions after my first two plays and have a buddy coming over later so was hoping to get some "expert" advice on these questions.

Fire mods -- are adjacent(+3) and open ground (+4) cumulative?
It clearly states on the player aid that "the following are cumulative." I guess I'm only asking because +7 seems like a huge modifier. But I could understand it -- you're right next to me and have no cover. Just wanted to make sure.

For Op Fire -- does it hit everyone in the hex like other direct fire or only the moving unit?
I think it's just the moving unit, but wanted to make sure (coming from CC:E probably skews my thinking -- might start another thread about the major differences, kind of like a Mac to Windows thing).

Final Op Fire Modifiers:
What's the point of -2 to FP for Final Op fire if by definition Final Op is for units that move to an adjacent hex and then you just add +1 back for it being adjacent? Won't it always be -1 then? (I know there's the exception of using a CP to shoot further than an adjacent hex, but that's the exception whereas the +1 for adjacency is the rule.)

Keeping track of units used in Operations Phase "impulses":
It's not bad necessarily for the first phase, as you can simply count used markers/op fire markers, but it seems like this could get a little more challenging when you go back and forth and have a bunch of units marked used at the start of your impulse.

I wonder if this seemed harder for me only because it was one of my first times playing so my mind was all over the place and if it wouldn't even be close to an issue later.

Finally, chit management:
While playing, even with the stacking limit of 2, I had chits all over the hexes in and around the buildings the Germans started off holding. I mean lots of chits -- used chits, suppression chits, two units, etc. Just seemed like a lot of chits and perhaps I could do a better job of consolidating, using one chit to indicate that both are used, etc.


Thanks for any feedback! Again, loving the game. Would love to see Norman do a video play-through, as his other videos have been very helpful. Thanks, Norman! And thanks to the designer! I can't wait to get to the tanks!





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Sean McCormick
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brianeknoll wrote:
Let me start by saying I'm loving the game -- played the first scenario only solo twice -- haven't played Screaming Eagles. Coming from a CC:E heavy background, although I did play and own some ASL stuff years back.

Had a few questions after my first two plays and have a buddy coming over later so was hoping to get some "expert" advice on these questions.

Fire mods -- are adjacent(+3) and open ground (+4) cumulative?
It clearly states on the player aid that "the following are cumulative." I guess I'm only asking because +7 seems like a huge modifier. But I could understand it -- you're right next to me and have no cover. Just wanted to make sure.


Yes, it's the full +7. Prepare to see your entire squad bite it should they attempt this particular maneuver.

brianeknoll wrote:
For Op Fire -- does it hit everyone in the hex like other direct fire or only the moving unit?
I think it's just the moving unit, but wanted to make sure (coming from CC:E probably skews my thinking -- might start another thread about the major differences, kind of like a Mac to Windows thing).


You hit everyone in the hex, but with different modifiers for the moving and non-moving units.

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Jim Krohn
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Quote:
Fire mods -- are adjacent(+3) and open ground (+4) cumulative?
It clearly states on the player aid that "the following are cumulative." I guess I'm only asking because +7 seems like a huge modifier. But I could understand it -- you're right next to me and have no cover. Just wanted to make sure.


Yep. Advancing against positions through open ground was deadly. Get some effective fire on that position and everything changes.

Quote:
For Op Fire -- does it hit everyone in the hex like other direct fire or only the moving unit?
I think it's just the moving unit, but wanted to make sure (coming from CC:E probably skews my thinking -- might start another thread about the major differences, kind of like a Mac to Windows thing).


It does hit everyone in the hex, but the modifiers are different. For example: +4 against the moving unit in the open and +0 against the unit that was already in that hex.

Quote:
Final Op Fire Modifiers:
What's the point of -2 to FP for Final Op fire if by definition Final Op is for units that move to an adjacent hex and then you just add +1 back for it being adjacent? Won't it always be -1 then? (I know there's the exception of using a CP to shoot further than an adjacent hex, but that's the exception whereas the +1 for adjacency is the rule.)


Yes, it is because Final Op Fire can be more than one hex away by using a CP.

I suppose I could have said it is +3 vs adjacent for non-Final Op Fire and then +1 vs adjacent for Final Op Fire, but either way you end up with another modifier. Actually you would get an extra modifier because I would still have to list -2 for Final Op Fire non-adjacent.

