Talarius Dunedain
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Hi,

A pretty unusual situation came up today:

Seoni has no cards remaining in her draw deck.
Merisiel fails to defeat an Ogre, so Seoni discards one card. She now has fewer cards than her hand size and will die at the end of her next turn.

On Seoni's turn she explores and finds the villain, defeats him and as all other locations are closed, the party wins the scenario.

Does the game end in victory immediately upon defeating the villain? (Seems so from the rulebook) If you have to complete the rest of the steps after defeating the villain, then technically Seoni died right after killing the Boss Monster.

What do you all think?
 
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Mark Buetow
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Rules, p.18

Quote:
If The Villain Has Nowhere to Escape to, You Win!: See After the Scenario below.
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Andrea
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The game ends instantly upon Villain defeat, and Seoni survive. Happy ending.

Edit: ... but Seoni probably wet her pants nonetheless
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Talarius Dunedain
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Malacandra wrote:
Rules, p.18

Quote:
If The Villain Has Nowhere to Escape to, You Win!: See After the Scenario below.


Yes, I saw that too; so I had a pretty good feeling we won just as she was about to expire. I wanted to double-check here just in case there was an errata or clarification I'd missed.

That'd be a pretty epic death, though. Good final scene to many a B-movie.
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Calthaer the Bard
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Well, the rulebook doesn't exactly say that the scenario ends instantly...it says you close the location first, which means you'd have to take the "When Permanently Closed" actions after defeating the villain. Then you check to see whether the villain escapes, and if he can't, you win.

I'm guessing that they'll probably clarify whether a scenario is "over instantly" in the future; it does seem kind of ambiguous.
 
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James
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It seems to me that the whole point of the game is to find and prevent the villain from escaping so that you can kill him/her, therefore in my opinion the game should be over once this is accomplished.
 
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Calthaer the Bard
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grahamj wrote:
It seems to me that the whole point of the game is to find and prevent the villain from escaping so that you can kill him/her, therefore in my opinion the game should be over once this is accomplished.


Most people agree and seem to play it that way...I'm just pointing out that it's not technically what the rulebook says to do. For most "When Closing" requirements, it probably doesn't even matter - e.g., who cares if you have to recharge a card once there's nothing left to conquer and you stand astride your enemy's corpse, letting out a yawp of victory?
 
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Andrew Warner
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It is definite that the game ends the moment you defeat the villain with nowhere for him to run without your turn continuing.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qi3u?Going-out-in-a-blaze-of-gl...
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Sweet, thanks!
 
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Calthaer wrote:
Well, the rulebook doesn't exactly say that the scenario ends instantly...it says you close the location first, which means you'd have to take the "When Permanently Closed" actions after defeating the villain. Then you check to see whether the villain escapes, and if he can't, you win.

I'm guessing that they'll probably clarify whether a scenario is "over instantly" in the future; it does seem kind of ambiguous.

Rules wrote:
If The Villain Has Nowhere to Escape to, You Win!: See After the
Scenario below.


It does say you win and it has been clarified. If you defeat the villain and it has nowhere to escape to, then you win and the scenario ends, moving to the After the Scenario part.
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Calthaer the Bard
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firedale2002 wrote:
It does say you win and it has been clarified. If you defeat the villain and it has nowhere to escape to, then you win and the scenario ends, moving to the After the Scenario part.


No, it doesn't. You need to read the rules more carefully (I've underlined the part you're overlooking):

Rules wrote:
If You Defeat the Villain, Close the Villain’s Location: You do not need to fulfill the “When Closing” requirement. Examine the location deck; if there are no additional villains in it, banish all of the cards and flip the location card over. The location is permanently closed, and the location’s “When Permanently Closed” effect is triggered. If there are villains remaining in the deck, banish everything except the remaining villains and shuffle the deck if needed; the location is not permanently closed, but it is temporarily closed, and the defeated villain cannot escape to it.


