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Subject: Strongest fleet versus a Federation United Strike Force? rss

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Jonathan M D Thomas
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So with all the Fed USF's rolling around, lets discuss the best option for taking one down.
 
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Michael Ptak
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Klingons flying in formation with their own Unified Strike Force, Martok, and focus-firing. As a Fed player I can tell you I don't like having the lowest relative attack strength in the game, and many of our ships are squishy.
 
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C. E. Freeman
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jmdt784 wrote:
So with all the Fed USF's rolling around, lets discuss the best option for taking one down.


February.
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Jonas Albrecht
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jmdt784 wrote:
So with all the Fed USF's rolling around, lets discuss the best option for taking one down.


Picard and Dukat on the Kraxon and Negh'var. Spock, Boheeka, Counterstrike, Konmel, Strike Force, and a good Flagship.
 
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Ted Kay
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The best two options seem to be action denial and simply flying better.

Either using upgrades like Positron Beam or Ferengi EM Pulse to hand out Auxiliary Power Tokens really limits a typical heavy Federation ship's maneuverability and/or it's action economy. Having 5 actions a round is useless if their ships are ineligible to take any. It also means any upgrade that requires an action to use is dead weight that round. And let's not forget that even the threat of being Aux'd at the wrong moment will make any seasoned captain second guess his choice of maneuvers.

The other option with action denial is to simply take lower initiative captains and try to move to intercept and cause the opponent's ship to collide. It doesn't stick like an APT but it is as effective, and they'll be at close range to boot for firing purposes.

The other major factor to take into account is the maneuverability of their ships. There are few Federation ships that can take white hard turns, and the ones that can (Miranda, Defiant, Nebula) are generally a rarity in builds that call for two heavily loaded ships with all the trimmings, either because of their relative frailty or lack of desired upgrade slots. They will be at a disadvantage when trying to turn around the most, and even simple hard turns cause them trouble without significant investment to mitigate this problem.

Make sure your ships can turn easier, come about, and generally can outperform them in turning tight to keep them in your firing arc while keeping out of theirs. If you can, minimize the rounds they have to fire on you before you disengage from firing range, to regroup and come around for another round or two of quick firing.

Finally, leveraging more ships may provide additional firepower, at the cost of some efficiency. With United Force, a three ship build should be able to hit hard and often and have some staying power to it. This seems on paper to be the optimal amount of ships to field, four being rather flimsy and two being too heavily laden down.
 
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Kevin Smith
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I've been playing Fed pure forces in the OPs, but have been playing a few games lately using Klingon pure forces. I didn't have any luck using a four ship swarm, but the following has seemed to be effective:

Negh'Var (28)
Martok (6)
Drex (4)
Defense Condition One (5)
Total (43)

Vor'Cha (26)
Gowron (4)
Kerla (2)
Total (32)

Vor'Cha (26)
Generic (0)
N'Garen (4)
Total (30)

Command Tokens (5)
United Force (0)

Kevin

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Xander Fulton
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My eyebrows raise, as I have no idea how a Fed list is a challenge to beat...

I mean...competitive? Sure, no doubt - as of the December releases, I think all four factions can be COMPETITIVE (and the February release locks that in, IMHO).

But so hard to beat they need their own thread?

ROFLno.

A named and generic Vor'Cha with Advanced Weapons System? (Add Synon, Alexander, etc from there)

A named and generic Valdore with Romulan Tactical Officer? (Add Toreth with Massacre, Jarok with counterattack...use once, disable, discard for immunity, etc)

Dominion with Dukat on a Keldon, Breen, Kraxon??

Geeeeez...so many possibilities.

The Feds are solid, no doubt. But hardly overwhelming...
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Nova Cat
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I am currently experimenting with trying to make 2-ship Feds work (without the Admiral's Orders, because it's for February), and I have to say, my biggest concern is any kind of front-loaded Klingon force. A BoF Ch'Tang will ruin anyone's day, and I'm not convinced that a Federation force can take it down before it shoots, or come out the other side of it intact.
 
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Dan Evans
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Novacat wrote:
I am currently experimenting with trying to make 2-ship Feds work (without the Admiral's Orders, because it's for February), and I have to say, my biggest concern is any kind of front-loaded Klingon force. A BoF Ch'Tang will ruin anyone's day, and I'm not convinced that a Federation force can take it down before it shoots, or come out the other side of it intact.


Miles O'brian from the Starter set handles this nicely. Or use Dax to get out of their arcs.
 
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charles skrobis
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Well, there are lists of options, it really depends on which you'd prefer.

