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Subject: 5th player ? rss

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Mark Turner
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Hi...

I am tempted to back this game, it looks really interesting. Also, any game which offers free shipping to the UK deserves a tip of the hat from me. Nice one.

My question is the 4 vs 5 player version. My instinct is that the 4 player version is a better deal, seeing as the 5 player version does not give much more in the way of components.

My question is how is the game optimized? Chaos in the Old World, for example, is perfect at 4 and unravels a little at 5... Meaning you can get the base game and enjoy the best it has to offer.

Does Chaosium work best with the 4 player limit? Or is this actually a 5 player game?
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mks
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this seem like a question to the designer / playtesters. as far as I understand, the 5th player game would require several hyperspeed tokens (which can be substituted with anything) and a different repartition of the cards between envelopes and player hands for the start of the game, therefore you can always play this way minding that every player would have fewer turns as a result. I worry that there might be some more adjustments necessary for the 5player game to be not too chaotic.
 
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Ben Rubinstein

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I'm on board with you here. I usually game with 5, and am intrigued by this game. However, $25 more for a 5th player's components does seem like a sickening money-grab.

As it's a lighter game that's more reliant on social interaction/deduction I'm not quite as concerned with optimized balance (I hear ya on the Chaos 4/5 player issue).
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Joey V

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MrMT wrote:
Hi...

I am tempted to back this game, it looks really interesting. Also, any game which offers free shipping to the UK deserves a tip of the hat from me. Nice one.

My question is how is the game optimized? Chaos in the Old World, for example, is perfect at 4 and unravels a little at 5... Meaning you can get the base game and enjoy the best it has to offer.

Does Chaosium work best with the 4 player limit? Or is this actually a 5 player game?


Thanks for the comment!

The game was carefully balanced for 2-4 players. It is a slightly different game with 5 players because it is harder to hide things on planets (since you have four opponents exploring 10 planets). Adding more planets makes it too hard to remember where you left critical items.

The additional cards for the 5th player are new cards formulated to offer increased control in this increasingly chaotic universe. I wanted players to first try the game at 2-4 players and understand the card interactions prior to experiencing the more challenging 5th player game.

-joey
 
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Joey V

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epilepticemu wrote:
intrigued by this game. However, $25 more for a 5th player's components does seem like a sickening money-grab.


Unfortunately Kickstarter exclusive miniatures (in the higher tier) are expensive because we're only making a small run for people who like exclusive perks. we can't sell the bonus stuff later to reduce costs, so that's why prices get hugely inflated for the exclusives. just a reality of producing only a couple hundred miniatures but still having to make the molds. hope that helps explain shadiness. truth is there isn't really any money in making board games-- most of the industry keeps their day job. so the higher tier helps offset the tiny profit margin of the lower tiers and then the game can actually be produced.

We are working in the next day to announce a solution for people who want more cards to be able to play 5th player without getting the extra mini.
We'll make the announcement on our Chaosmos page and also on the KS page.
epilepticemu wrote:

As it's a lighter game that's more reliant on social interaction/deduction I'm not quite as concerned with optimized balance (I hear ya on the Chaos 4/5 player issue).


Chaosmos can be played as a lighter game I guess, but it has a lot of strategic depth. Casual gamers will likely get a hard lesson playing against someone who takes it more seriously. There's a randomization to the cards at the beginning, but after that it is almost all strategy. Even the dice have a very low spread.

It's interesting to brand a game like this because it appeals to different gamers. We made our Kickstarter video simple and fun, but I'm uploading some strategy-related videos to youtube today for the BGG crowd.

Youtube videos with strategy tips (frequent updates)
http://www.youtube.com/MirrorBoxGames

UndeadViking Review
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86qr7pieayc
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Sam Leung
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Cheap solution for the 'KS exclusive minis' price issue:

Sell them later at a different color? If I can have a fifth different player, I really don't think I mind the whole world having it.

This doesn't look like a Pokemon kinda game. Better yet, ask the feed back of the backers on the update?

Would u like a general add-on for 10 bucks or something pointlessly exclusive for 30?

Always feel that components that add to gameplay shouldn't be exclusive...
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Joey V

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Skinnyspartan wrote:
Cheap solution for the 'KS exclusive minis' price issue:

Sell them later at a different color? If I can have a fifth different player, I really don't think I mind the whole world having it.

This doesn't look like a Pokemon kinda game. Better yet, ask the feed back of the backers on the update?

Would u like a general add-on for 10 bucks or something pointlessly exclusive for 30?

Always feel that components that add to gameplay shouldn't be exclusive...


Great feedback. As you alluded, most likely our higher tier backers would not be offended if we sold the cards separately. We may have a better solution than that, however. We'll post to the backers soon with another update. The base game is our perfect set of aliens and what we consider the perfect number of players (2-4) and card-set, so no one should feel like any higher tier is a critical part of the gameplay experience. I'm not sure if you are a backer or not, but feel free to contribute to the discussion on the KS comments thread. If you want to be a part of the discussion I'd be happy to pay the dollar KS requires for you to post comments.
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I think the "needle in the haystack" feeling would be dampened slightly with the addition of a 5th player. I imagined it would have to be accompanied with a denser or larger map size to keep the same feeling at 5 players.