Quote:
Keeping track of units used in Operations Phase "impulses":
It's not bad necessarily for the first phase, as you can simply count used markers/op fire markers, but it seems like this could get a little more challenging when you go back and forth and have a bunch of units marked used at the start of your impulse.

I wonder if this seemed harder for me only because it was one of my first times playing so my mind was all over the place and if it wouldn't even be close to an issue later.


What I normally do is grab the maximum number of used markers at the start of the impulse. Those are the ones I use to mark units. Of course, if I use a vehicle/Gun/Artillery, then I have to discard two extra.

Others I know put a used marker on the turn track and move it as they use units.

Quote:
Finally, chit management:
While playing, even with the stacking limit of 2, I had chits all over the hexes in and around the buildings the Germans started off holding. I mean lots of chits -- used chits, suppression chits, two units, etc. Just seemed like a lot of chits and perhaps I could do a better job of consolidating, using one chit to indicate that both are used, etc.


That's what I do. If a chit is on top of two units that are stacked together then it applies to both. For example, if I only use one unit in a hex, I put that unit on the bottom with the Used marker and the other unit on top. When I use the top unit, I move it under the Used marker.

It actually gets easier in the other scenarios because a stacking of 1 is more common. The narrow scope of the intro scenario, the nature of a city fight, realistically sees more troop compression than normal. Of course, this is because there are more squads than frontal hexes.

Quote:
Thanks for any feedback! Again, loving the game. Would love to see Norman do a video play-through, as his other videos have been very helpful. Thanks, Norman! And thanks to the designer! I can't wait to get to the tanks!


Enjoy!
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Jim Krohn
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Sorry for the cross-post. Thanks for answering, Sean!
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Mike Hoyt

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In a lot of scenarios, like the introductory tank one in GP for instance, there is a fairly well defined front line for both sides (at least at first) and in those cases I'll often put the MOVE or USED markers in a hex adjacent and behind the unit. This works especially well playing solo and it's not too hard to remember which marker goes with which unit.

Also, I've noticed that the infantry in particular have room in the upper left side to place markers so that they don't cover the morale (right side) and fire factors (bottom), so I usually place Suppression right on the unit, but in such a way that I don't have to lift it to check the numbers. (GP made this a little less useful because you cover up the SATW value, but still, that's only one number and its easy enough to remember that while keeping everything else visible)

One other advantage I've noticed in putting the USED markers adjacent to units is that they're quicker to pick up in the recovery step. Sometimes I can just sweep the "back-half" of the board, instead of trying to pick up markers off the tops of units without disturbing anything.

Likewise, I play the CP chits on the turn track. If it's the beginning of turn 2, then all of the CP marker are in the 2 space. As they get spent, I put them on the 3 space.
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Michael Spinella
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Mike, with regards to how you use the CPs, how do you keep track of which unit the CP was used on? I ask since a unit can only have one CP used on it per turn. If there is only one CP, it's easy but more and it is possible it becomes more confusing.
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Mike Hoyt

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VR_IronFist wrote:
Mike, with regards to how you use the CPs, how do you keep track of which unit the CP was used on? I ask since a unit can only have one CP used on it per turn. If there is only one CP, it's easy but more and it is possible it becomes more confusing.


You're right of course, but my memory is (still) good enough to handle that.

Or, I suppose it maybe isn't, in which case I'll never know playing solo, but FtF my opponent is likely to notice.

Or, if you want it on the map, I'd still recommend putting it with the Used marker.

I just really hate stacks of counters, so I remember my initial reaction to Screaming Eagles was somewhat muted by the need to apply markers. As I've played the series my admiration and enjoyment has only grown, so I don't want anybody to miss out on a great game when it's so easy to handle the markers, truly not an issue any more.
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Brian Knoll
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Thanks all for the very helpful and super quick responses -- made my evening
Game with a new player much smoother.

A few more questions came up -- as they are wont to do-- during play:

-LOS... Can I move units at all to check if I don't use a string? What if the hex has multiple chits that cover even the terrain almost completely? Could I ask my opponent to straighten up their chits?

- if I want to move but fail a morale check am I subject to Op fire?

- if my modified FP is only one-half, can I still fire and hope for a one? This came up when a Russian unit moved then assault fired at long range at a unit in a stone building.

