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While looking around on the internet, there are apparently a large number of people out there who are looking for articles and websites which claim that the new Pope, Pope Francis, is the Anti-Christ. One of the sites that I wandered into had a fascinating rebuttal about this conspiracy, which was well informed both historically and (to my atheistic eye) doctrinally.

QUESTION: Is the pope the Antichrist?

ANSWER: While this question may seem ridiculous to many people, you might be surprised to discover just how many Protestants actually believe it, or are at least suspicious of it. The notion comes from the first Protestant reformer himself – Martin Luther – in the sixteenth century, who asserted that the office of the papacy is the Antichrist. That's not to say any particular pope, but the office of the papacy itself. So when German Protestants began to mix with English Protestants in the United States during the nineteenth century, you can imagine what an explosive combination this created. As new American-style Protestant denominations were formed, the office of the papacy went from being the Antichrist on a purely philosophical level, to the actual incarnation of evil itself!

This notion has become very popular among some Baptist, Evangelical and Pentecostal groups in the United States, and is a bit humorous when you really stop and think about it. Before we start levelling the accusation of "Antichrist" at anybody, or any office, it might help to actually understand what the Bible has to say about it. After all, the whole idea of "Antichrist" is a Biblical concept.

So what does the Bible say about the Antichrist? Well, for starters, the Bible tells us that the "spirit of antichrist" was alive and well even during the Apostolic age (1st John 2:18). It also tells us that in order to be antichrist in any way, one must deny that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Jewish Messiah (1st John 2:22). One must also deny that God the Son came to earth in the form of flesh and blood (1st John 4:3; 2nd John 1:7). These are the only four times the word "antichrist" appears in the Scriptures. So based on the Biblical definition, to be an antichrist (or even THE Antichrist) one must deny that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah and one must deny that God the Son came to earth in the form of human flesh. Sorry, that's just the Biblical definition, and since the term "Antichrist" is a Biblical term, just like the term "Christ" itself, it has no real meaning outside this Biblical definition.

Now since every pope since the time of St. Peter has affirmed that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messianic Son of God, that sort of disqualifies every pope in history from being an antichrist. Of course, the office of the papacy itself was literally founded on Saint Peter's affirmation that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messianic Son of God (Matthew 16:15-19), so that disqualifies the papal office from being antichrist. Since the pope literally teaches, and his office is literally founded upon, the belief that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messianic Son of God, it is literally impossible (in every Biblical sense) for the pope, or his papal office, to be the Antichrist in any way. Again, sorry, but the Bible speaks for itself here. To assert that the pope or the papacy is somehow, in any way, the Antichrist, is to completely deny the plain and clear teaching of the Bible on this matter. Now, if some people want to go ahead and call the pope the Antichrist anyway, then they can go ahead, but in doing so, the rest of us need to understand they are directly contradicting the Bible when they do this.


-From CATHOLICISM FOR PROTESTANTS by Shane Schaetzel
http://catholicozarks.blogspot.com/2013/09/is-pope-francis-a...

Darilian
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What the hell have you been smoking, Dar? Sorry, Dar. What have you been smoking, Shane?
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she2 wrote:
What the hell have you been smoking, Dar? Sorry, Dar. What have you been smoking, Shane?


I've been catching up on the internet's greatest conspiracy theories this week.

It's called avoiding working on my book, because I'm frustrated. But given that my recent RSP'ing is going over like a lead balloon, maybe I should go back to that.....



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Darilian wrote:
she2 wrote:
What the hell have you been smoking, Dar? Sorry, Dar. What have you been smoking, Shane?


I've been catching up on the internet's greatest conspiracy theories this week.

It's called avoiding working on my book, because I'm frustrated. But given that my recent RSP'ing is going over like a lead balloon, maybe I should go back to that.....



Darilian


So what's the novel about? I'm intrigued by this.
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she2 wrote:
Darilian wrote:
she2 wrote:
What the hell have you been smoking, Dar? Sorry, Dar. What have you been smoking, Shane?