It is the reason why I'm not willing to pay 20+ more for a 5th player. It'd be nice to have, but not at that steep a price and not for an arguably worse experience.

Plus, the source material had 4 players... haha.


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Joey V

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jakusotsu wrote:
I think the "needle in the haystack" feeling would be dampened slightly with the addition of a 5th player. I imagined it would have to be accompanied with a denser or larger map size to keep the same feeling at 5 players.


It might seem difficult to find the Ovoid, but making it harder to hide would probably be less fun for the player hiding it, wouldn't it?

I've been told by many playtesters that the game is balanced well, in that most of the time every player figures out where the Ovoid is, or actually SEES it at some point. Vaults are transparent, so when you land on a vaulted planet, you can look inside and find the Ovoid, but not be able to take it without a key. So that aspect works well. Also, when you beat a player in combat, it is definitely not a given that you would take the Ovoid, since it would weaken you in combat by filling up your hand. So many players will see the Ovoid and try to secretly trace where it's going.
 
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Sam Leung
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cannibalkid wrote:
Skinnyspartan wrote:
Cheap solution for the 'KS exclusive minis' price issue:

Sell them later at a different color? If I can have a fifth different player, I really don't think I mind the whole world having it.

This doesn't look like a Pokemon kinda game. Better yet, ask the feed back of the backers on the update?

Would u like a general add-on for 10 bucks or something pointlessly exclusive for 30?

Always feel that components that add to gameplay shouldn't be exclusive...


Great feedback. As you alluded, most likely our higher tier backers would not be offended if we sold the cards separately. We may have a better solution than that, however. We'll post to the backers soon with another update. The base game is our perfect set of aliens and what we consider the perfect number of players (2-4) and card-set, so no one should feel like any higher tier is a critical part of the gameplay experience. I'm not sure if you are a backer or not, but feel free to contribute to the discussion on the KS comments thread. If you want to be a part of the discussion I'd be happy to pay the dollar KS requires for you to post comments.


Thanks for the offer. I was looking at this game and it seems absolutely great for my taste. If the balance was made to be 4, I would stick with it but still welcome different aliens for variety.

Anyways, see u on the KS thread!

Sam
 
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Ben Rubinstein

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cannibalkid wrote:
truth is there isn't really any money in making board games--most of the industry keeps their day job.


Sorry, my comment was too harsh in regard to the cost for the 5th player. I understand that you're not trying to scam people.
 
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Greg R.
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Ok, I'm not completely agreeing with the "money-grab" sentiment but riddle me this, Im paying $60 + $30 if I want the 5th player making a grand total of $90. The retailer tier gets essentially 4 copies for game and 4-5th player exclusives for $120.

$90 X 4 = $360 That's a $240 discount for retailers.

For some reason this doesn't settle well with me. If these are KS exclusive why are retailers even offered them? Also, retailer are getting three games to sell with the 5th player and their cost is $40 per game. Yes, I understand business thank you. Retailers will jack up the price simply because they got the exclusive 5th player on these copies. Or worse, they'll sell them separately for a $30-$40 a pop.

Personally, I probably won't use the 5th player EVER, but it would be nice to have in case the situation arose. I guess don't understand why this couldn't be a stretch goal.

Ok, I've said my piece.
/END RANT
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Mark Turner
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The retailer-only category is discriminatory, for sure... and doesn't sit well with the idea that ks is a crowd sourcing site for artists and craftspeople to raise money with individuals and hobby clubs who would love to help realise creative visions.

But ks hasn't been that for a while now. It's a preorder store, without guarantees, which you support at your own risk. In return for your payment you may or may not get the item, and may or may not get it within the promised timeline. Most likely, you will get it after stores start selling it to their customers, and you will pay more for it. The difference is, you may or may not get an exclusive item that may or may not retain its exclusivity for a few months.

This pricing model takes it a step further, making it simultaneously a retail and wholesale store. One assumes the special deal for retailers is a hook to win over potential retail clients. A sweetener, loss leader, what have you.

When people put aside quaint notions that ks is a creative community, and understand that its a 'buy at your own peril' pre order store, which in general delivers the items you order after everyone else gets them for cheaper, then all these elements of a fair deal, feeling right etc tend to fade away.

It's a sales pitch to buy something now, for possible delivery in 10 months.

On the plus side, you can gain some satisfaction in putting some money in the hat of some enthusiastic young entrepreneurs who, by all accounts, have created a fun and innovative game.
 
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Greg R.
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MrMT wrote:
..which in general delivers the items you order after everyone else gets them for cheaper..


I guess I'm lucky because I've never gotten a backed game after it was available by retail stores, always before.