The part of the rules you chose not to quote clearly states that you need to trigger the "When Permanently Closed" effect of the location before you get to the step you quoted, which says "If the Villain has nowhere to escape to, you win!" In fact, the villain has nowhere to escape precisely because you have closed the location where he is at present (and, perhaps, have "temp-closed" the other locations). There is a conflict between what the rules say and what Vic assented to in the thread Hawkmoon269 linked to. I expect that at some point they'll clarify that. In most cases, it probably doesn't matter, as the "When Closing" effect might be trivial or nothing at all.
 
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Craig S.
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None of this really matters. The important point is that the scenario ends before anyone is required to draw cards...so you cannot die after winning.
 
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I see no inconsistency between the rulebook and Vic's ruling.

The steps for dealing with a villain, as listed in the rulebook, are:

1. Attempt to Temporarily Close Open Locations
2. Encounter the Villain
3. If You Defeat the Villain, Close the Villain’s Location
4. Check to See Whether the Villain Escapes
5. If the Villain Has Nowhere to Escape to, You Win!

Vic's ruling was pertaining to Step 5. You win instantly as soon as the Villain can't escape. You don't go on to the other parts of your turn when this happens (namely, you don't reset your hand after step 5, so your character won't die in this manner).


The part you mentioned about closing the villain's location happens in Step 3. If the location's "When Permanently Closed" effect causes you to draw a card from your empty deck, your character will die at this point, because you haven't reached step 5 yet.

I think the term "defeat the villain" may be confusing people here. "Defeating the villain", in the game's terminology, means you've rolled high enough to surpass the value of the check. You can "defeat the villain" multiple times in a scenario if he escapes one or more times. "Defeating the villain" is not the win condition. Causing the villain to have no open location to flee to is the win condition, and it's not the same thing as "defeating the villain" (although "defeating the villain" is a necessary step in achieving the win condition).
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Andrew Warner
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Through deck 3, the fact that the When Permanently Close effect would still be triggered when the Villain is defeated with nowhere to flee is moot as it relates to character death because no location yet requires you to draw a card. There are a few that say you may draw a card.

Now, there are 3 decks yet to be released, so it may come up later, but as of right now there remains no way to die when defeating the Villain with nowhere to flee.

And for right now the rule that you trigger the effects is generally an advantage to you. You get to acquire 1 of the random cards from the General Store, Goblin Fortress, or Junk Beach; banish a card to draw a random ally from the box at the Guard Tower; bnaish a blesssing to draw a random blessing from the box at the Shrine to Lamashtu; and draw a random item from the box at Turtleback Ferry.

So until we see some locations that require you to draw a card, triggering the effect at the end of the scenario is only a good thing.
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Calthaer wrote:
firedale2002 wrote:
It does say you win and it has been clarified. If you defeat the villain and it has nowhere to escape to, then you win and the scenario ends, moving to the After the Scenario part.


No, it doesn't. You need to read the rules more carefully (I've underlined the part you're overlooking):

Rules wrote:
If You Defeat the Villain, Close the Villain’s Location: You do not need to fulfill the “When Closing” requirement. Examine the location deck; if there are no additional villains in it, banish all of the cards and flip the location card over. The location is permanently closed, and the location’s “When Permanently Closed” effect is triggered. If there are villains remaining in the deck, banish everything except the remaining villains and shuffle the deck if needed; the location is not permanently closed, but it is temporarily closed, and the defeated villain cannot escape to it.


The part of the rules you chose not to quote clearly states that you need to trigger the "When Permanently Closed" effect of the location before you get to the step you quoted, which says "If the Villain has nowhere to escape to, you win!" In fact, the villain has nowhere to escape precisely because you have closed the location where he is at present (and, perhaps, have "temp-closed" the other locations). There is a conflict between what the rules say and what Vic assented to in the thread Hawkmoon269 linked to. I expect that at some point they'll clarify that. In most cases, it probably doesn't matter, as the "When Closing" effect might be trivial or nothing at all.
I concede to your point as I hadn't considered that there may be a future instance where the "When Closed" requirement can kick in a character death by forcing a hand reset or drawing a card.

The order in the book is close the location, then check to see if the villain escapes, so I'd personally assume from this point that you do have to deal with the effects of the closed location (if any) before winning.
 
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