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Subject: Guest Room Overpowered? rss

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Aaron Nessim
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Every time the Guest Room gets taken, usually by me, that player wins the game.
Whether it's doubling up ruby mine placement, doing markets+family growth or Desperate Wish for children+victory points, it seems to be the best furnishing in the game.

Is anyone having a similar experience? I've played 5 games, all with experienced Agricola players, from 4-7 players per game.

I usually get it with my second placement on the first round and it gives me advantage all through-out the game.

Edit: There's a loop I take with Guest Room.
Get a couple rubies(starting player or others) and the stone storage room. Then the loop proceeds like this:
Worker: Drift mining
Spend Ruby: place an intersection piece
Worker: Mine Placement, collect stone for additional victory points
Worker: Ruby mining-place a regular and deep ruby mine, get a deep mine ruby
Repeat until the board is full.
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Josh
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I noticed that was strong as well(I don't know about overpowered, I hate to throw that term around casually) in my very first play. I didn't do any fancy loops but 4 Ore+4 Ruby Mines+rubies+doubling other things was nice. I suppose it comes down to other players to see this and start 'blocking', one of the things don't like as much about Caverna, at least initial impressions, is that 'stop you from getting so many points' seems to be as much a part of strategy as 'get points myself' which makes the game a bit more 'mean' compared to it's fraternal twin. Not to mention the question of who 'takes the hit' to stop the chain can lead to unintended king making scenarios or the tragedy of the commons.
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Aaron Nessim
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I'm seeing a lot of opportunities to make your board worse to stop other players from getting optimal furnishings. You can't just counter place workers unless everyone helps you, due to the Imitation spaces. It's worse with 7 players and the 3rd Imitation space.

 
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Stephan Valkyser
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ThePharoah wrote:

Edit: There's a loop I take with Guest Room.
Get a couple rubies(starting player or others) and the stone storage room. Then the loop proceeds like this:
Worker: Drift mining
Spend Ruby: place an intersection piece
Worker: Mine Placement, collect stone for additional victory points
Worker: Ruby mining-place a regular and deep ruby mine, get a deep mine ruby
Repeat until the board is full.


Probably it's me but I don't understand the loop.
Aren't the workers limited in their usage on the board?
Please explain it again for dummies
 
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D P
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ThePharoah wrote:
Worker: Mine Placement, collect stone for additional victory points


Collect stone or Ore with mine placement?
 
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Ægir Æxx
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He has the stone storage room. VP's for stones at the end of the game.
 
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Josh
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Stephan Valkyser wrote:
ThePharoah wrote:

Edit: There's a loop I take with Guest Room.
Get a couple rubies(starting player or others) and the stone storage room. Then the loop proceeds like this:
Worker: Drift mining
Spend Ruby: place an intersection piece
Worker: Mine Placement, collect stone for additional victory points
Worker: Ruby mining-place a regular and deep ruby mine, get a deep mine ruby
Repeat until the board is full.


Probably it's me but I don't understand the loop.
Aren't the workers limited in their usage on the board?
Please explain it again for dummies


I don't think this is necessarily in the same round. It is just a wash-rinse-repeat cycle executed as often as possible.
 
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Aaron Nessim
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Correct. The preface of my edit were to things you need for the loop, then I take it as much as possible.
 
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Shawn Fox
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ThePharoah wrote:
Every time the Guest Room gets taken, usually by me, that player wins the game.
Whether it's doubling up ruby mine placement, doing markets+family growth or Desperate Wish for children+victory points, it seems to be the best furnishing in the game.

Is anyone having a similar experience? I've played 5 games, all with experienced Agricola players, from 4-7 players per game.

I usually get it with my second placement on the first round and it gives me advantage all through-out the game.

Edit: There's a loop I take with Guest Room.
Get a couple rubies(starting player or others) and the stone storage room. Then the loop proceeds like this:
Worker: Drift mining
Spend Ruby: place an intersection piece
Worker: Mine Placement, collect stone for additional victory points
Worker: Ruby mining-place a regular and deep ruby mine, get a deep mine ruby
Repeat until the board is full.


What are you winning scores using this method? If you are getting under 100 points I'm not concerned at all. If you are consistently getting over 120 points there might be a problem.
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Aaron Nessim
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103 was the low and 130 something the high. The 130 was a game where I got the Office Room furnishing to get extra overhang spaces, also the Veggie and grain = 5 food spot. Ended up doing multiple cycles of breeding without killing any animals. I'd hardly call the 130 something a typical game.

