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Subject: The rumours of Katmans demise are greatly exaggerated rss

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Kasper Lauest
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I have literally not seen a single person play a Katman deck since Second Thoughts came out. Swordsman killed Atman was the word. I myself stopped playing Katman.

Well, yesterday I went to a season 3 tournament in Copenhagen and decided to play a Katman deck. I had modified it slightly, including Test Run and Scavenge to easier get Femme Fetale into play to protect against Swordsman - just one copy of each though, I couldn't find room for more without compromising the decks main strengths.

Guess what happened? NOBODY had Swordsman in their deck. Granted I didn't play Jinteki.

Perhaps as a result, I won the tournament (my corp was the exact same NBN deck I played at the Nordic Championships three months ago).

So what's the deal. Is anybody actually playing Swordsman? Has everybody concluded that Atman and other AI-strategies were dead and then stopped playing Swordsman? Or was I just lucky yesterday?

Infact, the real threat I faced yesterday was Power Shutdown killing my Datasuckers. That card is very good indeed against Datasucker based strategies. In one game all three of my Datasuckers got killed by Power Shutdown. I still managed to win in the end by getting all three Atman and Femme Fetale in play, but it was rough.
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dan dargenio
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From what I've seen, most people have started to splash a mimic rather than play test run. I don't think too many people have claimed that katman is dead; many have just moved on to try other things, (and people trying their damnedest just to win have found Andy to be more effective anyway).
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Dave Sutcliffe
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mediohxcore wrote:
From what I've seen, most people have started to splash a mimic rather than play test run. I don't think too many people have claimed that katman is dead; many have just moved on to try other things, (and people trying their damnedest just to win have found Andy to be more effective anyway).



I never put any credence behind Swordsman being much of a threat to Atman anyway.

Atman has gone away because people found other decks to play. Serious players run Andromeda and casual players find Atman boring. I'm sure that if a good player were to run Atman they would have good success with it, just maybe not as much success as if they had played Andromeda.
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Scott Rubin
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BlueSwan wrote:
I have literally not seen a single person play a Katman deck since Second Thoughts came out. Swordsman killed Atman was the word. I myself stopped playing Katman.

Well, yesterday I went to a season 3 tournament in Copenhagen and decided to play a Katman deck. I had modified it slightly, including Test Run and Scavenge to easier get Femme Fetale into play to protect against Swordsman - just one copy of each though, I couldn't find room for more without compromising the decks main strengths.

Guess what happened? NOBODY had Swordsman in their deck. Granted I didn't play Jinteki.

Perhaps as a result, I won the tournament (my corp was the exact same NBN deck I played at the Nordic Championships three months ago).

So what's the deal. Is anybody actually playing Swordsman? Has everybody concluded that Atman and other AI-strategies were dead and then stopped playing Swordsman? Or was I just lucky yesterday?

Infact, the real threat I faced yesterday was Power Shutdown killing my Datasuckers. That card is very good indeed against Datasucker based strategies. In one game all three of my Datasuckers got killed by Power Shutdown. I still managed to win in the end by getting all three Atman and Femme Fetale in play, but it was rough.

Swordsman is dangerous, but Wraparound is the real Katman killer.
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Michael Redston
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Swordsman: 1xMimic and call it a day. or, if you're playing Parasites anyway, just insta-kill a Swordsman with SMC/Clone Chip and Datasucker counters.
Wraparound: 1xInti to be SMC'd when needed. 'nuff said.
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Christopher MacLeod
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I have played against a couple Katman decks on OCTGN recently so it's not completely gone.

Swordsman actually doesn't do anything in that matchup - early on they'll facecheck it with no breaker and just take 1 net damage (whatever), and any time later they install or tutor for Mimic. Mimic is a great solution to Swordsman and also lets you avoid needing a 0 Atman to deal with Rototurret.




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Mad Scientist Philip von Doomula
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I don't think Swordsman is the end all for Katman especially with how easily they can import Parasites and install them at instant speed.
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Colin Thomas
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Magicdave wrote:
mediohxcore wrote:
From what I've seen, most people have started to splash a mimic rather than play test run. I don't think too many people have claimed that katman is dead; many have just moved on to try other things, (and people trying their damnedest just to win have found Andy to be more effective anyway).



I never put any credence behind Swordsman being much of a threat to Atman anyway.

Atman has gone away because people found other decks to play. Serious players run Andromeda and casual players find Atman boring. I'm sure that if a good player were to run Atman they would have good success with it, just maybe not as much success as if they had played Andromeda.