- can you shoot at people during rout?

- Do routing units have to move to closest available cover or can they go anywhere to cover following rout guidelines even if they cross a street to get to a building when they could have moved one hex to woods?

- if I retreat, am I subject to Op fire?

Thanks again everyone. Your answers really help, especially to gain the confidence to teach someone else!

-



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Mike Hoyt

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brianeknoll wrote:


-LOS... Can I move units at all to check if I don't use a string? What if the hex has multiple chits that cover even the terrain almost completely? Could I ask my opponent to straighten up their chits?


The rules say you can't check LOS for free, if a unit attempts to fire and LOS is then found to be blocked, the unit is still USED. However, shifting units to even see the terrain strikes me as very much OK, and certainly I would allow that.

Quote:
if I want to move but fail a morale check am I subject to Op fire?


No, OP fire is only triggered by movement. Even tanks changing facing in a hex does not trigger OP

Quote:
if my modified FP is only one-half, can I still fire and hope for a one? This came up when a Russian unit moved then assault fired at long range at a unit in a stone building.


I'd say no

Quote:
can you shoot at people during rout?


No. The rout phase is after the Operations Phase, and shooting occurs in the operations phase

Quote:
Do routing units have to move to closest available cover or can they go anywhere to cover following rout guidelines even if they cross a street to get to a building when they could have moved one hex to woods?


There is no requirement of "closest available cover" in the rules. I'd say it's your choice as long as you follow the rest of the rule (not closer to an enemy unit in LOS, etc.)

Quote:
if I retreat, am I subject to Op fire?


Yes. Retreating is a way to temporarily boost the unit's morale so it can move, but that movement occurs in the Operations phase and OP fire is allowed. The retreating unit has to follow the rout rules, but it is not routing, it is moving.

Quote:
Thanks again everyone. Your answers really help, especially to gain the confidence to teach someone else!


You bet. And I hope I'm right

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Don Landry
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Yeah, approaching an adjacent enemy in the open is usually very bloody. I remember one game of "Screaming Eagles" where my German squad attempted to enter a hex of a fully suppressed American from the open. Imagine how far my jaw dropped, when my opponent proceeded to pass his proficiency check, then rolled two on the attack!cry
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Brian Knoll
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Mike, thanks so much for the responses!

One last for this weekend . . . having to do with Op Fire/Final Op Fire

From the infantry training scenario, the Russians are moving across the street to enter Victory Condition Building. They need to move two hexes---they're starting in wooden building, crossing the street, and then moving into the German VC-Bldg. That's their goal.

The German unit in the building Op Fires on the Russians when they move into the street and is marked used. The Russians at this point are in the road and adjacent to the Germans in the V-Bldg. The Russians pass the morale check and continue moving from the road hex into the V-Bldg hex where the German unit is that /just/ fired upon them.

Can the German unit, who just Op Fired at the Russians in the road, also Final Op Fire at those same Russians before the Russians enter the Germans hex?*

If the German unit can then they get 2 fire attempts at the same unit moving at them in the space of, really, one hex.

Does the question make sense? The Russians are only moving two hexes to end in the German V-Bldg hex.

Let me know if more detail is needed.

Thanks again.

*Just remembered another part of this... are the Russians and Germans in Melee the second they move into an enemy occupied hex or not until the Melee phase?
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Michael Spinella
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Brian, based on this rule:

A unit may attempt Final Op Fire every time an enemy unit
moves adjacent. A unit that attempted Op Fire or Final Op Fire
may attempt Final Op Fire at the same unit during the same
move, but ONLY if the moving unit enters a different hex. (This
allows you to Final Op Fire at the same unit multiple times.)
p.5, last paragraph on section 10.0

in your situation you would not get to Final OP fire before the Soviet squad entered the bldg. since it isn't entering another adjacent hex. However if it had to end it's movement adjacent, then on the next turn the Germans could Final OP fire because of this rule:

Op Fire (or Final Op Fire - see 10.0) MAY be conducted at a moving unit in the hex in which it began the turn if the first hex it
would enter is that of an enemy unit. It is subject to all the modifiers
that it normally would be, including (possibly) moving in
Open Ground.
p.4 section 9.0.