I've been catching up on the internet's greatest conspiracy theories this week.

It's called avoiding working on my book, because I'm frustrated. But given that my recent RSP'ing is going over like a lead balloon, maybe I should go back to that.....



Darilian


So what's the novel about? I'm intrigued by this.


Its dark fantasy in the vein of Jack Vance, Ursula LeGuin and Gene Wolfe.

In other words, its pretentious and mendacious crap. I'm trying to get rid of the most '-ious' (atrocious?) aspects and make it a bit more readable.

I guess I could keep audacious. Maybe even tenacious. But the others-

MUST GO.

Darilian

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Darilian wrote:
she2 wrote:
Darilian wrote:
she2 wrote:
What the hell have you been smoking, Dar? Sorry, Dar. What have you been smoking, Shane?


I've been catching up on the internet's greatest conspiracy theories this week.

It's called avoiding working on my book, because I'm frustrated. But given that my recent RSP'ing is going over like a lead balloon, maybe I should go back to that.....



Darilian


So what's the novel about? I'm intrigued by this.


Its dark fantasy in the vein of Jack Vance, Ursula LeGuin and Gene Wolfe.

In other words, its pretentious and mendacious crap. I'm trying to get rid of the most '-ious' (atrocious?) aspects and make it a bit more readable.

I guess I could keep audacious. Maybe even tenacious. But the others-

MUST GO.

Darilian



Well, I like the Vance-LeGuin-Wolfe-ious part so you can keep that too.
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she2 wrote:
Darilian wrote:
she2 wrote:
Darilian wrote:
she2 wrote:
What the hell have you been smoking, Dar? Sorry, Dar. What have you been smoking, Shane?


I've been catching up on the internet's greatest conspiracy theories this week.

It's called avoiding working on my book, because I'm frustrated. But given that my recent RSP'ing is going over like a lead balloon, maybe I should go back to that.....



Darilian


So what's the novel about? I'm intrigued by this.


Its dark fantasy in the vein of Jack Vance, Ursula LeGuin and Gene Wolfe.

In other words, its pretentious and mendacious crap. I'm trying to get rid of the most '-ious' (atrocious?) aspects and make it a bit more readable.

I guess I could keep audacious. Maybe even tenacious. But the others-

MUST GO.

Darilian



Well, I like the Vance-LeGuin-Wolfe-ious part so you can keep that too.


One of the biggest problems I'm having is that its actually hard to describe without feeling like I'm giving too much away. Its a lot like Charles Yu's "How to live safely in a science fictional universe'- its sort of indescribable unless you've read it, which makes it hard to talk about. Which means I should just finish up the last few bits, complete the glossary, and stop picking at it.

But basically, its about a warrior type who lives in a city state that lies along an enormous river that carved a giant canyon that extends for weeks of travel to get downstream. In these city states, competeing warrior fraternities fight the honor of their household gods, while others scheme to regain the connections to the divine jinnkami that have been lost since the revolt of the Red Man. This particular warrior, Xam, is sent on several quests to get miscellaneous items that he is told by his Green god Saminet are essential for the survival of his fighting lodge. The problem is that he is asked to do this over and over and over and over again.

That's the set up. Kind of.

Darilian
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For me the best part of the OP is the age-old dilemma: "there is a large number" or "there are a large number." I couldn't really be bothered to read past the sentence that sparked the debate in my head for the umpteenth time.

"But Josh, you claim only to care about spelling! Why should this grammatical matter concern you even slightly?"
"I don't really care--it's just that once I read something like that and get stuck in a little loop thinking about whether or not it's grammatically correct, I can't really get myself out of the rut until I write some hideously off-topic and uninteresting internal dialogue."
"Well, are you better now?"
"I wouldn't really say 'better,' but I think I can move on without giving the whole 'is vs. are' controversy any more mental real estate for a while."
"How long?"
"Until I see something that reminds me of it again, I suppose."
"Is you sure?"
"Go fuck yourself!"
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MisterCranky wrote:
For me the best part of the OP is the age-old dilemma: "there is a large number" or "there are a large number." I couldn't really be bothered to read past the sentence that sparked the debate in my head for the umpteenth time.