Edit: Looking through my box for old scores, there was an 83 where I didn't take the tile until round 6 to show how good it was.
 
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Kyle Mechler
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Yeah, even the most impressive games that I've seen haven't brushed 130 yet. I've seen quite a few over 100, but I think 112 is our high score at the moment. It's a pretty competitive group. I might start noting which rooms the winners have to try to figure out which rooms are the strongest predictor of a victory.
 
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Joseff Amador
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I noticed the guest room worked well with the "Get a ruby mine -or- get a deep ruby mine" space too, though I was only able to pull it off twice.

Didn't seem overpowered as only a few action spaces actually have the "either/or" stipulation.

So, I don't think it's overpowered, but it is powerful. Then again, every furnishing (room) is powerful with certain combos

It felt balanced!
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Kyle Mechler
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The spaces that have Either/Or are also limited in how many times they can be taken, more generally. Ruby mining, for example, requires that you have a deep tunnel and a tunnel. It's hard to take the full both actions even two times.

Seems balanced to me thus far. I've tried to break it. I expect many people will do a much better job than I have, but there is a ceiling for its greatness.
 
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Andrew Smith
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ThePharoah wrote:
Every time the Guest Room gets taken, usually by me, that player wins the game.
Whether it's doubling up ruby mine placement, doing markets+family growth or Desperate Wish for children+victory points, it seems to be the best furnishing in the game.

Is anyone having a similar experience? I've played 5 games, all with experienced Agricola players, from 4-7 players per game.

I usually get it with my second placement on the first round and it gives me advantage all through-out the game.

Edit: There's a loop I take with Guest Room.
Get a couple rubies(starting player or others) and the stone storage room. Then the loop proceeds like this:
Worker: Drift mining
Spend Ruby: place an intersection piece
Worker: Mine Placement, collect stone for additional victory points
Worker: Ruby mining-place a regular and deep ruby mine, get a deep mine ruby
Repeat until the board is full.


Can you take a picture of what your board looks like at the end of this?

Also, how many workers do you have by the end point of the game?
 
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David Barry
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ThePharoah wrote:
Edit: There's a loop I take with Guest Room.
Get a couple rubies(starting player or others) and the stone storage room. Then the loop proceeds like this:
Worker: Drift mining
Spend Ruby: place an intersection piece
Worker: Mine Placement, collect stone for additional victory points
Worker: Ruby mining-place a regular and deep ruby mine, get a deep mine ruby
Repeat until the board is full.


I don't understand how you get stone from placing an Ore mine (which provides ORE) - unless you have two weaponized dwarves, and the dwarf gets a stone from his adventure?

I don't understand where you put the first (regular tunnel) Ruby mine? You need two available tunnels to place two ruby mines, and you just used them both for the Ore mine (creating one deep tunnel); so somewhere this loop needs an additional action or additional Ruby (or a level 9 weapon) to create the additional tunnel.

This loop is limited of course by space on the mountain side (max 3 ore mines, +3 caverns and a max of 4 Ruby mines; OR 2 ore mines, +2 caverns and 6 Ruby mines). The best case is that you could only fully use this loop twice, netting you a total of +8 points for 2 free Ruby mines (less the cost of any extra rubies you spent to place tunnel tiles). You may also be blocked if other players continually take the Ruby mine space (+imitation) first, or you find you need to spend your actions getting food for a harvest etc, so there are other ways this tactic may fall apart.

6-8 points is nice for a cheap furnishing (the guest room) [ + more if you use both actions on Urgent Wish for Children]; but there are several other furnishings and combos which might give more. It looks nice (and a good way to benefit from that room), but not a guaranteed game-winner.
 
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Harold Coleman
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davidb3 wrote:
ThePharoah wrote:
Edit: There's a loop I take with Guest Room.
Get a couple rubies(starting player or others) and the stone storage room. Then the loop proceeds like this:
Worker: Drift mining
Spend Ruby: place an intersection piece
Worker: Mine Placement, collect stone for additional victory points
Worker: Ruby mining-place a regular and deep ruby mine, get a deep mine ruby
Repeat until the board is full.


davidb3 wrote:
I don't understand how you get stone from placing an Ore mine (which provides ORE) - unless you have two weaponized dwarves, and the dwarf gets a stone from his adventure?


