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Subject: Cant win as Demons!!! rss

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Jake
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Hi all! Love the game! Recently got back into it after a year layoff. But after 12 games of 6 or so scenarios out of the base and profundis I cant figure out how to win as the demons! I have not played as the humans yet. I got maybe 3 wins and my gf kicks my demon butt! 70% of the time or so I use my dice to go for more trogs/hounds but sometimes an event card or defense boost. What am I doing wrong? I see posts talking about how the demons have the upper hand and articles on strategy for the humans. Cleansing with fire out of profundis is the most recent one. I lost 3 times in a row!!

p.s.- feel guilty asking for help as more time might show me the dark.
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jakece wrote:
Hi all! Love the game! Recently got back into it after a year layoff. But after 12 games of 6 or so scenarios out of the base and expansion games I cant figure out how to win as the demons! I have not played as the humans yet. I got maybe 3 wins and my gf kicks my demon butt! 70% of the time or so I use my dice to go for more trogs/hounds but sometimes an event card or defense boost. What am I doing wrong? I see posts talking about how the demons have the upper hand and articles on strategy for the humans. Cleanse with fire is the recent one I lost 3 times in a row!!

p.s.- feel guilty asking for help as more time might show me the dark.


A few quick tips off of the top of my head.

Don't spend threat points as soon as you get them. Save them up. Get cards much more often; they are powerful. Use the Hell Hounds to block the humans (give them impressive IIRC).
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Jake
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Wow thanks! So quick! Love BGG

-Jake
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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The base rules makes Demon win quite easy in this scenario, actually. Next game, amass a bucketload of event cards, spending all dice on card draw. Event cards are very powerful.
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Jake
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rattkin wrote:
The base rules makes Demon win quite easy in this scenario, actually. Next game, amass a bucketload of event cards, spending all dice on card draw. Event cards are very powerful.


Well I played again 2 days ago and got pulverized. I got a couple of cards but stopped at three as I was using profundis. I realized how strong they can be but when I went to use them she was literally flipping the exit tile. 20 minute game with only 10 tiles total in the scenario. 5 hits on her redeemer but that was all I did. 5 trogs and 2 hellhounds. I went for him as he had the lowest defense and one of her brutes was always blessing buffed to 6 defense and 2 movement (darn dice rolls). Really feel Im missing something shake

Concerning the specific scenario, just for example, the brutes are key for her to burn the eggs. Should I be fully focused on those two? I feel maybe I should go for her redeemer regardless due to his powerful blessings she uses nearly every turn. (This has been my most consistently played scenario but I get owned no matter which we play).
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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Somehow, I was under the impression that you're talking about scenario #1. #1 is "balanced" towards Demon. #2 is "balanced" towards Humans.

In #1, Hole in ground is probably the most unfortunate tile for Humans. Still, remember that, unless Redeemer plays precog, it's the Demon who arranges tiles. It's not uncommon to lure humans into 6 tiles or so, and then "close" the tunnel, moving the dice to another one, far back.

In #2, try to bodyblock as much as possible, spreading troggs on different tiles. Bringing out demon early helps, otherwise rely on event cards.

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Bob Holmstrom
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jakece wrote:
rattkin wrote:
The base rules makes Demon win quite easy in this scenario, actually. Next game, amass a bucketload of event cards, spending all dice on card draw. Event cards are very powerful.


Well I played again 2 days ago and got pulverized. I got a couple of cards but stopped at three as I was using profundis. I realized how strong they can be but when I went to use them she was literally flipping the exit tile. 20 minute game with only 10 tiles total in the scenario. 5 hits on her redeemer but that was all I did. 5 trogs and 2 hellhounds. I went for him as he had the lowest defense and one of her brutes was always blessing buffed to 6 defense and 2 movement (darn dice rolls). Really feel Im missing something shake

Concerning the specific scenario, just for example, the brutes are key for her to burn the eggs. Should I be fully focused on those two? I feel maybe I should go for her redeemer regardless due to his powerful blessings she uses nearly every turn. (This has been my most consistently played scenario but I get owned no matter which we play).