Therefore if I understand your scenario correctly, you would OP Fire and then the Soviet squad would enter the same hex and wait for the Route Phase.
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Norman Smith
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Agreed, a unit can only op fire on a unit that enters it's own hex if that enemy unit started their movement adjacent to them and theirs was the first hex they entered in their movement.
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Brian Knoll
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Michael and Norman, thank you! The "moving into an adjacent hex" detail was an important one that I missed.

In regard to the firing with less than 1 FP question I asked previously in the thread, the following rule tells me that, no, the Russian couldn't have fired at long range:

"If the adjusted firepower is less than 1, the attack may still be made as long as it is within normal Range." - GP Rules p3 6.1

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Andy Skinner
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I addressed counter clutter with two things:

1) Make a list of units on paper, with numbers or letters identifying them. Use Concealed markers with blank backs, and write those numbers or letter on them. If concealed, only put that marker on the hex. When revealed, look it up and replace the concealed counter with the appropriate one. That gets rid of one counter.

2) Make a bunch of smaller counters. I used a hole punch. I wish I'd had a bunch of leftover card from a game, since the corrugated I used wasn't very nice. But I printed out a sheet of letters on colored areas and used a hole punch to make small circular counters. This was for Screaming Eagles, and I've only used infantry, so I probably need more counters. Here's a post about it: (after several edits)
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1039571

There is a link to a picture of these in use and the PDF file I used to make them.

andy
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Brian Knoll
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Here's a summary of the questions and short answers on this thread---thought it might be helpful. Much thanks to all who contributed!

Fire mods -- Are adjacent(+3) and open ground (+4) modifiers cumulative? Yes. Units moving into open ground adjacent to an enemy are subject to a +7 modifier.

Op Fire -- Does Op Fire hit everyone in the hex or only the moving unit? Everyone, but with different modifiers for the moving and non-moving units.

Operations Phase/Used units -- How to keep track of units used in Operations Phase "impulses"? Grab the maximum number of Used markers at the start of the impulse. Use to mark units. If you use a vehicle/Gun/Artillery, discard two extra Used markers.

Chit management – How to manage?
Reduce: Use one chit on top of units stacked together if it applies to both.

Option chit placement: Put MOVE or USED markers in a hex adjacent and behind the unit. Quicker to pick up in the recovery step. For infantry, place Suppression marker on the unit in a way that leaves numbers visible.

Option alter/create counters*: Create a list of units on paper, giving each a number. Write # on back of blank concealed chit. Replace w/ unit as they lose concealment. Reduce chit size: create hole-punch-sized chits.

LOS -- Can I move units at all to check if I don't use a string? What if the hex has multiple chits that cover even the terrain almost completely? Could I ask my opponent to straighten up their chits? Shifting units to see the terrain is OK. (Follow up: Does “shifting” mean I could remove the counters so I can see the entire hexes for both firer and target’s hex as long as I don’t use a string or other tool to check LOS?)

Op Fire/Moving/Morale Check -- If I want to move but fail a morale check am I subject to Op fire? No. OP fire is only triggered by movement. Even tanks changing facing in a hex does not trigger OP.

Low FP -- if my modified FP is only one-half, can I still fire and hope for a one? No. "If the adjusted firepower is less than 1, the attack may still be made as long as it is within normal Range." - GP Rules p3 6.1

Rout/Fire -- Can you shoot at people during rout? No. The rout phase is after the Operations Phase; shooting occurs in the operations phase.

Rout - Do routing units have to move to closest available cover? No. They can move anywhere following the rout guidelines, even if they move two hexes to cross a street to a building when they could have moved one hex to woods.

Move/Retreat/Op Fire -- If I retreat, am I subject to Op fire? Yes. Retreating is a way to temporarily boost the unit's morale so it can move, but that movement occurs in the Operations phase and OP fire is allowed. The retreating unit has to follow the rout rules, but it is not routing, it is moving.


*Andy, interesting idea! I tried the link you posted and it wasn't found, but I found this one from your Contributions page:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1039571/made-my-own-smaller-...
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Andy Skinner
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Thank you for the working link. I'll try to edit it into my message. I can't figure out why I've had so much trouble making that link. I tried several variations on the Insert Geek Link drop-down.

And it isn't like I'm one of the computer-illiterate. I'm on the thing all day long! :)

thanks

andy
 
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