I think Aaron means ORE and using the bonus room providing end game VPs for Ore to score points.

davidb3 wrote:
I don't understand where you put the first (regular tunnel) Ruby mine? You need two available tunnels to place two ruby mines, and you just used them both for the Ore mine (creating one deep tunnel); so somewhere this loop needs an additional action or additional Ruby (or a level 9 weapon) to create the additional tunnel.


He gets the extra tunnel from the ruby. The Ore Mine provides the Deep Tunnel and spending the ruby when he takes the Ruby Mine action allows him to place a regular 1-space tunnel, giving him places for both ruby mines with one action.

davidb3 wrote:
This loop is limited of course by space on the mountain side (max 3 ore mines, +3 caverns and a max of 4 Ruby mines; OR 2 ore mines, +2 caverns and 6 Ruby mines). The best case is that you could only fully use this loop twice, netting you a total of +8 points for 2 free Ruby mines (less the cost of any extra rubies you spent to place tunnel tiles). You may also be blocked if other players continually take the Ruby mine space (+imitation) first, or you find you need to spend your actions getting food for a harvest etc, so there are other ways this tactic may fall apart.

6-8 points is nice for a cheap furnishing (the guest room) [ + more if you use both actions on Urgent Wish for Children]; but there are several other furnishings and combos which might give more. It looks nice (and a good way to benefit from that room), but not a guaranteed game-winner.


I played with Aaron in the one game he described. He told us the Guest Room was over-powered and said he wouldn't take it, but by about Rd 6-7 the Guest Room was still there so he took us to show its ability... and won the game. Still, in retrospect, I think he just played the rest of the game better than we did. Anyone can perform the loop above; the Guest Room allows it to be completed with one fewer action. I think the maximum the Guest Room can be efficiently used is 4-5 times per game, maybe 3 times for Ruby Mining and twice for Wish for Children, but doing so prevents one from building caverns for bonus VP rooms so I'm not convinced yet that Guest Room is overpowered. It does save about 4-5 actions per game, but it takes a little time to get resources to build in the first place.
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David Barry
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ThePharoah wrote:
Edit: There's a loop I take with Guest Room.
Get a couple rubies(starting player or others) and the stone storage room. Then the loop proceeds like this:
Worker: Drift mining
Spend Ruby: place an intersection piece
Worker: Mine Placement, collect stone for additional victory points
Worker: Ruby mining-place a regular and deep ruby mine, get a deep mine ruby
Repeat until the board is full.


This loop should be (after getting at least two Rubies to start out, and ideally building the Ore Seam as well as Stone Storage room):

Worker: Drift mining (can save stone collected for bonus points)
Spend Ruby: place an intersection(tunnel) piece
Worker: Ore Mine Placement, collect ORE for additional victory points
Worker: Ruby mining - place a deep ruby mine, get a deep mine ruby. Spend Ruby immediately: place an intersection(tunnel) piece; and place a regular ruby mine as part of the ruby mining action.
Repeat this loopTWICE - there isn't space to do this more than twice, after which you will have two Caverns and two empty spaces in your mountain. (These could still be filled by tunnel squares, another Ore Mine and another deep Ruby mine, but there will not be room for a 5th Ruby mine).

So, the Guest room can be used to benefit from the Ruby mine placement TWICE, plus Urgent wish for children up to THREE times (if you are not blocked, can find the wood needed, and can figure out how to feed your dwarfs). In a 4+ player game, you might use the "Growth" space instead of Urgent wish for children; and perhaps use the "Extension" space if in a 7P game, (although I haven't figured out where to find the players yet for a 7P game). But yes, the Guest room would appear to give a net of three or four extra actions per game, once you subtract the action required to build the room. They are fairly good actions though.
 
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Chris Wilczewski
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I didn't realize you can interrupt an action with another action. Don't you have to execute the entire action of place ruby mine before the action of spending the ruby on a tunnel?
 
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Bryan Thunkd
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Rubies aren't an action. I think they can be used at any time.
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Grzegorz Kobiela
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alenen wrote:
I didn't realize you can interrupt an action with another action. Don't you have to execute the entire action of place ruby mine before the action of spending the ruby on a tunnel?