I haven't played that scenario yet, but from looking at it, I would look to build up threat to use on the lair tiles where you can spawn trogs any time. I would not spawn hellhounds much as they suck up a die each turn after the first.

When I would spawn hellhounds, I would save a die that turn so that the next turn you have 4 dice and giving one to the hellhound still leaves you three.

I'll try and play it a couple times this weekend and post my thoughts.

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Daniel Kearns
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jakece wrote:
rattkin wrote:
The base rules makes Demon win quite easy in this scenario, actually. Next game, amass a bucketload of event cards, spending all dice on card draw. Event cards are very powerful.


Well I played again 2 days ago and got pulverized. I got a couple of cards but stopped at three as I was using profundis. I realized how strong they can be but when I went to use them she was literally flipping the exit tile. 20 minute game with only 10 tiles total in the scenario. 5 hits on her redeemer but that was all I did. 5 trogs and 2 hellhounds. I went for him as he had the lowest defense and one of her brutes was always blessing buffed to 6 defense and 2 movement (darn dice rolls). Really feel Im missing something shake

Concerning the specific scenario, just for example, the brutes are key for her to burn the eggs. Should I be fully focused on those two? I feel maybe I should go for her redeemer regardless due to his powerful blessings she uses nearly every turn. (This has been my most consistently played scenario but I get owned no matter which we play).


Huh. I've only played the humans and I've only ever played scenario 1 (cause it is so damn good) thus far but I guess I could give some comments.

Are you only attacking the redeemer? He's good but as a human player I would recommend whittling down the heroes easiest up. You got to take out the Blunderbuss guy ASAP. Whack out the two easiest dudes, I forget their name. Each hero lost is a huge blow. Typically my redeemer is the last one left and he often doesn't make it out.

Use trogs to slow the heroes down while you build threat. Try to separate the heroes if possible. Isolate, swamp, kill.

You might consider just working on scenario 1 until you figure out what you're doing wrong.

I own but have never played profundis.

EDIT: one other thing that may be counterintuitive and somewhat contrary to what I stated above but spread the damage around. As a human player, you've got to fit those dice into what is available and each point of damage constrains your choices. When damage starts accumulating, you have to put bad dice on good people because you have no other option. When I thought about when things go south for the humans it is usually a turn when everyone is damaged but still alive and you get a roll that is tough to manage.
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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Also, I'm not entirely convinced that old scenarios play well with de profundis events (even with 3 hand limitation) and hellhounds. The rulebook says you can use them, but I'm not sure if they were really tested for this and for sure they weren't designed with this in mind. So if you use hellhounds, you already might be at disadvantage.
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Jake
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rattkin wrote:
Also, I'm not entirely convinced that old scenarios play well with de profundis events (even with 3 hand limitation) and hellhounds. The rulebook says you can use them, but I'm not sure if they were really tested for this and for sure they weren't designed with this in mind. So if you use hellhounds, you already might be at disadvantage.


This is the first scenario from produndis so I'm playing to the standard rules.

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Neil Logan
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jakece wrote:
her brutes was always blessing buffed to 6 defense and 2 movement (darn dice rolls). Really feel Im missing something


The "Blessed" talent can only be used once per scenario.

Edit: Unless it's different in the expansion? I don't own it
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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There's an aura the Redeemer can use as long as the dice shows the right number, that's probably what he meant.
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Jake
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rattkin wrote:
There's an aura the Redeemer can use as long as the dice shows the right number, that's probably what he meant.


Yes you are correct. Sorry I wasn't clearer.

-jake
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Daniel Kearns
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Any update?

Have you confronted your demons?
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Jake
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dkearns wrote:
Any update?

Have you confronted your demons?


