Andrew Bond
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I wondered if anyone would kindly confirm whether you get to keep the 2 determination tokens that you get on an action failing if you decide to re-roll that die (using 2 determination tokens that you already had).

Example, which if these applies?

(Either) Sequence 1...
a. I have 2 determination tokens 'in hand' from earlier play
b. I roll the Success die and get ++ (failure)
c. I take a further 2 determination tokens
d. I decide to reroll the Success Build die using the tokens from (a)
e. I reroll the Success die and get V (success)
f. I end up successful and I keep the 2 tokens won in (b) above

(or) Sequence 2...
a. I have 2 determination tokens 'in hand' from earlier play
b. I roll the Success die and get ++ (failure)
c. (skipped)
d. I decide to reroll the Success die using the tokens from (a)
e. I reroll the Success die and get V (success)
f. I end up successful but with no tokens left

We have been playing Sequence 2, since it seems logical that the reroll 'un-does' the previous unsuccessful roll. However, page 18 of the FAQ 1.01 says the following:

Quote:
I (Carpenter) have no determination tokens and want to build two different things with one pawn each.

First action: roll dice, no success (+2 determination).
Second action: roll dice, no success (+2 determination) - can I use the determination rolled with first action to reroll the success-die of the second item?

Yes, you can. What you can't do is to reroll the dice using the determination tokens you just got for that roll. This implies you can use them for the next roll.


The words in bold seem to imply that Sequence 1 above is correct. This would make re-rolling a no-brainer, since you would not lose anything by it.

Does anyone know the correct interpretation?

Thanks in ancticipation.
 
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Byron Campbell
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You don't. When you reroll a die, you are choosing to completely ignore the result of that roll, including any positive effects.
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Mark Bauer
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You can use determination token to reroll the success die. Therefore you have to have 2 determination token beforehand, because, as kittenhoarder said, you reroll the die, you do not roll it again this means that the first roll is ignored.
However, you can take the 2 determination token from the failure in order to pay for the reroll effect for one of the other two die (the wound or the adventure die).
 
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Andrew Bond
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Thanks to you both for confirming we have been playing it right.

Anduin wrote:
...you can take the 2 determination token from the failure in order to pay for the reroll effect for one of the other two die (the wound or the adventure die).


Where does that interpretation come from? The FAQ says:

Quote:
What you can't do is to reroll the dice using the determination tokens you just got for that roll


Since dice is plural, I assumed you had to have the determination tokens in hand before rolling any of the three action dice (assuming also that these are rolled together). So I am surpised if you can use the newly won tokens on the other two dice...
 
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Michael Bishop
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Quote:
Where does that interpretation come from?


It's made clear in the German edition rules. Each die can be resolved separately.
 
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Mark Bauer
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sorry, seems that this is a case where the German rules contradict the English ones. I can't tell you which rules you should take as the ground truth...
 
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Andrew Bond
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Cush1978 wrote:
It's made clear in the German edition rules. Each die can be resolved separately


I don't like that ... It breaks another atomic action down into sub-atomic parts. I would prefer the rolling of all three dice to be one atomic action. Then you choose to re-roll one or more, but only with tokens already owned, not gained in this action.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying.
 
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Mark Bauer
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You still roll all 3 die at once. You just resolve them one after the other. (You physically do that anyways.) You can just use the determination token of the failure die to reroll one of the other two.
but, yeah, you should stick to the English rules for consistency anyways.
 
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Michael Bishop
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This probably needs to be pinned or stickied somewhere:

The first Portal edition and the Z-Man edition have essentially identical rules. These rules were sanctioned by the developer. There's also an official FAQ.

While there are no rule issues that can "break" the game, there is plenty left to be clarified. A document was started here but has never been finalized and some of the questions haven't been answered.

Since August of 2013, the developer has more or less abandoned the idea of clarifying or assisting with any rules issues.

Next up is the German edition. Pegasus, realizing that the rules needed significant work, had them entirely redone and updated by BGG user Dumon. His work exists in the form of a German rulebook and the document here in the Files section outlining the changes for non-German speakers. The game's developer sanctioned/blessed/confirmed/whatever those rules as well. There is no equivalent English rulebook or update.

Finally, you have the 2nd edition of the Polish version. It too contains a rules update that I don't know too much about. With regards to building, it directly contradicts the German version. This edition was also sanctioned by the developer.