"But Josh, you claim only to care about spelling! Why should this grammatical matter concern you even slightly?"
"I don't really care--it's just that once I read something like that and get stuck in a little loop thinking about whether or not it's grammatically correct, I can't really get myself out of the rut until I write some hideously off-topic and uninteresting internal dialogue."
"Well, are you better now?"
"I wouldn't really say 'better,' but I think I can move on without giving the whole 'is vs. are' controversy any more mental real estate for awhile."
"How long?"
"Until I see something that reminds me of it again, I suppose."
"Is you sure?"
"Go fuck yourself!"


So- Josh-

Want to edit my book? Since you seem to otherwise be so lost without something to rage against.

Darilian
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Picaro -> rogue, rascal

picaresque

Cugel's Saga
Cugel is my favourite character. Blind to his considerable failings, of unceasing energy, endlessly inventive and a play-thing of the Fates.

Have you got a Cugelesque Novela picaresca in the making?
I want to read it.
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Xam isn't Cugel, but there are some similarities. I'm a huge fan of Vance's 'Dying Earth' stories, and they're definitely a big influence on me, as are his Lyonesse books, LeGuin's Earthsea, and Wolfe's Books of the New Sun.

The good news is that while shamelessly simultaneously engaging in false modesty and demonstrating that I have the self image of a microbe, I've come up with a fix that I think will work.

When in doubt, start in media res. Prologues are for wussies.

Darilian
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Darilian wrote:
One of the biggest problems I'm having is that its actually hard to describe without feeling like I'm giving too much away. Its a lot like Charles Yu's "How to live safely in a science fictional universe'- its sort of indescribable unless you've read it, which makes it hard to talk about. Which means I should just finish up the last few bits, complete the glossary, and stop picking at it.


Whoa whoa whoa.... your book needs a glossary? Will I be forced to use any of the glossary words in a sentence to show I understand them?
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GameCrossing wrote:
Darilian wrote:
One of the biggest problems I'm having is that its actually hard to describe without feeling like I'm giving too much away. Its a lot like Charles Yu's "How to live safely in a science fictional universe'- its sort of indescribable unless you've read it, which makes it hard to talk about. Which means I should just finish up the last few bits, complete the glossary, and stop picking at it.


Whoa whoa whoa.... your book needs a glossary? Will I be forced to use any of the glossary words in a sentence to show I understand them?


Only if you're applying to work for me as an intern and keep up my RSPing while I go offline to finish this sucker.

It's unpaid, but you'll get cookies.

Darilian
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Darilian wrote:


So- Josh-

Want to edit my book? Since you seem to otherwise be so lost without something to rage against.

Darilian


Rage? You thought that was rage? Oh man, I've obviously been taking it far too easy on this forum.

Also, to answer your question: no thank you. I have enough trouble editing my own posts, let alone somebody else's book.
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I'll edit it, as long as I am unemployed!

Josh is a good first get, but not as good as me providing I can stay sober for 3 weeks.

3 weeks? Holy shit, we might be in Tripp territory!


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There are other biblical things that disqualify the pope, but yeah, that's a really good start.
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So Dar, what you really are saying is that Martin Luther was a punk.
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Darilian wrote:
Now since every pope since the time of St. Peter has affirmed that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messianic Son of God, that sort of disqualifies every pope in history from being an antichrist. Of course, the office of the papacy itself was literally founded on Saint Peter's affirmation that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messianic Son of God (Matthew 16:15-19), so that disqualifies the papal office from being antichrist.


Sloppy answer to a stupid question.

The Bible doesn't say that the Anti-Christ will not (publicly) affirm that Jesus is the Messiah, just that he will at some point (possibly even privately) deny that he is.