Lost yet again. I think what I'm trying to figure out is if there is a "general" way to play the demons or if it's scenario specific. By the time I get something built and ready to implement I'm running out of time

(At least in cleansing with fire)
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jakece wrote:
dkearns wrote:
Any update?

Have you confronted your demons?


Lost yet again. I think what I'm trying to figure out is if there is a "general" way to play the demons or if it's scenario specific. By the time I get something built and ready to implement I'm running out of time

(At least in cleansing with fire)


Well, if your partner is willing to give it a go, I would recommend switching sides.

I think you would probably learn a lot about playing the demons by learning how painful it is to play the humans.
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Jake
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dkearns wrote:
jakece wrote:
dkearns wrote:
Any update?

Have you confronted your demons?


Lost yet again. I think what I'm trying to figure out is if there is a "general" way to play the demons or if it's scenario specific. By the time I get something built and ready to implement I'm running out of time

(At least in cleansing with fire)


Well, if your partner is willing to give it a go, I would recommend switching sides.

I think you would probably learn a lot about playing the demons by learning how painful it is to play the humans.


Funny, was just saying that to her! Will give it a go but may take a couple weeks. Boxed it up in frustration and am back on mage wars for a bit (which im no better at )

hmmmm... whats the common denominator...
 
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Neil Sorenson
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jakece wrote:
Hi all! Love the game! Recently got back into it after a year layoff. But after 12 games of 6 or so scenarios out of the base and profundis I cant figure out how to win as the demons! I have not played as the humans yet. I got maybe 3 wins and my gf kicks my demon butt! 70% of the time or so I use my dice to go for more trogs/hounds but sometimes an event card or defense boost. What am I doing wrong? I see posts talking about how the demons have the upper hand and articles on strategy for the humans. Cleansing with fire out of profundis is the most recent one. I lost 3 times in a row!!

p.s.- feel guilty asking for help as more time might show me the dark.


Holy crap, man! What version of this game are *you* playing? I just finished my 10th session of this game and the human player HAS NEVER WON. Not once. Not a single time. Never. It's been "close" a few times but not enough for me to consider the game remotely balanced.
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Sylvain Hebert
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Well i just played my first 2 games,i played the first 2 scenarios...I was playing the demons and i won both times.

For me the demons were easy.
 
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Lee Valentine
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Jake, just a thought. Some editions of the game had an error limiting red text board options to once per game when they are once per Threat Phase. If you are playing with those options as once per game you might lose badly.

Lee
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Jake
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hudarklord wrote:
Jake, just a thought. Some editions of the game had an error limiting red text board options to once per game when they are once per Threat Phase. If you are playing with those options as once per game you might lose badly.

Lee


yeah, I know about that. Which advantages to take is the question...


Thanks, Jake
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Read the rulebook, plan for all contingencies, and…read the rulebook again.
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Great game, but my win/loss as the heroes is...abysmal! shake
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Carquinyoli

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My tips (for helping Demons), mainly focused on Survivors (other Scenarios may work different):