There's a forthcoming 2nd German edition, but there are no rules changes in it.

So your "official" rules document varies depending which language you speak and which publisher you got your rules from. The developer has never issued an update for the entire community or even posted on the issue. What we have now is 5000 new owners of the Z-Man edition looking for the same rules clarifications the previous owners wanted in August.

My advice is to adhere to the German rules regarding action resolution and building. I would also grab the file that Dumon posted. That's because Dumon is about the only guy with "official say" here actively answering questions and participating with the community.

Until an official English update/FAQ exists, that's probably the best way to where you can enjoy the game with as few headaches as possible.

Of course the alternative is to adhere to the "do what makes sense to you" and "this game is about storytelling, not rules" mantras but there are those of us out there that like to know whether our hard-earned wins are "legitimate" or not!
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Andrew Bond
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Cush1978 wrote:
This probably needs to be pinned or stickied somewhere...


Thanks for summarizing the current situation - I found that most helpful.

Cush1978 wrote:
Of course the alternative is to adhere to the "do what makes sense to you" ...


I think that is the way I am going to go until a better (english) rulebook appears. As least, as a co-op, we all win or lose together.
 
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geocentrix wrote:
Cush1978 wrote:
It's made clear in the German edition rules. Each die can be resolved separately


I don't like that ... It breaks another atomic action down into sub-atomic parts. I would prefer the rolling of all three dice to be one atomic action. Then you choose to re-roll one or more, but only with tokens already owned, not gained in this action.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying.


my version (and the ones shown in the images files on BGG) clearly state that you re-roll only one die. although i agree that you shouldnt be able to spend token gained by the same 'action' so you would have to have the tokens before rolling.

there are some scenarios where re-rolling one of the other die (other than the success die) has come up for us.

if you are on your last health, re-rolling the would dice could be a final hail-mary whether you succeed or fail at the task.

re-rolling the adventure die to not get a card.

re-rolling the adventure dice so you DO get a card. this came up because we had not yet made the cure and we knew the next card out the event deck would screw us. so drawing another adventure card would give us some time by shuffling the event deck again.

 
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Michael Bishop
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Quote:
my version (and the ones shown in the images files on BGG) clearly state that you re-roll only one die.


It is one die for every 2 determination tokens you spend. If you have 6 determination tokens, you could re-roll each die once if you wanted.

Quote:
although i agree that you shouldnt be able to spend token gained by the same 'action' so you would have to have the tokens before rolling.


Maybe so, I tend to agree. I'm just clarifying what currently exists as the German rules which are more concise than the English ones.
 
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Cush1978 wrote:
Quote:
my version (and the ones shown in the images files on BGG) clearly state that you re-roll only one die.


It is one die for every 2 determination tokens you spend. If you have 6 determination tokens, you could re-roll each die once if you wanted.

Quote:
although i agree that you shouldnt be able to spend token gained by the same 'action' so you would have to have the tokens before rolling.


Maybe so, I tend to agree. I'm just clarifying what currently exists as the German rules which are more concise than the English ones.


you can only use each special ability once per round, so you cannot re-roll more than one die from a roll.
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Michael Bishop
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Quote:
you can only use each special ability once per round, so you cannot re-roll more than one die from a roll.


Er, yeah, that's what I get for posting at 7am. Sorry about that. What I meant to clarify was that spending the determination tokens nets you a single die re-roll, not all of them. Then my example went totally off the mark.
 
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Eric O. LEBIGOT
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geocentrix wrote:
The FAQ says:

Quote:
What you can't do is to reroll the dice using the determination tokens you just got for that roll


Since dice is plural, I assumed you had to have the determination tokens in hand before rolling any of the three action dice (assuming also that these are rolled together). So I am surpised if you can use the newly won tokens on the other two dice...
Just for reference: my dictionary says that "dice" can also be singular, to add to the confusion… I'm still not clear about which die/dice can be rolled. In addition to the problems already mentioned, there is the fact that it is "recommended" to resolve the dice in order: "Wound" (so no way to prevent it), "Success" (can be resolved and give 2 Determination tokens"), and "Adventure" (I guess that the 2 Determination tokens can be used immediately to re-roll it, as they are normally used, but it's just a guess).
 
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Craig S.
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Pretty sure you cannot re-roll any of the three dice using tokens you received from the success die on that roll. You must have the tokens before the roll to re-roll any of the dice.
 
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