Every Pope could have spent lots of private time denying Christ for all we know.
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Dolphinandrew wrote:

Sloppy answer to a stupid question.

The Bible doesn't say that the Anti-Christ will not (publicly) affirm that Jesus is the Messiah, just that he will at some point (possibly even privately) deny that he is.

Every Pope could have spent lots of private time denying Christ for all we know.


And out come the Martin-Luther-lickers
 
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TheChin! wrote:
Dolphinandrew wrote:

Sloppy answer to a stupid question.

The Bible doesn't say that the Anti-Christ will not (publicly) affirm that Jesus is the Messiah, just that he will at some point (possibly even privately) deny that he is.

Every Pope could have spent lots of private time denying Christ for all we know.


And out come the Martin-Luther-lickers


Martin-Luther could also have enjoyed his time off by indulging in some Christ-denial.

It's a fun hobby, is what I'm saying.
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I thought the link between the pope (the office, not the holder) and the Anti-Christ is as old as the Roman Catholic chruch.
 
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Darilian wrote:
Xam isn't Cugel, but there are some similarities. I'm a huge fan of Vance's 'Dying Earth' stories, and they're definitely a big influence on me, as are his Lyonesse books, LeGuin's Earthsea, and Wolfe's Books of the New Sun.

The good news is that while shamelessly simultaneously engaging in false modesty and demonstrating that I have the self image of a microbe, I've come up with a fix that I think will work.

When in doubt, start in media res. Prologues are for wussies.

Darilian


Have you read Matthew Hughes "Hengist Hapthorn" stories and novels? If anybody has captured the Vance style, voice, and sensibility, it's Hughes.
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bjlillo wrote:
Quote:
"To submit to the Roman Pontiff, we declare, say, define, and pronounce to be absolutely necessary to every human creature to salvation." - Bull Unam Santam of Pope Boniface VIII


That defies the most fundamental teaching for salvation and the single most important reason for Christ's coming: salvation through grace and faith alone. It also places the Papacy above God, exactly as prophesied in Thessalonians 2:4.


You're overstating things a bit on the second point (although I think you're correct on the first). One interpretation of this is that the Pope is putting himself above God; another is that he is saying that this is one of God's requirements.

Take as another example the command that wives be submissive to their husbands. A man who tells his wife that she can't go to Heaven unless she's submissive to him could be declaring that he has some authority to decide whether she's saved but he could also be expressing his belief that obedience to that command is either necessary in and of itself or else is a fruit that would be visible if she were, in fact, saved.

Or he could just be a top.
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bjlillo wrote:
The concept of "Sola Scriptura" is one of the defining principles of Protestantism. It basically says that Scripture alone contains God's Word and that it is the entirety of God's Word that we have revealed to us here on earth. There are multiple admonitions throughout Scripture which warn us not to add anything to it.


Though of course Sola Scriptura is more or less an addition to it in much the same way any pope's words are.

bjlillo wrote:
For the Pope to ignore those warnings and add preconditions onto salvation which aren't God's places the Papacy at least on equal footing if not above God.


Only if God didn't tell him to do it.
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bjlillo wrote:
The concept of "Sola Scriptura" is one of the defining principles of Protestantism. It basically says that Scripture alone contains God's Word and that it is the entirety of God's Word that we have revealed to us here on earth. There are multiple admonitions throughout Scripture which warn us not to add anything to it.

For the Pope to ignore those warnings and add preconditions onto salvation which aren't God's places the Papacy at least on equal footing if not above God.


When people have a disagreement over what the Bible (or something else) says, it's not reasonable to judge the intentions of one party by what their actions would imply about the intentions of the other.

You subscribe to Sola Scriptura, so for you to make any sort of proclamation of what is necessary for salvation (other than what is explicitly in the Bible) would imply you putting yourself on par or above God. But someone who believes that the Catholic Church is God's Church, that the Pope is, as Vicar of Saint Peter, spoken directly to by God and thus able to speak on God's behalf, the same action could simply mean acting as God's vessel.
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