The most straight forward is to take advanced weapon system, and use it to stay cloaked to deny target locks, given that their torpedoes and massive arcs for them is what makes them the most threatening.

Now, if you want to get through kirk and/or piccard always having initiative and elite talents, chang is great for disabling them.

Now here's the real secret that people haven't realized yet.
Klingon boarding party is amazing against a federation 2 ship build.

When you look at the excelsior with piccard and his elite talent fully loaded with all the options, it really wrecks their day if you disable that talent, the 3 crew, and his torpedoes in 1 action. Especially cause he has to spend so much to rebuild the crew synergy that really makes the ship crazy, while you're attacking him to force his choices.

The last big thing is to avoid range 1 if at all possible. I can't tell you how many times I've watched the enterprise-d take a scan and a battle stations before engage to range 1 and throw a 7 die primary weapon attack with valtane re-rolls before the battle station convert to hits at skill 9 firing, and then Martok's negh'var disappears before he even gets to fire back regardless of his attack buff options.
 
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jonathan kipps-bolton
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the main problem surely is overcoming the alpha.

Kirk and picard as well as initiative will mean they always shoot first.

So if you want to full alpha back you have to be able to withstand a heavy assault

Boarding party is hard to pull off if they're cloaked and still have shields up
 
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Henry Durand
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jiffk wrote:
Kirk and picard as well as initiative will mean they always shoot first.


Not always, I've had success using Martok (9) in a 99 point fleet to gain initiative, and of source using BoF. Of course, Martok (9) is an LE prize, but it really messes with Fed players when they realize they don't have initiative. Worth it just to see their faces.
 
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Some Guy
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Easy for me our TO and local gaming club banned United Force. I agree with his ruling pure faction ships are not enough of a penalty for the free 10 points. Considering that flagships cause a ship to become dual faction.
 
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Will Holsclaw
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eldurand wrote:
jiffk wrote:
Kirk and picard as well as initiative will mean they always shoot first.


Not always, I've had success using Martok (9) in a 99 point fleet to gain initiative, and of source using BoF. Of course, Martok (9) is an LE prize, but it really messes with Fed players when they realize they don't have initiative. Worth it just to see their faces.


I'm really afraid a lot of people are missing a chance at shots because they don't remember the Simultaneous Firing Rule. Martok9 at 99 points gets you initiative, maybe, but apart from the possibility of bumping your enemy, there's little advantage to that. Even if he kills a ship with Picard, Picard still shoots back, just as Martok (in a 100 pt build) would shoot back against Picard if Picard had killed him.

Initiative seems to be the most overrated goal in many people's meta, simply because people aren't remembering the basic rules of the game.
 
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Will Holsclaw
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XanderF wrote:
My eyebrows raise, as I have no idea how a Fed list is a challenge to beat...

I mean...competitive? Sure, no doubt - as of the December releases, I think all four factions can be COMPETITIVE (and the February release locks that in, IMHO).

But so hard to beat they need their own thread?

ROFLno.

A named and generic Vor'Cha with Advanced Weapons System? (Add Synon, Alexander, etc from there)

A named and generic Valdore with Romulan Tactical Officer? (Add Toreth with Massacre, Jarok with counterattack...use once, disable, discard for immunity, etc)

Dominion with Dukat on a Keldon, Breen, Kraxon??

Geeeeez...so many possibilities.

The Feds are solid, no doubt. But hardly overwhelming...


1) As a Fed player, I agree the Feds are (and really have always been) competitive.

2) I don't think the OP or anyone else here is calling them unbeatable. It does seem however that the overall meta is beginning to favor Fed builds with United Strike Force (not without reason), and only a foolish player wouldn't try to anticipate facing them in their build choices.
 
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Henry Durand
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Illyth wrote:
eldurand wrote:
jiffk wrote:
Kirk and picard as well as initiative will mean they always shoot first.


Not always, I've had success using Martok (9) in a 99 point fleet to gain initiative, and of source using BoF. Of course, Martok (9) is an LE prize, but it really messes with Fed players when they realize they don't have initiative. Worth it just to see their faces.


I'm really afraid a lot of people are missing a chance at shots because they don't remember the Simultaneous Firing Rule. Martok9 at 99 points gets you initiative, maybe, but apart from the possibility of bumping your enemy, there's little advantage to that. Even if he kills a ship with Picard, Picard still shoots back, just as Martok (in a 100 pt build) would shoot back against Picard if Picard had killed him.

Initiative seems to be the most overrated goal in many people's meta, simply because people aren't remembering the basic rules of the game.


Absolutely, but when dishing out an 11 die attack there's plenty of opportunity for crits to get through, and their effects take place immediately. All things being equal, I'd still rather have initiative than not have it.
 
