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Subject: House Rule Idea rss

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Daniel Kotzin
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I don't understand why the Adventurer costs 6. I don't think it's worth that much. So I was thinking of making it 5 or even 4. What think?
 
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I think not.
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Fridjof B
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You could try that, house rules are free :-)

I believe the Adventurer is a strong card, eventually giving you the opportunity to buy "the good card" often if you play well.

On the other hand I would propose to increase the price of the Chapel, which I believe is underpriced.
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Chris Schumann
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Hi Daniel,

Welcome to BGG!

In case you don't know, Dominion is one of the most developed games of all time. All of the early cards were playtested extensively, and their abilities and costs adjusted very carefully.

Adventurer is a very powerful card if your deck is rich with Silver and Gold, so it must cost enough to reflect that power. At 6, it now competes with Gold with is also a very powerful card.

You are certainly welcome to play as you like, but I do not think you will get a lot of support here, especially for cards as old as Adventurer.

In my mind 5 is a little bit low, but you can't put a cost of 5.5 on a card. 4 is just crazy as Adventurer always gets you at least 2 coin to spend, and up to 6 unless you have Platinum in play. It also interacts really well with other Treasures like Bank, Philosopher's Stone, and Potion.
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Matt E
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Although Chris is right about Dominion being a well-tested and well-developed game, I disagree that Adventurer is a powerful card. Also, just because it's one of the oldest published cards does not necessarily mean it's better balanced. In general, Donald got better at making cards as he went along. At least in 2-player games, Adventurer is generally acknowledged as one of the weakest Kingdom cards.

Adventurer can be powerful, but you have to work to make it powerful by removing Coppers from your deck and adding better Treasures. In general, cards that you have to work to make good can cost less than those that are good all by themselves. I think it's perfectly reasonable to test Adventurer at a cost of $5. If it's too crazy or if it leads to people always pursuing a boring Treasure-and-Adventurers strategy, just change it back to $6.
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Matt E
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Sorry to double-post, but I'm going to expound on the topic of Adventurer a little more.

Donald X. Vaccarino (the guy who created Dominion) has been kind enough to write several essays on the creation of the game and the development and testing of all its cards. However as luck would have it, he has said precious little about Adventurer. Based on my many thousands of games of Dominion, I am going to make some educated guesses about why it costs $6.

If you have a powerful engine (a deck that plays many Actions in a turn in order to draw itself and/or play powerful cards every turn), there is little reason to buy Adventurer, since you're already drawing your Treasures anyway. So Adventurer is generally better in a Treasure-centric deck. In general, players tend to find Treasure-centric strategies to be less interesting and fun than Action-centric strategies.

The thing that hurts Adventurer's power most is that in order to be a really powerful card, it needs Treasure cards better than Silver in your deck. In most games, that means Gold. At $6, every Adventurer you buy is a Gold you could have bought. Ouch! But if Adventurer cost $5, you'd be able to spend at least a few of your $5 purchases on Adventurers and buy Gold with all your $6 and $7 turns. I don't know this for sure, but I'd guess that a deck with just Treasure, Victory cards, and a few Adventurers would be pretty powerful at that point, but also a pretty boring strategy. So it's possible that it costs $6 because otherwise it would lead to boring games.

Another consideration is that Adventurer has a few subtle effects that boost its power, especially in games with more players. First, it skips past non-Copper junk that your opponents have left on top of your deck. Example: Bureaucrat. In a 2-player game Bureaucrat isn't a huge deal because chances are good that you're only getting one Bureaucrat played against you every few turns, which is usually ignorable. But when you potentially have a Bureaucrat played against you almost every turn and sometimes several times a turn, Adventurer's ability to cycle past those Victory cards on your deck becomes priceless.

Second, it skips past Curses your opponents have given you. This only really matters if you've cleaned out the Copper from your deck, because unless Adventurer pulls at least $4 worth of Treasure, you'd have been better off with Gold. Usually in a 3 or 4 player game where several players are playing Witches early and often, you want to keep your Coppers so that you can more easily buy Duchies and Estates to (hopefully) end the game on 3 piles with a victory. But with Adventurers, you can potentially pull off Province buys even with all that junk in your deck as long as you trash most of your Coppers and have some Silver and Gold.

So in summary:

1. Any card which encourages a Treasure-centric strategy AND shrugs off several attacks has the potential to encourage a boring strategy where most of your buys are Silver and Gold. The $6 cost helps counter that by conflicting directly with Gold. (As a side note, many of the Recommended Sets of 10 that include Adventurer also contain Action cards that can gain you lots of Silver and Gold.)

2. Adventurer is more powerful in Attack-heavy games with several players, but that power is subtle; because you don't draw the cards you skipped past in your next hand, you may not realize how much that cycling has benefitted you.

Again, this is all just educated guesswork. Hopefully you found it interesting. Happy Dominioning!
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Adventurer behaves in general, quite similarly to Harvest - it skips over some number of cards in your deck and gives you some amount of money, typically between $2 and $4 and doesn't really do anything else. Harvest is one of the weaker $5 cards, some of the highest rated players (online) even citing it as the weakest $5 card.