I actually play a Andy-atman deck and it does really well. In a recent tournament, I went 3-1 with it (my 1 loss was due to bone-headed play). I have 3 fairies, 2 femme fatale, and 1-2 Crypsis as support. Atman keeps me from losing steam going into the late game - my late game runs rarely net out to more than 4 credits or so.
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Dave Sutcliffe
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Kiv6 wrote:
I have played against a couple Katman decks on OCTGN recently so it's not completely gone.


Let's not forget that Atman was the 2nd most common deck in the Worlds Top 32, so of course it's still pottering around. It was just a looooong way behind Andromeda.
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Arto H
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I feel there still isn't a big metagame for Netrunner and I still see many random decks most of time. But my thoughts about Katman is that competetive players find Andy better and casuals just play quite random decks because they find deck archetypes boring.
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Kasper Lauest
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Magicdave wrote:
Kiv6 wrote:
I have played against a couple Katman decks on OCTGN recently so it's not completely gone.


Let's not forget that Atman was the 2nd most common deck in the Worlds Top 32, so of course it's still pottering around. It was just a looooong way behind Andromeda.

Yeah, but Worlds was before Second Thoughts.
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Dave Sutcliffe
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BlueSwan wrote:
Magicdave wrote:
Kiv6 wrote:
I have played against a couple Katman decks on OCTGN recently so it's not completely gone.


Let's not forget that Atman was the 2nd most common deck in the Worlds Top 32, so of course it's still pottering around. It was just a looooong way behind Andromeda.

Yeah, but Worlds was before Second Thoughts.


But Swordsman isn't actually a threat, and never was. Most Atman decks already ran Femme as a built-in answer to Swordsman and adding Mimic to the deck took 1 influence to just be double-sure that the Jinteki Ice nobody was playing anyway wasn't a problem.

Wraparound is slightly more awkward because the best answer is to fit in Corroder (which is more influence) or Inti (which is rubbish and just clogs up MU). More importantly Wraparound isn't Jinteki, which means it will be played more often.
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Kasper Lauest
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Magicdave wrote:
But Swordsman isn't actually a threat, and never was. Most Atman decks already ran Femme as a built-in answer to Swordsman and adding Mimic to the deck took 1 influence to just be double-sure that the Jinteki Ice nobody was playing anyway wasn't a problem.

Not sure I agree. I'm pretty strapped for influence because I insist on running three Desperados. If I include Mimic I would have to cut either a Femme (which is an awesome troubleshooter), a parasite (unthinkable!!) or a Desperado (which would suck). This deck runs a LOT so those Desperados are really nice and three is just so much better than two because you want them out turn 1 (or very soon thereafter).

I guess the deck works without Desperados, but surely not as well.
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Dave Sutcliffe
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BlueSwan wrote:
Magicdave wrote:
But Swordsman isn't actually a threat, and never was. Most Atman decks already ran Femme as a built-in answer to Swordsman and adding Mimic to the deck took 1 influence to just be double-sure that the Jinteki Ice nobody was playing anyway wasn't a problem.

Not sure I agree. I'm pretty strapped for influence because I insist on running three Desperados. If I include Mimic I would have to cut either a Femme (which is an awesome troubleshooter), a parasite (unthinkable!!) or a Desperado (which would suck). This deck runs a LOT so those Desperados are really nice and three is just so much better than two because you want them out turn 1 (or very soon thereafter).

I guess the deck works without Desperados, but surely not as well.


It depends on whether you think the deck works better with only 2 Desperado or with 0 Atman cos they got destroyed by Swordsman.
;-)

Less facetiously - you've already got Femme in the deck that handles Swordsman. And if you do and can't afford the Influence for Mimic then Pipeline is actually a fair in-faction answer - if you have a Datasucker counter it costs the same to break Swordsman as Mimic does.
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Chris Hinkes
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If you've got a few Datasucker tokens, you can also just nuke Swordsman mid-run with your Parasite.
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R. Fetterkey
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Katman is still strong, but everyone knows about it now. At one point it was probably the best Runner deck because people hadn't modified their decklists to compensate, but now it's a merely good.

The fact that most Katman players spend 9 influence on Desperado (lol) is the main factor holding the deck back from seeing greater success, at least IMO.
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fetterkey wrote:
Katman is still strong, but everyone knows about it now. At one point it was probably the best Runner deck because people hadn't modified their decklists to compensate, but now it's a merely good.

The fact that most Katman players spend 9 influence on Desperado (lol) is the main factor holding the deck back from seeing greater success, at least IMO.


It's conceivable that Spinal Modem would be as effective, freeing up 3 influence.
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David Jackman
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I'm really kind of shocked that people dont just play kate with a good (non-ai) breaker suite more often. Its a harder deck to play, and takes some skill, but can be just as aggressive with less weird stuff that screws you over.

I agree with the general sentiment though - katman is still good - probably will be for a while. But people know how to play around her now, especially in a competitive environment. wraparound will see a lot more play than swordsman as well.
 