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Trueflight Silverwing
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Rune Stonegrinder wrote:
Easy for me our TO and local gaming club banned United Force. I agree with his ruling pure faction ships are not enough of a penalty for the free 10 points. Considering that flagships cause a ship to become dual faction.

You banned something that can only be used for January anyway? That seems kind of overkill. How about learning to adapt? The whole point of the Admiral's Orders was to get people to try new builds and play with different styles. Banning it just proves that your player base is too single minded to learn to cope with new things.
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Ted Kay
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I think the point here wasn't too critique the Orders but to develop strategies against a specific prevalent build type that uses them.

No one is suggesting that the Orders are mandatory. They're supposed to be a voluntary support feature if a TO wants to use them in his event. But to simply say "Don't use them." does not help anyone who is here to discuss strategy in regards to an environment where they are explicitly allowed.

I do think some lists lend themselves to dual faction nicely. Koranak with Independent Romulan flagship and ReliantKhan with Boheeka for the same cost as Dukat is a pretty heavy hitter, especially against a cloaked Defiant which can't modify away the converted battle stations crits. Skill 8 Dominion moves after almost anything, too.
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Some Guy
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Your focuing on the negative. I never said I banned it, I just said I agreed with it, I used to play pure Klingons so the card would only help me, klingons with free energy disapator. Stupid powerful glad I refuse to be "that guy". Of the 3 stores I play at only one store banned it. Alot of people there only want to play mixed fleets so it left them at a disadvantage and the TO/storeowner said no. They do frequently change there fleets but they're still mixed

I only agreed with his ruling on the basis that pure faction ships is not anyway a negative drawback for a free 10 points. Which was a point I wanted to make. NOT that banning it was the best idea.

Ive beat the Feds 1st turn up in your face, Picard-Khan (over used captian combo) and crazy torpedo list with united force and Strike force. With Cardassians no-less and with only strike force.

As for strategy:
Cards that made the game: Independent Free evade Flagship + Captured Intelligence + cloaked, and Gul Evek + Cloaked.

walked away 1st turn with only 1 hit, 1 crit (minor explosion no extra damage) on flagship. I put a hurtin on Picard no shields.. antiphroton scans anyone?

 
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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Wow, this discussion didn't go the way I expected. I should have typed more, but I got a phone call.

I don't think Fed USF's are OP. I don't think anything in the game is OP. I also have few problems defeating the feds in general (stupid reverse cost me a game or 2 when I first started playing. I don't make those mistakes again.) All that said, I also haven't played against a Fed USF yet; few people in my area play the Feds.

I typed this because I've heard reports from multiple stores that these things are filling up more than half of the OPs and seem to be on the winning side. If the fed USF is that strong this month, I'd like to pick apart what makes it strong and then find its best counters.

Just a fun bit of meta game theory-crafting.
 
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Rob Tsuk
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I'm playing around with a two Negh'Var unified strike force with the fed independent flagship on the generic, martok 8, khan 8, Joachim, projected stasis field, boarding party, alexander and some other stuff I don't quite recall.

Initial cloak will deny target lock which will prevent the fed alpha strike from hitting quite so hard. If possible I'd try to avoid a head on joust and try to come up behind one of their ships since without a lock there's no way for them to deal too much damage out their rear arcs.

After the first attack stay uncloaked and try to get the boarding party to land on one of the upgrade rich ships.
 
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Nathan Reukauf
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Well, look at the strengths behind a Fed USF.

High Skill captains.
Secondary Weapons.
Great crew and other upgrades.
Engage allows a second move.
Lot's of shields and hull on the two ships.
Lot's of actions.

What's the disadvantages?

No cloak, with poor evade.
Not very maneuverable.
Reliant upon upgrades for damage.
Needs to use upgrades to be powerful.
Single powerful attacks.


So from these things the biggest pain that can be inflicted is negating their upgrades and actions. Aux tokens, blocking their move and forcing them to be defensive with their actions come to mind.

Nothing specific here but what can really hurt is anything that can negate an attack. If you stop their power hits you will certainly get some counter attack abilities and with their low evade it will hurt a lot.

 
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Stephen Thorpe
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1.

IKS Gr'Oth - 18
Generic Captain - 0
Projected Stasis Field - 5
Korax - 3

Martok - 5

plus fill out remainder of fleet as you wish.

Projected Stasis Field comes during Action Phase and strips shields plus prevents half of the United Strike Force Attacking.

Use Martok to activate Korax to discard and Discard 2 crew from Ship hit by Stasis (you could use Klingon Boarding party instead and disable every upgrade).

