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Subject: 'Battle back' and terrain dice? rss

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MATTHEW SPRING
England
Truro
Cornwall
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Pray excuse the noobish question, but having played the C&C family of games for years I had a crisis of confidence about this rule yesterday.

My enemy's unit attacks from a hill. It is attacking my unit in a wood. If my unit survives the attack without retreating, do I calculate any battle back dice 'terrain reduction' (see below) according to:

a) my terrain ;
b) his terrain ;
c) both?

Logically, I'm not actually advancing into his hex - he's trying to advance into mine - so I feel fairly sure it must be simply a) my terrain . It's just that the wording of the rule says that 'The attacking player’s unit, that conducted the initial attack, is now considered in a defending posture' - which gives me pause for thought.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Cheers,
Matt

P.S. Here's the relevant para from the rules, p.12:

11. Battle Back: The defending enemy unit may Battle Back
against the attacking unit, if one or more of the defending unit’s
blocks survived the melee combat attack and the defending unit
did not retreat from its hex. The attacking player’s unit, that
conducted the initial attack, is now considered in a defending
posture.
During a Battle Back the unit calculates its strength, any terrain
battle dice reduction, rolls the battle dice, determines hits and
retreats, and applies them in the same manner as the attacker.
 
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Charles Vasey
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hismhs wrote:
Pray excuse the noobish question, but having played the C&C family of games for years I had a crisis of confidence about this rule yesterday.

My enemy's unit attacks from a hill. It is attacking my unit in a wood. If my unit survives the attack without retreating, do I calculate any battle back dice 'terrain reduction' (see below) according to:

a) my terrain ;
b) his terrain ;
c) both?

Logically, I'm not actually advancing into his hex - he's trying to advance into mine - so I feel fairly sure it must be simply a) my terrain . It's just that the wording of the rule says that 'The attacking player’s unit, that conducted the initial attack, is now considered in a defending posture' - which gives me pause for thought.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Cheers,
Matt

P.S. Here's the relevant para from the rules, p.12:

11. Battle Back: The defending enemy unit may Battle Back
against the attacking unit, if one or more of the defending unit’s
blocks survived the melee combat attack and the defending unit
did not retreat from its hex. The attacking player’s unit, that
conducted the initial attack, is now considered in a defending
posture.
During a Battle Back the unit calculates its strength, any terrain
battle dice reduction, rolls the battle dice, determines hits and
retreats, and applies them in the same manner as the attacker.


I cannot help you with the question at the moment, but are you the Matthew Spring who wrote "With Zeal and with Bayonets Only", if so, chapeau!
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Mark McG
Australia
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both, and in both combats.

In the game sequence, under Melee Combat Procedure see

Quote:
6. Apply Terrain Battle Dice Reduction (if any):

The terrain on which the target unit is on and in some cases the terrain the attacking unit is on may reduce the number of battle dice rolled in melee combat. Reduce the number of battle dice rolled accordingly.
Refer to the section on Terrain for battle dice adjustments.


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Read the rulebook, plan for all contingencies, and…read the rulebook again.
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hismhs wrote:
My enemy's unit attacks from a hill. It is attacking my unit in a wood. If my unit survives the attack without retreating, do I calculate any battle back dice 'terrain reduction' (see below) according to:

a) my terrain ;
b) his terrain ;
c) both?

Logically, I'm not actually advancing into his hex - he's trying to advance into mine - so I feel fairly sure it must be simply a) my terrain ...

P.S. Here's the relevant para from the rules, p.12:

11. Battle Back: The defending enemy unit may Battle Back
against the attacking unit, if one or more of the defending unit’s
blocks survived the melee combat attack and the defending unit
did not retreat from its hex. The attacking player’s unit, that
conducted the initial attack, is now considered in a defending
posture.
During a Battle Back the unit calculates its strength, any terrain
battle dice reduction, rolls the battle dice, determines hits and
retreats, and applies them in the same manner as the attacker.


Hello, Matthew,

In answer to your question, I've always understood and played that, even when battling back, the terrain in both hexes for the attacker and defender is taken into account for modifying the battle dice. I've put into bold text what I think is the relevant passage.

I don't know about logic, but I think that is the letter and spirit of the rule.

I hope that helps!



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Arthur Switalski
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San Carlos
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Both from what I recall. The reduction is based on your unit type, your terrain and defender's terrain.

For example (where you are the attacker battling back):
Infantry battling out of wood (your hex): no dice reduction
+
Infantry battling up a hill (defender's hex): -1 die
Total: -1 die reduction for you

If you had cavalry units in a forest that were battling back the equation would be:
Cavalry attacking out of forest (your hex): -2 dice reduction
+
Cavalry attacking up hill (defender's hex): -1 die reduction
Total: -3 dice

Etc.
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MATTHEW SPRING
England
Truro
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Charles Vasey wrote:
I cannot help you with the question at the moment, but are you the Matthew Spring who wrote "With Zeal and with Bayonets Only", if so, chapeau!


Indeed I am, thanks! And coming from the gentleman who designed the wonderful Unhappy King Charles, that's a fine compliment!
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MATTHEW SPRING
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Truro
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Many thanks all for the clarifications!

That both players' terrain is factored into both battles is a big revelation to me - I wonder whether this was the case in C&C:Ancients too? If so I was playing that badly wrong for years...

This is presumably why Battle Back is optional, then:

11. Battle Back: The defending enemy unit may [my emphasis] Battle Back against the attacking unit, if one or more of the defending unit’s blocks survived the melee combat attack and the defending unit did not retreat from its hex.

Cheers all very much!!
Matt

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Mark McG
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hismhs wrote:

That both players' terrain is factored into both battles is a big revelation to me - I wonder whether this was the case in C&C:Ancients too? If so I was playing that badly wrong for years...


Yes it is, so battling uphill is different to battling back downhill. Auxilia on a hill in a very pleasant thing.
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Robert Taylor-Smith
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hismhs wrote:
Many thanks all for the clarifications!

This is presumably why Battle Back is optional, then:

11. Battle Back: The defending enemy unit may [my emphasis] Battle Back against the attacking unit, if one or more of the defending unit’s blocks survived the melee combat attack and the defending unit did not retreat from its hex.

Cheers all very much!!
Matt



The 'may' reasons:

In Ancients you might want to avoid hitting the attacking Elephant and starting a rampage. It might lose you the game.

In Napoleonics you might not want to battle back an adjacent enemy with one die and get a flag result when holding the 'Give Them The Cold Steel' card. Also a few die battle back might retreat the enemy out of LOS or into good defensive terrain and save the enemy unit from your multi-unit fistful of dice counterattack. Having the attacking unit stay where it is might be a better option for your upcoming turn.
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