Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
11 Posts

Tide of Iron: Stalingrad» Forums » Rules

Subject: collapsed buildings and concussive firepower rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Willem Boersma
Netherlands
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Actually always taken for granted that tanks cannot use the concussive firepower ability against COLLAPSED buildings, but it's not explictely stated in the rules. Apart from the fact that it wouldn't be logical for tanks to have this ability against what are essentially ruins -and actually also referred to like that from time to time- I guess a good case can be made for the fact that buildings and COLLAPSED buildings are two different terrain types with different characteristics.

Anyway, I'd still like an official confirmation (-;
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
bill jaffe
United States
Oakland
California
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
mbmbmbmbmb
no you can't use concussive firepower vs a collapsed building

Bill Jaffe
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hss Hss
Norway
flag msg tools
And an other related issue. If you destroy a building, is line of sight supposed to be blocked?

The reason I ask is that in the that the "gully of death" scenario, one of the objectives is to either destroy 3 of the six hexes building hexes or weaken all six. If a collapsed building blocks line of sight, how is it possible to weaken the one in the middle?



1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Willem Boersma
Netherlands
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Grand Stone wrote:
And an other related issue. If you destroy a building, is line of sight supposed to be blocked?

The reason I ask is that in the that the "gully of death" scenario, one of the objectives is to either destroy 3 of the six hexes building hexes or weaken all six. If a collapsed building blocks line of sight, how is it possible to weaken the one in the middle?





I actually noticed the same issue upon rereading the campaign scenarios(Note that I only actually playtested the 4 standard scenarios myself).

First off, I do believe collapsed buildings SHOULD block LOS. After all, when a multi-storey building collapses it will more often than not result in quite a big pile of rubble and moreover,often parts of it remain standing!

1.) Perhaps the idea would then indeed be to weaken/destroy the outermost hexes of buildings in the particular scenario? Unlikely, I suppose.

2.) It's indeed also difficult, if not impossible, to destroy level 2 building hexes with artillery and airpower cards as 6 hits are required to weaken a level 2 building and most cards do at most provide 5 attack dice. So even a level 1 building is hard to affect in this way. Of course a building still gets three "cover dice" as well.

3.) In this particluar scenario, and in general as far as multi-level buildings go, the outermost hex blocks LOS to any hexes of the same building lying beyond. This indeed makes it impossible to attack the latter, the way I read it.In itself this seems to make sense, and doesn't have to be a problem, but if the VP conditions require the weakening and/or destruction of certain building hexes, that's hard to do, if you can't see them and when your artillery and airpower cards aren't potent enough to actually harm the hex (which in the case of most buildings would be odd- the Berlin Flaktowers being an exception that springs to mind or the V2 launching site in Northern France; that is the Dome of that installation). So indeed, all this poses the problem you've just outlined above.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Willem Boersma
Netherlands
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
On a related matter. Both the Normandy and Stalingrad rule books show an example of James rolling an 8 die area attack against a building. As this cannot be a double mortar attack (8 dice are suppressive and buildings are not affected by suppressive attacks!), as there are no airpower and artillery decks currently available with such an attack strength and as far as I know cards cannot be combined as in a combined fire attack, I've always wondered where the 8 dice in the example come from. In Normandy it could still be the naval bombardment operations card, but I don't think any German warship was deployed near Stalingrad (-;

I've hardly actually ever attempted to destroy a building (as the rules have always seemed a little unnecessarily complicated to me and many scenarios do not even have rules for destructible buildings), but I have always wondered how on earth someone accumulated 8 attack dice in an area attack against a building (so NOT the squads inside it!). More importantly, that does seem to be an absolute minimum number of dice needed to stand any chance of success at detroying a building, let alone a multi-level building.

Of course you can just combine tank fire to accomplish this, but I find it odd that this will prove far more successful than artillery and/or bombing attacks...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Willem Boersma
Netherlands
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Grand Stone wrote:
And an other related issue. If you destroy a building, is line of sight supposed to be blocked?

The reason I ask is that in the that the "gully of death" scenario, one of the objectives is to either destroy 3 of the six hexes building hexes or weaken all six. If a collapsed building blocks line of sight, how is it possible to weaken the one in the middle?





I suppose the simplest solution would be to errata collapsed building terrain and say that it does NOT block LOS. Although it sounds a bit counterintuitive to me, as I explained above. Then again, as I also said above, PART of the building would remain standing, which would also mean that part would NOT, which would enable units to look "around" the collapsed building. Moreover, although the rule book clearly states that the buildings on the urban maps are significantly larger, in the Normandy expansion a collapsed building becomes -strangely enough, I might add (simply cost 1 for vehicles??), the same as rough terrain and rough terrain does not block LOS either.

Any other solution to this issue would probably only lead to more issues of its own.

Of course certain scenario specific rules could specify that (certain) collpased building hexes or all of them DO block LOS.