2.

Use Reliant Khan and Ferengi missile launchers on a ship with Battle Stations.

Khan changes Battlestations to Criticals which hit the shields if unsaved and go straight through to the hull. Combine with Joachim to try get the best critical result.

A slightly less powerful version is Khan and Magnetic pulse on a ship with Battlestations.

 
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Daniel Hensel
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charles_skrobis wrote:
Well, there are lists of options, it really depends on which you'd prefer.

The most straight forward is to take advanced weapon system, and use it to stay cloaked to deny target locks, given that their torpedoes and massive arcs for them is what makes them the most threatening.

Now, if you want to get through kirk and/or piccard always having initiative and elite talents, chang is great for disabling them.

Now here's the real secret that people haven't realized yet.
Klingon boarding party is amazing against a federation 2 ship build.

When you look at the excelsior with piccard and his elite talent fully loaded with all the options, it really wrecks their day if you disable that talent, the 3 crew, and his torpedoes in 1 action. Especially cause he has to spend so much to rebuild the crew synergy that really makes the ship crazy, while you're attacking him to force his choices.

The last big thing is to avoid range 1 if at all possible. I can't tell you how many times I've watched the enterprise-d take a scan and a battle stations before engage to range 1 and throw a 7 die primary weapon attack with valtane re-rolls before the battle station convert to hits at skill 9 firing, and then Martok's negh'var disappears before he even gets to fire back regardless of his attack buff options.

Good point about Klingon Boarding Party. Here's a 2-ship Klingon build I just started working on built around making good use of Klingon Boarding party. How does this look?

I.K.S. Negh'Var (30)
Martok [8] (5)
Klingon Boarding Party (5)(UF)
Drex (4)
Concussive Charges (4)
Secondary Shield Emitters (3)
Once More Unto The Breach (5)(UF)

I.K.S. Koraga (26)
Worf (3)
Synon (5)
Barrage of Fire (5)
Projected Stasis Field (5)

Command Tokens (5)

Strike Force (5)
United Force (0)

Total: 100
 
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michael parsons
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XanderF wrote:
My eyebrows raise, as I have no idea how a Fed list is a challenge to beat...

I mean...competitive? Sure, no doubt - as of the December releases, I think all four factions can be COMPETITIVE (and the February release locks that in, IMHO).

But so hard to beat they need their own thread?

ROFLno.

A named and generic Vor'Cha with Advanced Weapons System? (Add Synon, Alexander, etc from there)

A named and generic Valdore with Romulan Tactical Officer? (Add Toreth with Massacre, Jarok with counterattack...use once, disable, discard for immunity, etc)

Dominion with Dukat on a Keldon, Breen, Kraxon??

Geeeeez...so many possibilities.

The Feds are solid, no doubt. But hardly overwhelming...


It not that feds are OP it's just that the two Admirals orders can be used most effectively by a Fed fleet.

I did very well with the following list.

Ent D 28
Picard 6
Scotty (UF)
Dimitri 3
Janice Rand 2
Feint 4
43 pts

Excelsior 26
Kirk 6
Spock (UF)
Obrien 2
Quantum Torps 6
Cheat death 3
Cochrane decel maneuver 3
46 pts

Token set 5 pt
strike force 5pts
United force 0
99 pts

So the deal works this way on the first pass Picard Scotty's and scans, Then uses Rand to feint and the Strike force order to Battlestation. He then fires first getting 4 dice +2 for scotty, +1 from the tokens + 1 from strike force (8 dice!). He hits on battle stations and gets to reroll 2 dice from Dimitri with and additional reroll from united force. The average of such a roll is slightly more than 7 hits with 8 hits not being uncommon. Against this the enemy gets 3 less defense dice which means if you're cloaked you're probably going to die. Best case a Romulan would need 3 evades to live or 2 with an evade action and would have at most 4 defense dice, 3 if I got into range 2. At range 2 a non evading Klingon would not have a chance.

In the three rounds I played only one ship survived the opening fire from the Ent D, an evading Valdore at range 2 and he had to use the token defense reroll and united force reroll to do it. Luckily he used up his luck there as the 14 dice from 3 Valdores did an average 7 damage and I managed to make one of my 3 defense rolls to keep the Big E alive for another turn. The next turn the feds flew trough the Romulan formation and the Romulans came about The Ent D took out Donatra with 360 fire (4 shots 4 hits) vs the 1 defense die, and the Excelsior let fly the a Quantum torp vs Mirok for 5 hits. Then the Big E went down leaving the Excesior getting and extra action and an extra attack die to clean up. Not once did kirk need to cheat death.
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