Also, I don't mind paying more for a "pre-order", as you say, on KS because most of the time I'm getting exclusives and I get it before retail. I've backed over 30 projects and have only been disappointed by one campaign.
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Matthew Austin
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I apologize if we gave the impression here on BGG that the bonus cards are a Kickstarter exclusive - they are not.

The bonus cards are limited edition, as described on our Kickstarter page, which means we don't plan to sell them separately to the public at this time. We do, however, plan to offer them as promos for conventions, contests, etc.

The only exclusive reward we offer is the Mor'ls the Mimic bonus alien, whose power is to mimic other alien powers. This was done intentionally so players wouldn't feel like they're being cheated out of an essential alien power.

Neither Mor'ls the Mimic nor these specific bonus cards are necessary to play with a 5th player, and we're definitely open to supporting 5 players in the future via an expansion or other cards. It's very clear from our feedback so far that backers want to play with more players, and we don't want to deny them that chance.
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Ernie Barrett
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TurquoiseKnight wrote:
Ok, I'm not completely agreeing with the "money-grab" sentiment but riddle me this, Im paying $60 + $30 if I want the 5th player making a grand total of $90. The retailer tier gets essentially 4 copies for game and 4-5th player exclusives for $120.

$90 X 4 = $360 That's a $240 discount for retailers.



For what its worth, the retailer copies do not include the Mo'rls Alien mini and stat card. Just the extra cards and tokens needed for the fifth player. Which I dont understand why they arent available as an add on for people that dont want to pay an outrageous price for a single alien mini. The cards and token dont cost much to make and the large cost is/was suppose to be because the mini is limited edition and only available for kickstarters, so not much quantity to help offset the initial mold costs etc.
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Greg R.
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ErnieB wrote:
TurquoiseKnight wrote:
Ok, I'm not completely agreeing with the "money-grab" sentiment but riddle me this, Im paying $60 + $30 if I want the 5th player making a grand total of $90. The retailer tier gets essentially 4 copies for game and 4-5th player exclusives for $120.

$90 X 4 = $360 That's a $240 discount for retailers.



For what its worth, the retailer copies do not include the Mo'rls Alien mini and stat card. Just the extra cards and tokens needed for the fifth player. Which I dont understand why they arent available as an add on for people that dont want to pay an outrageous price for a single alien mini. The cards and token dont cost much to make and the large cost is/was suppose to be because the mini is limited edition and only available for kickstarters, so not much quantity to help offset the initial mold costs etc.


Ah, thanks for the clarification.
I agree with your statement about bonus cards.
 
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Matthew Austin
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ErnieB wrote:
I dont understand why they arent available as an add on for people that dont want to pay an outrageous price for a single alien mini. The cards and token dont cost much to make and the large cost is/was suppose to be because the mini is limited edition and only available for kickstarters, so not much quantity to help offset the initial mold costs etc.


We're currently working on a solution to this issue.

On the one hand, we want to make everyone feel like they can play with 5 players if they want to (though we still recommend 2-4 as the optimal number).

On the other hand, we do not want to alienate our Master of the New Universe backers by taking something special to them, the unique bonus cards, and giving them to everyone.

Our solution to this will be posted in an update within the next few days. Thank you for your patience while we figure out how to make everyone happy.
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Mark Turner
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gabo2007 wrote:
ErnieB wrote:
I dont understand why they arent available as an add on for people that dont want to pay an outrageous price for a single alien mini. The cards and token dont cost much to make and the large cost is/was suppose to be because the mini is limited edition and only available for kickstarters, so not much quantity to help offset the initial mold costs etc.


We're currently working on a solution to this issue.

On the one hand, we want to make everyone feel like they can play with 5 players if they want to (though we still recommend 2-4 as the optimal number).

On the other hand, we do not want to alienate our Master of the New Universe backers by taking something special to them, the unique bonus cards, and giving them to everyone.

Our solution to this will be posted in an update within the next few days. Thank you for your patience while we figure out how to make everyone happy. :)


No one has actually paid anything yet, so I would not overly worry about alienating any one group yet... They can still change their level. That said, obviously you don't want to jeopardize the ks... It's a calculation as to what will get more backers.

Honestly, for my part, if you guys say the game is balanced for 2-4, and not for 5, that is very much all I needed to hear. I feel no need to force an extra player if it isn't optimized for that... My concern was whether this was in fact a 5 player game for which only some of the parts were on offer in the core set. That concern has been allayed.

 
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Matthew Austin
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Hi everyone,

We just sent out an update for Chaosmos where we address the 5th player questions many people have had. In short, we still recommend only 2-4 players, but the base game will ship with the token components needed for a fifth player.

We're also offering a $10 add-on for an extra copy of the 70 card equipment deck, which players can use to customize their decks (and add cards for 5 player play, if they choose).

Thank you all for the feedback and suggestions, which drove this decision. Our goal is to engage with the community to improve Chaosmos, and I hope this new option answers a lot of the questions people have.

Update Link: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ecc/chaosmos-as-the-univ...
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