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Matthew Guze
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I used to play an Exile Atman deck (it got 5th at the Seattle Plugged In, and it would probably still do well if I continued to play it), and 2 Desperado was fine. It's a great card, but you don't need three of them. I'd rather just have two (you'll likely get it at some point anyway), and there are better things you can do with that three influence.

That deck didn't incorporate any Spin Cycle cards at all and I don't see that changing until Wraparound comes out, where I'd probably throw in a 1x Inti just to take care of it.

IMO the real Katman killer are the Weyland glacier decks that just put out a lot of ETR ice, and throw in Ash and Corporate Troubleshooter. That's what scares me the most.

Saan wrote:
I'm really kind of shocked that people dont just play kate with a good (non-ai) breaker suite more often. Its a harder deck to play, and takes some skill, but can be just as aggressive with less weird stuff that screws you over.


One experiment I was playing around with for a bit was a Kate deck that used the core Anarch breakers (Corroder, Mimic, Yog) without Datasucker, and just used Dinosaurus, Ice Carver, and Personal Touch to take care of the high strength ice. I entered it into a tournament and it's definitely capable of winning games, though it still needs some work. It's a fun deck to play, though.
 
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Gregory Pettigrew
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talking_chicken wrote:
That deck didn't incorporate any Spin Cycle cards at all and I don't see that changing until Wraparound comes out, where I'd probably throw in a 1x Inti just to take care of it.


Inti's from Creation & Control.
 
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David Jackman
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talking_chicken wrote:
I used to play an Exile Atman deck (it got 5th at the Seattle Plugged In, and it would probably still do well if I continued to play it), and 2 Desperado was fine. It's a great card, but you don't need three of them. I'd rather just have two (you'll likely get it at some point anyway), and there are better things you can do with that three influence.

That deck didn't incorporate any Spin Cycle cards at all and I don't see that changing until Wraparound comes out, where I'd probably throw in a 1x Inti just to take care of it.

IMO the real Katman killer are the Weyland glacier decks that just put out a lot of ETR ice, and throw in Ash and Corporate Troubleshooter. That's what scares me the most.

Saan wrote:
I'm really kind of shocked that people dont just play kate with a good (non-ai) breaker suite more often. Its a harder deck to play, and takes some skill, but can be just as aggressive with less weird stuff that screws you over.


One experiment I was playing around with for a bit was a Kate deck that used the core Anarch breakers (Corroder, Mimic, Yog) without Datasucker, and just used Dinosaurus, Ice Carver, and Personal Touch to take care of the high strength ice. I entered it into a tournament and it's definitely capable of winning games, though it still needs some work. It's a fun deck to play, though.

Been playing a toolbox kate deck that has been absolutely slaughtering. Its hard to play, to some degree, and focuses more on remotes than any deck ive played. Its a toolbox deck in that it runs toolbox and in that it has 19 programs, most of which are 1-offs. The only exceptions being 2x corroder, 3x MO and 2x femme, if i remember right.

Its hard to balance between early game pressure and getting toolbox/MO out, but once you do its fairly unstoppable.

 
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Michael Redston
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gumOnShoe wrote:
It's conceivable that Spinal Modem would be as effective, freeing up 3 influence.

That actually sounds fairly intriguing. Makes me want to playtest.
 
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Matthew Guze
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etherial wrote:
talking_chicken wrote:
That deck didn't incorporate any Spin Cycle cards at all and I don't see that changing until Wraparound comes out, where I'd probably throw in a 1x Inti just to take care of it.


Inti's from Creation & Control.


Thanks for the catch. Probably should have reworded what I said. The deck hasn't had to adjust for any spin cycle cards since its creation, and has mostly been left unchanged since before the non-GenCon release of Opening Moves. Inti should take care of Wraparound nicely, though.
 
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Stan Adecla
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talking_chicken wrote:
Thanks for the catch. Probably should have reworded what I said. The deck hasn't had to adjust for any spin cycle cards since its creation, and has mostly been left unchanged since before the non-GenCon release of Opening Moves. Inti should take care of Wraparound nicely, though.


Yeah, but now you have a terrible fracter on the table taking up space so that KAtman doesn't have to deal with a 2C, 7Str barrier. The deck already has to play with loads of precision, and once the player feels the need to overwrite the Inti, a Wraparound might pop up again. Loads of gamesmanship here that I think the runner is probably going to lose.
 
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Jacek Wieszaczewski
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I'm using Doppelganger in my Katman deck and it works really good - quite often allowing me to spend no click on Datasucker charging archives runs. My influence package is 2x Doppelganger, 3x Datasucker, a Femme, a Mimic, a Parasite, a Djinn, a Crescentus and a Stimhack.
 
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