- Always have an eye on the stats of every human.
- Keep gathering Threat Points.
- Always leave a die in Calm before the storm. This way, you have always 4 dice to play with.
- Don't try to force anything. Ex: Don't spend 3 dice on a 7.
- Keep an eye on the stats of every human
- When you can come in (free opening, 7, etc.), concentrate your forces on the weakest human. It's better to kill one of the humans early rather than to spread wounds on all them. A human killed is 1 less die for Human player to play with. But again, don't concentrate on a concrete human, and just attack the one with lowest defence stats.
- Always buy Event cards. You can make big combos with them. A human is blocking an entrance, or a brute is blocking the way? you have cards to move them. You have cards to place his dice. If there are humans sharing a tile you have Possession cards.
- Keep an eye on the stats of every human .
- Make good use of Hungry tunnels. Always a good time to come in: if possible, save an event card to move a human (with low DEF stats) on the hungry tunnel, and send in 3 trogs with Frantic state.
- Keep an eye on the talents of humans. You can cancel Impressive talents with something on the board of destiny.
- I don't try to come in with trogs every turn. I tend to spend 2/3 or 3/4 of my turns just gathering resources (TP and event cards), and enter only 2 times (3 maximum) on the map, but deeply devastating.
- If you want to quickly kill an already wounded human, you need 5 trogs, 3 on the same tile as the human (tile A), and 2 in an adjacent tile (tile B). Trogs can move + attack or attack + move. But you can only have 3 trogs on a tile. Attack the human with one of the tile A trogs, and then move it to tile B. Move a tile B trog to tile A and attack the human. Attack the human with a tile A trog, and move it to tile B, etc etc. You can inflict him 5 wounds (imagine Frantic is activated and human has low def stats). If you do that in a hungry tunnel, he's dead. If the last blow is with the Underground hunter (+1 attack per wound on the human), he's slaughtered.

Summing up, my way to play with Demons (in Survivors) is: "Hooold, hooold, hoooooold, hooooooooooooold, ATTAAAAAAACK!!!"

C'mon!! you can do it
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Jake
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Dharzen wrote:
My tips (for helping Demons), mainly focused on Survivors (other Scenarios may work different):

- Always have an eye on the stats of every human.
- Keep gathering Threat Points.
- Always leave a die in Calm before the storm. This way, you have always 4 dice to play with.
- Don't try to force anything. Ex: Don't spend 3 dice on a 7.
- Keep an eye on the stats of every human
- When you can come in (free opening, 7, etc.), concentrate your forces on the weakest human. It's better to kill one of the humans early rather than to spread wounds on all them. A human killed is 1 less die for Human player to play with. But again, don't concentrate on a concrete human, and just attack the one with lowest defence stats.
- Always buy Event cards. You can make big combos with them. A human is blocking an entrance, or a brute is blocking the way? you have cards to move them. You have cards to place his dice. If there are humans sharing a tile you have Possession cards.
- Keep an eye on the stats of every human .
- Make good use of Hungry tunnels. Always a good time to come in: if possible, save an event card to move a human (with low DEF stats) on the hungry tunnel, and send in 3 trogs with Frantic state.
- Keep an eye on the talents of humans. You can cancel Impressive talents with something on the board of destiny.
- I don't try to come in with trogs every turn. I tend to spend 2/3 or 3/4 of my turns just gathering resources (TP and event cards), and enter only 2 times (3 maximum) on the map, but deeply devastating.
- If you want to quickly kill an already wounded human, you need 5 trogs, 3 on the same tile as the human (tile A), and 2 in an adjacent tile (tile B). Trogs can move + attack or attack + move. But you can only have 3 trogs on a tile. Attack the human with one of the tile A trogs, and then move it to tile B. Move a tile B trog to tile A and attack the human. Attack the human with a tile A trog, and move it to tile B, etc etc. You can inflict him 5 wounds (imagine Frantic is activated and human has low def stats). If you do that in a hungry tunnel, he's dead. If the last blow is with the Underground hunter (+1 attack per wound on the human), he's slaughtered.

Summing up, my way to play with Demons (in Survivors) is: "Hooold, hooold, hoooooold, hooooooooooooold, ATTAAAAAAACK!!!"

C'mon!! you can do it



Thanks for the tips! Many I haven't tried. Thanks for the details about how and when to attack! Should get it back to the table next month. Been getting my android fix lately. Thanks again!

-jake
 
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Carquinyoli

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I forgot to tell that I (as Demon player) never attack a human with DEF 6. And I barely attack a human with DEF 5 (only if I can attack with 3/4 dice + frantic or he's wounded and I attack with Underground Hunter). So keep this in mind, along the game, the Human player won't have always high defense stats (statistics). Wait and collect forces (TP and event cards), and when humans have low def stats (3 or 4), then come in with all your forces.

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