There is no such rule. You can spend rubies, convert food and use your tiles literally at any time (before scoring).
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Harold Coleman
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davidb3 wrote:
ThePharoah wrote:
Edit: There's a loop I take with Guest Room.
Get a couple rubies(starting player or others) and the stone storage room. Then the loop proceeds like this:
Worker: Drift mining
Spend Ruby: place an intersection piece
Worker: Mine Placement, collect stone for additional victory points
Worker: Ruby mining-place a regular and deep ruby mine, get a deep mine ruby
Repeat until the board is full.


This loop should be (after getting at least two Rubies to start out, and ideally building the Ore Seam as well as Stone Storage room):

Worker: Drift mining (can save stone collected for bonus points)
Spend Ruby: place an intersection(tunnel) piece
Worker: Ore Mine Placement, collect ORE for additional victory points
Worker: Ruby mining - place a deep ruby mine, get a deep mine ruby. Spend Ruby immediately: place an intersection(tunnel) piece; and place a regular ruby mine as part of the ruby mining action.
Repeat this loopTWICE - there isn't space to do this more than twice, after which you will have two Caverns and two empty spaces in your mountain. (These could still be filled by tunnel squares, another Ore Mine and another deep Ruby mine, but there will not be room for a 5th Ruby mine).

So, the Guest room can be used to benefit from the Ruby mine placement TWICE, plus Urgent wish for children up to THREE times (if you are not blocked, can find the wood needed, and can figure out how to feed your dwarfs). In a 4+ player game, you might use the "Growth" space instead of Urgent wish for children; and perhaps use the "Extension" space if in a 7P game, (although I haven't figured out where to find the players yet for a 7P game). But yes, the Guest room would appear to give a net of three or four extra actions per game, once you subtract the action required to build the room. They are fairly good actions though.


You have two ruby uses in your loop; you only need one. Drift Mining gives you a double tunnel/cavern tile that the Ore mine covers, which gives you a Deep Mine for the first Ruby Mine. You only need to use one ruby to add a single tunnel tile for the second ruby mine. It is possible to use the Guest Room for 3 Ruby Mine actions. Don't forget there is a dwelling that houses 2 additional family members, so you can use the Growth space twice wuth Guest Room. Granted you don't have many spaces for adding VP furnishings, but the Office Room allows you to overhang double mountain tiles, vastly increasing the possibilities and totally blowing my mind.
 
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Jacek Deimer
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hgcoleman wrote:

Drift Mining gives you a double tunnel/cavern tile that the Ore mine covers, which gives you a Deep Mine for the first Ruby Mine.


Drift mining gives you only 1 tunnel, Ore Mine requires 2 adjanced tunnels


Quote:

It is possible to use the Guest Room for 3 Ruby Mine actions. Don't forget there is a dwelling that houses 2 additional family members, so you can use the Growth space twice wuth Guest Room.


This requires 9 tunnel spaces in first place. So, you can only use Excavation/Drift Mining only once other tunnels have to be built using Rubies or expeditions.

Possible, but propably hard to achieve.

Combination with Office Room looks promising on the other hand!
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Harold Coleman
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My mistake, Jacek. Of course you need to to do Excavation/Drift Mining twice before you can place an Ore mine... unless you have a ruby in hand. In that case you could use the ruby to place a single tunnel tile next to the tunnel from E/DM and build the Ore Mine. Next turn, Take the Build Ruby Mine action to build on the Ore Mine's Deep Tunnel, gain the ruby and use it to construct another tunnel, then place a second Ruby Mine on that tunnel.

So, I agree - doing the double Ruby Mine build more than twice is difficult, requiring either the Office Room or using a lot of rubies or expeditions to create single basic tunnels. Enough of this, my brain is burning.
 
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Aaron Nessim
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This gets more out of hand if you can score the Office Room and overhand your Drift-mining tiles. I need to play more and find out.
 
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Trey Alsup
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Took the Guest room early last night in a 4 player game.

Ended up with a board with 4 ruby mines / 2 ore mines / 2 dwellings (one mixed dwelling with room for 2 animals) and the mining cave.

Final score 96 points. 2nd/3rd were 69 but I was the more experienced Agricola player.


I tracked uses of the guest room:
I took ruby mine construction twice.
Growth once
Urgent wish for Children once

4 dwarfs at the end. Office room would definitely be the next step in increasing the score of this strategy as you quickly cap your points on the mine half of the board. In fact with office room you could actually continue to expand your family and get more double use out of urgent wish for children.
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