Just my 2 cents.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hss Hss
Norway
flag msg tools
boersma8 wrote:
Grand Stone wrote:
And an other related issue. If you destroy a building, is line of sight supposed to be blocked?

The reason I ask is that in the that the "gully of death" scenario, one of the objectives is to either destroy 3 of the six hexes building hexes or weaken all six. If a collapsed building blocks line of sight, how is it possible to weaken the one in the middle?





I suppose the simplest solution would be to errata collapsed building terrain and say that it does NOT block LOS. Although it sounds a bit counterintuitive to me, as I explained above. Then again, as I also said above, PART of the building would remain standing, which would also mean that part would NOT, which would enable units to look "around" the collapsed building. Moreover, although the rule book clearly states that the buildings on the urban maps are significantly larger, in the Normandy expansion a collapsed building becomes -strangely enough, I might add (simply cost 1 for vehicles??), the same as rough terrain and rough terrain does not block LOS either.

Any other solution to this issue would probably only lead to more issues of its own.

Of course certain scenario specific rules could specify that (certain) collpased building hexes or all of them DO block LOS.

Just my 2 cents.


For this scenario I agree that collapsed building should not block line of sight. If they do, I think it will be far to difficult for the Germans. I did a quick test to see if I could destroy the building using the two German sIG 33 and no Russians at the board. Its actually challenging. And if you are slightly unlucky, you may fail.

If you can fire at the inner hex after the outer is destroyed, you will save 1 turn of movement, and you can stay in a much better/safer position. I assume this was how it was play-tested?


The rules for destruction of buildings is fair enough. However it could use some help in the future. The main problem, its to difficult to have any effect. The introduction of weakened is a good thing. But still, far to difficult. Its also highly risky as you may get unlucky and have no effect.

Also, why should you want to destroy a building? A collapsed building effectively gives you MORE cover due to no concussion firepower, it still blocks line of sight. Killing infantry, its highly unlikely that destroying the building would have a better killing rate that simply firing at the infantry.




2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Willem Boersma
Netherlands
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Grand Stone wrote:
[q="boersma8"][q="Grand Stone"]Also, why should you want to destroy a building? A collapsed building effectively gives you MORE cover due to no concussion firepower, it still blocks line of sight. Killing infantry, its highly unlikely that destroying the building would have a better killing rate that simply firing at the infantry.






Well, I could imagine that if a building is really packed with enemy squads at different levels that it might be tempting to attempt it, but that should be a rare occurance. Secondly, as the rules currently read that squads located at other levels than the top level of a multi-storey building cannot be affected by area attacks, to get to these (if they are at least on one of the outer hexes so they can be ssen..) you may want to try and destroy the building as in its collapse the squad stand a good chance of being hurt in the process.

Finally, in the Normandy expansion destroying a building would cause the terrain to be treated as rough terrain, meaning no blocked LOS and (easily) accesible/ traversable by vehicles.in the Stalingrad expansion indeed currently those benefits do not exist as it still blocks LOS and is still impassable terrain to vehicles.

Yes, I fully agree with you that in most cases it's too difficult to destroy buildings; artillery and airpower have (almost) no effect against multi-storey buildings (even a single storey building is a long shot!) (let's say 5 attack dice against 3 cover; the most you can achieve, assuming all are hits and no single cover die succeeds, is a weakened token). And yes, even most tanks will need to combine fire to have reasonable odds. Again, a massive artillery shell or bombing carpet should actually stand at least an equal chance.

I may be mistaken, but I seem to remember that originally collapsed building terrain did not block LOS, but that it was changed along the way.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
ides of march
msg tools
Dear Willem,

I think if you check the "No Mixed Fire" rule on page 39 at the bottom of the page says "also, a mortar crew may support the concentrated attack of another mortar crew". 3 Mortars on two bases should yield 4 + 2 + 2 = 8 suppressive. Twice that amount of mortars for 8 dice to kill (N).

Mixed fire has been discussed on FFlight forum and amongst other forums with rules customization i.e. on-board artillery units, Priests/Sextons, Wespes, SU-76s, Nebelwerfers and of course the SU-122 which technically are all capable of in-direct on-board fire.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hss Hss
Norway
flag msg tools
Ides of march: that might be so. But suppressive fire doesn't actually count. You need to do regular damage. A double mortar gives you 2+2=4 firepower. So if combining 3 double mortars you could do 8 dice regular fire.

Yes it can be done, but in practice, not...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Willem Boersma
Netherlands
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Grand Stone wrote:
Ides of march: that might be so. But suppressive fire doesn't actually count. You need to do regular damage. A double mortar gives you 2+2=4 firepower. So if combining 3 double mortars you could do 8 dice regular fire.

Yes it can be done, but in practice, not...


Thanks, Hss Hss, that's exactly what i meant to say above.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.