However there are a few notable advantages Adventurer has over Harvest. LFN has done at great job of explaining those. In a deck with trashing, it's much stronger, able to regularly draw $4 or $5 of money. And when Platinums are around, it can become extremely powerful. With some trashing, fishing out Platinum and Golds regularly makes for a very powerful card.

Would Adventurer have been broken if it cost $5? Probably not. Should it have cost $5? Perhaps. I believe Adventurer was moved from a later expansion to the Base game, and at $6 in the base game it's probably not worth it. But with some of the expansion (especially Prosperity) it might be a little too strong, or something at $6.
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Chris Schumann
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How does Adventurer perform in an Alchemy kingdom?
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Matt E
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Whizkid wrote:
How does Adventurer perform in an Alchemy kingdom?

Man, good question. Its ability to pull Potions might help buy those more expensive Potion-cost cards more easily, but I'm not sure it's a bigger help than Gold in most cases. I think I'd usually prefer Apothecary for that.

Its ability to pull Philosopher's Stones is tempered by the fact that Philosopher's Stone decks don't usually want to trash their Copper. Often they want more.

Overall I'd guess Alchemy isn't a huge help for Adventurer, although I don't think I've bought Adventurer in an Alchemy-heavy game lately.
 
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Adventurer at $6 does compete with Gold. In many cases, you're better off buying Gold instead, as it doesn't take up an action that can be precious (ie. no way to do "branch actions", so you can only play 1 terminal per turn). It's also a "wiff" if you only get 2 Copper out of it, or when you add expansions, worse if you get Treasure cards that are undesirable, or otherwise doesn't add any coins (such as Potion from Alchemy).

However, it skips past "bad cards" such as Curses, dead weight Victory cards, and even action cards that you couldn't possibly play more than one of if no branch actions, action cards that weren't useful given that hand, or action cards that are no longer needed (ie, they were good beginning of the game, but not now, such as Chapel). It does cycle your deck quicker. It's also a "hail mary" of sorts, if you want to risk getting $2, or $3 that would've been a Gold, or $4 to $6 for "good hits".

.

Interesting fact about your $5 variant... Dominion: Prosperity has a Kingdom card called Venture..
costs $5, is a Treasure, provides $1... NOT an Action.
When you play this, reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Treasure. Discard the other cards. Play that Treasure.

This is sort of a "mini-adventurer", or "Adventurer lite" in fucntion. Or a partial adventurer, literally.... adventurer

This is superior in the following ways:
1) At $5, this frees you up to get Gold at $6.
2) does NOT require an action
3) multiple Ventures can "chain" into each other
4) Venture itself is worth $1.

However, Adventurer still has the following pros:
1) Venture only hits one Treasure, whereas Adventurer will play 2
2) Venture forces you to play the Treasures that are revealed. Adventurer just puts them into your hand, giving you more flexibility when you run into Treasure Kingdom cards that have special effects you may not want to play, or may want to play in a certain order instead.

Long story short, a lot of Dom players say Venture is what Adventurer should've been, but Adventurer still has a place.


greetingsfrombergen wrote:
On the other hand I would propose to increase the price of the Chapel, which I believe is underpriced.
Chapel by function really is a $6 card... it's strong, but I hear the design philosophy was to make it cheap so anyone can get it, and use it as a catch up mechanism. If Chapel really costs $6, then pretty much those who can get to it first would have the advantage and probably win anyways.
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LastFootnote wrote:
Whizkid wrote:
How does Adventurer perform in an Alchemy kingdom?

Man, good question. Its ability to pull Potions might help buy those more expensive Potion-cost cards more easily, but I'm not sure it's a bigger help than Gold in most cases. I think I'd usually prefer Apothecary for that.

Its ability to pull Philosopher's Stones is tempered by the fact that Philosopher's Stone decks don't usually want to trash their Copper. Often they want more.

Overall I'd guess Alchemy isn't a huge help for Adventurer, although I don't think I've bought Adventurer in an Alchemy-heavy game lately.
One case I can think up of is you'll want Potions so you can top deck all your played Alchemists. Once the game goes down the road, you're less likely to be able to draw or start off with at least one Potion each time.

Otherwise, it may go a long way towards the more expensive potion cards like Possession and Golem. Golem is actually a pretty sweet card, but I'd wager that while obviously, Possession isn't always great, it may be too much work for games that would've been worth to bother with.
 
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Mike Miller

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ackmondual wrote:
One case I can think up of is you'll want Potions so you can top deck all your played Alchemists. Once the game goes down the road, you're less likely to be able to draw or start off with at least one Potion each time.


Wouldn't the better play be buying a second Potion most of the time over an Adventurer?
 
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pinkymadigan wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
One case I can think up of is you'll want Potions so you can top deck all your played Alchemists. Once the game goes down the road, you're less likely to be able to draw or start off with at least one Potion each time.


Wouldn't the better play be buying a second Potion most of the time over an Adventurer?
That's what I would do. Did my statement sound like I was advocating Adv. over Potion?
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